Monorail Expansion...maybe..

[righttrack]

Bus transportation is available on-demand, anywhere needed. Its hard to justify anything when busses are plentiful and can go just about anywhere in minutes.

I do love the magic of the monorail, but I understand why they have held back, thusfar.

 

[no2apprentice]

Imagine if Walt had settled for trams to continue to link Disneyland with the Disneyland Hotel?

EXACTLY! DL monorail - One loop with two stops. No transfers, no mulitple stops. It works!

WDW - Expansion with multiple stops, with several transfers. It's not efficient and it won't work well. It's not that it's a monorail, it's a matter of a fixed rail system. This is why I believe light rail may not be the answer, either. Maybe with the right safeguards for breakdowns and peak times, it might, but the more a system is expanded upon for additional demands, the higher the price tag.

Someone mentioned in an earler post what Walt would want to do. That's easy.

Monorail is expanded to AKL. Now it costs more to stay at AKL because each resort pays for it's transportation. Now instead of taking 15 minutes to take a bus from AKL directly to MK, I have to take the monorail to Epcot, transfer to take the monorail to TTC, transfer to take the monorail to MK. Now it takes (I'll be generous) 30 to 40 minutes, and I have to transfer twice.

Just a guess on my part, but I believe Walt would not have wanted to do that, nor would he have expected his guests to have to do that.

I'm not trying to be a naysayer to the monorail. I really like the monorail. I think it's cool. I love being in Chef Mickey's and watching it glide by through the Contemporary. When I was young and we went to DL (many times), we always made a point of riding on the monorail, even though we couldn't afford to stay at the DL Hotel.

But as much as I like the monorail, I also realize that there are limitations to it's use. Tyler has posted many first hand observations on how the monorail is limited to handle the unique guest flow at WDW, with the morning and evening crowds. Tyler has also posted many first hand observations on how guests (and I've seen this myself) seem to turn off logic and common sense when they are on vacation (or perhaps with some of them it's all the time), especially at transfers or just finding the right bus.

Would I like to see a monorail expansion? Sure. But not at the cost of $800 million to $1 billion, for something that would not be efficient for the problems of guest flow at WDW. For that type of money, build something that works, and works well. In the meantime, stick with the buses. Just put on monitors and play highlights of scenes from Disney films to keep the kids quiet.

 

[goofyman]

Yes, you're excused.
First of all, this is a forum. People can post on it. If you do not like me replying to your post with reasons why it wouldn't work, then you shouldn't be posting.
Second, I did give the cost of business and return.
Third, parts and technology DO CHANGE, but the cost of materials only goes up. Someone quoted $50 million a mile. Well, thats fine, for Vegas. Don't forget that this is all swampland, and the pylons have to be buried pretty deep to be safe. Its more like $100 million per mile for extending the monorail in WDW.
Fourth, your opinion isn't an educated one. It was one based on "what you want to see". An educated opinion means you have done research into what you are talking about, and therefore have educated yourself as to both the pros and cons. Since you refuse to read the long, well thought and well argued previous threads, you are refusing to educate yourself on the subject, therefore your opinion is just based on the cool factor.

Actually you are WRONG again. My Point was I can post what ever I want . yet you told me not to post unless I READ, READ your own replies. You can argue my points when you want.Thats what make this fun. The point is you put everyone elses opinon down and dont look at the big picture. If you did. ( And maybe read some of the other post) You would know that there are possiblites of adding infurstructer that can lead to more profits sometime. So who is Posting what they what to see or not see? I never said I wanted a expansion. I just dont like when poster say "NEVER" Sometime a positive attitude goes a long way. My opinions are the same as yours.OPINIONS none of which anyones here are based on PURE fact unless you can tell me you are a cival engeneer. and all speculation. You told me not to post unless I read. I did and I dont agree, that is my OPINON! That is what I took offence to not your reply. I resect everones opinion My thoughts are based on facts that I know about business yours are spcetulation on your thoughts NO facts. If you dont like this subject then dont post .
And for you info materials DO NOT always go up. New technologoes are sometimes less expessive.

 

[psuchad]

How about chairlifts to the parks? They only need to build a few towers compared to monorail pillers.

 

[maxime29]

I'm all for any monorail expansion. The buses have never been as efficient for us when traveling to DTD, MGM, AK, BB, etc...The monorail for both MK and EPCOT have been mostly prompt for us. I see the points of everyone and believe each is valid; I guess at this point it's more of weighing the options and making a decision.

 

[Thrawn]

First of all, paragraphs and spell check are your friends.

Actually you are WRONG again. My Point was I can post what ever I want . yet you told me not to post unless I READ, READ your own replies.

How I am wrong? I did not post anything that was in terms of right and wrong.

You can argue my points when you want.Thats what make this fun.

Appearantly, I can't, because you have a coronary when I do.

The point is you put everyone elses opinon down and dont look at the big picture. If you did. ( And maybe read some of the other post) You would know that there are possiblites of adding infurstructer that can lead to more profits sometime.

Ok, explain how adding the monorail to more parks and resorts will add revenue. Remember, the monorail ride itself is free, you cannot charge for it. If you say "I'm going to raise room rates", well you have to pay off the cost first, which is at least $1 billion.

So who is Posting what they what to see or not see? I never said I wanted a expansion. I just dont like when poster say "NEVER" Sometime a positive attitude goes a long way.

Positive attitude? I don't want Disney spending money on something that would be a BAD form of mass transit, as well as extremely expensive. I'd rather them take the $1 billion+ and build a bunch of e-tickets. You don't have to say you want a monorail expansion, your tone of your posts implies it.

My opinions are the same as yours.OPINIONS none of which anyones here are based on PURE fact unless you can tell me you are a cival engeneer. and all speculation.

Where did I post opinions? I posted well argued and researched information that is easily available to anyone. Also, if you take the costs of the original monorail system, and then adjust for inflation and multiply by the size needed, you will get the cost which everyone has been describing.

You told me not to post unless I read. I did and I dont agree, that is my OPINON! That is what I took offence to not your reply. I resect everones opinion

Excuse me, but you don't respect everyone's opinion. If you did, you wouldn't be having this hissy fit because the facts don't fit what you want. I also did not attack anyone for saying "i want a monorail expansion." If you want it, thats fine. However, I did post showing why it won't happen and why it is a bad idea.

My thoughts are based on facts that I know about business yours are spcetulation on your thoughts NO facts. If you dont like this subject then dont post.

No, I tend to disagree. None of what I posted is speculation. And as far as what you "know" about business. Well, I'd hate to know what business you run. I can't imagine a business owner being such an awful typist.
I run my own computer business, and we are doing very well. Just me and a partner, making six figures a month. We have been contacted a couple of times by major websites about buying us out. Do not try to lecture me about knowing about business.

And for you info materials DO NOT always go up. New technologoes are sometimes less expessive.

Technologies and materials are two different things. Concrete, steel, etc. Those are materials. They only go up. Technologies, such as the trains and the electronics, those may go down, but they are a very small percentage of any monorail expansion project.

 

[jsfra209]

I love discussions like these .. Everyone gets all worked up! :lol:

 

[Sherm00]

ok I haven't read all the posts, however, I think it may be in there next intrest. if you look at what Iger and them said about expanding the current parks NOT building a new park and trying to increase there timeshare options, expanding the monorail would seem a good value. The money they would have put into another park could go toward the monorail that would go to other resorts as well as the other parks. This would instantly make there timeshare and on property hotels a better value as well as increase capacity on property. although I have my doubts I am seeing more and more they want to fix there mistakes. so I take it with a grain of salt and cross my fingers and wish upon a star.

 

[Invero]

Anyone who has to ride a train to work knows that this is a fact of life on the rails and can be dealt with. Heck, I rode an hour in the front car of a train in Philly with 3 cars worth of people because the last car was on fire. The brake lines locked up and the wheels caught fire.

It happens and people deal with it and get over it. If the train breaks down they can hire taxis and busses to transport people for a few hours or allow free parking. I guess what I am getting at is a broken train usually only takes a little while to clear (I am sure it is the same with a monorail) and there are always ways around it.<O></O>

See, here's the difference. Public transit, things like this are expected, and happen. When it happens, we groan, but move on with life.

At Disney, things are COMPLETELY different. Look at how guests get upset when a bus takes longer than 15 minutes to arrive. Even if it does arrive in 15 minutes or less, there's always the guest that percieves it to be longer. Guests are spending a pretty penny to spend thier vacation here, and if things don't go right, they get very upset. It is a big deal, and they don't get over it.

If a train breaks down, it can cause a sizeable backup, and depending on the size and complexity of both the system, and the problem at hand, it can cause a huge delay, and thousands of angry guests. You can't just hire out taxis, or get charter buses at the drop of a hat, those things can take hours to set up. With the size of our current fleet, we do have the ability to run buses as backup when the monorail goes down, and we can usually get them running within 15 minutes of being alerted (total time from start of problem to buses running is usually 30 minutes) 30 minutes is quick, but it's still an ETERNITY to those guests on vacation.

My point is that any fixed guideway system at WDW would need to have some sort of contigency plan for when problems occur.

 

[tk421-sw]

still, wow.

 

[marni1971]

We could always go back to busses with colour coded flags - imagine the mess with the size of todays resort compared to the 70`s. It was confusing enough then! :lol:

 

[socalkdg]

The easy expansion would be adding the DMGM to the Epcot Loop, putting it between the park and the Dolphin/Swan. Thus all the Epcot resorts now have easy access to it(currently you have to walk through Epcot to get to the Epcot staion). With the Dolphin/Swan being very close to this station, a room rate hike would be feasable. While they aren't owned by Disney, I'm sure an agreement could take place. Thus a $50 room per night increase might see Disney taking $25 of that. This nets them 20 million(based off of 2267 rooms) per year. Lets just say the monorail is extended to AK & Lodge(putting access near Lodge) from the TTC. Bumping the room rate by $100(the other monorail resorts easily go for this) nets Disney another 47 million per year, putting total income to 67 million per year. By setting it up this way we are only talking about 1 transfer(at TTC) per trip from AKL or the Epcot area.

It was mentioned that costs would run between 50 & 100 million per mile, so I'll use 75 million for estimates.. So to add DMGM/Dolphin/Swann to the loop is approx. 3 miles of track or $250,000 million. For AK we are looking at approx. 10 miles, or 750,000 million. So we have an investment of a billion dollars. There would be a gain of 67 million per year, but that’s not a great return. They could subsidize this by adding a DVC at AKL, which could pull in $300-$400 million, of which costs to build might run $100-150 million. There is also the savings for bus maintanance/gas, but then again you have to build a couple more monorails. Then you have to decide what value WDW puts on having monorail access to all parks and additional hotels.

If I were Disney, and could get a bump in income from the Swan/Dolphin, I’d first continue the Epcot monorail to DMGM and then reevaluate a few years after this expansion. You greatly reduce your cost, you add another park to the monorail line, you increase the popularity of the Epcot resorts, plus you gain info for any future monorail expansion without breaking the bank at the beginning.[font=&quot][/font][font=&quot] [/font]

 

[ONUpolarbears]

...with foundations layed in Futureworld during its construction for east and west spurs.

Really!? There's foundations in future world? I don't think I've ever seen them. Anyone have a picture by chance?

 

[fiftiesdean]

I've spoken to 3 CMs (two of them Monorail drivers) and they all told me that the footers for a Monorail extension to AK and MGM were put in when the parks were made. Can anyone confirm this? It would make sense for them to do that while everything was being dug up. I'm not saying I believe them, but just wondering.

 

[Lynx04]

Anyone who has to ride a train to work knows that this is a fact of life on the rails and can be dealt with. Heck, I rode an hour in the front car of a train in Philly with 3 cars worth of people because the last car was on fire. The brake lines locked up and the wheels caught fire.

It happens and people deal with it and get over it. If the train breaks down they can hire taxis and busses to transport people for a few hours or allow free parking. I guess what I am getting at is a broken train usually only takes a little while to clear (I am sure it is the same with a monorail) and there are always ways around it.<O></O>

Their is one fundamental difference between the train breaking down in your city as apposed to the monorail breaking down at Disney. Disney has to keep their guests happy, cities don't really have to worry about that. Guests will demand discounts, or even trips refunded if they have to spend an hour on a monorail waiting to get to the parks. We all know how people react when they are incovenenced even the slightest. Also, Disney's number one priority is to get guests in the parks and keep them there as long as possible so they spend as much money as they can. Not much to buy when your sitting on a monorail waiting to be pushed to the neariest station, nor all the people waiting at the station for the monorail to arrive.

 

[ONUpolarbears]

I've spoken to 3 CMs (two of them Monorail drivers) and they all told me that the footers for a Monorail extension to AK and MGM were put in when the parks were made. Can anyone confirm this? It would make sense for them to do that while everything was being dug up. I'm not saying I believe them, but just wondering.

If that's true, I'd guess that'd bring down the price to build the extensions a bit if they're already there. Then again, When they say the footers are there, it could be like 15 of them or just the ones that are right by the park. I guess we'll know if disney will never build another monorail when the footers show up on ebay EVERYONE BUY A FOOTER! Makes a great paper weight or really tall coffee table! :lol: Orrrrr drop it on your mother-in-law j/p

 

[Thrawn]

I've spoken to 3 CMs (two of them Monorail drivers) and they all told me that the footers for a Monorail extension to AK and MGM were put in when the parks were made. Can anyone confirm this? It would make sense for them to do that while everything was being dug up. I'm not saying I believe them, but just wondering.

Maybe right outside the parks, but definetly not all the way from TTC to the parks.

 

[Master Yoda]

And for you info materials DO NOT always go up. New technologoes are sometimes less expessive.

That is true…from a certain point of view. In the short term the prices of building materials can go up or down. However if you look and average per year prices on commodities such as lumber, concrete and steel you will see a steady increase. Once consumers get accustomed to paying an inflated price it becomes the norm and the suppliers don’t reduce there prices back down to the level they were prior to the price increase. The only time you have a drastic price reduction is when there is a huge supply surplus which almost never happens because the suppliers won’t let it. I read a few years ago that if every diamond supplier released every diamond in their possession diamonds would become worthless. Just like the diamond suppliers control the amount of product available to keep their prices were they are or on an increase so do the steel, lumber and concrete suppliers.

 

[marni1971]

I've spoken to 3 CMs (two of them Monorail drivers) and they all told me that the footers for a Monorail extension to AK and MGM were put in when the parks were made. Can anyone confirm this? It would make sense for them to do that while everything was being dug up. I'm not saying I believe them, but just wondering.

Foundations were layed between Imagination and the Land for a line to the planned Industrial Complex (which became the Swan and Dolphin once Eisner arrived, and no - the line wouldn`t run through the hotels!) This part of EPCOT Center was to host the Movie pavilion, so I would venture the route would have been close to one of the pavilions as opposed to centrally between them. Of course, Soarin` is here now.

One of the 1979 massing models shows a Y-Junction outside of where WoL was built, with a line running East between Energy and Horizons - it would have made sense to put the foundations in during construction.

Bear in mind these lines were planned before Disney-MGM was Imagineered, and well before DAK, so the westerly line would have gone to the aforementioned industrial complex, and the easterly probably to the Village of Lake Buena Vista (Downtown Disney and Hotel Plaza Blvd.) since this was originally to be linked by monorail and WEDWay to the rest of WDW.

Based on this, it appears any phase 3 expansion was planned to run via the existing EPCOT station and the T&TC stations. There is no mention of new lines running direct from the T&TC to other parks, or plans to suggest this.

 

[gsimpson]

Always a lively topic....

For those of you actually interested in the cost of a monorail system you can look at the financials from Las Vegas, Seatle, Jacksonville, and many others which for the most part have been professionally auditied so I would expect to be accurate. The total cost of roll out in Las Vegas included several costs that WDW would not have to deal with. I don't think they would need to purchase easements from themselves, they already have a maintenance facility (would need exansion I expect), and the biggest in the case of Las Vegas-- over 1/3 of the total cost of the project was money they had to put into escrow so that in the event the system proved undesirable/unprofitable so that it would be completely removed. If you remove those costs you find the per mile to be under 50M. I am pro monorail but do have to agree with the people that believe trying to connect everything would be unfeasable to the point of being silly. I have to believe that when they built Epcot and decided to use the Monorail they had some reason to believe it better than a pure bus solution. For those amongst you that wish to reply with "that was too long ago to count" sorts or arguments what about Tokyo Disney Resort (cooperative between Disney and one of Japan's rail companies), Disney's California Adventure, Downtown Disney Anaheim, exapansion, and there is now some talk about adding Monorail to Hong Kong Disney (which conveniently would connect to the city's other Monorail lines). The discussion of light rail needs to include a discussion of safety, in the US last year there were 40,000 inuries on light rail that required a trip to the hospital or funeral home (this from Houston's news paper), Monorial meanwhile has had no fatalities and almost no injuries. The whole not being at grade and having to compete with street traffic, traffic lights, pedestrians, and the assortment of idiots and in worse scenarios drunks on the road has its benefits. The busses are very efficient feeders to the monorail, sounds like a good plan to me. In my 150+ trips to WDW I have been stuck on malfunctioning busses a dozen or so times (not including the times I wait for another buss because the wheel chair lift of kneeling mechanism decides to play up), I guess I have just been very lucky because I have never been stuck on the monorail. To the original poster I can only say post all you want, it is not too difficult for me to bypass your post should I not be interested. If you really want to start a riot start creating posts about such 3rd rail topics as COP or Horizons.