News Mickey’s Copyright Adventure: Early Disney Creation Will Soon Be Public Property

Brad Bishop

Well-Known Member
The real question is why should a company like Disney have the right to preclude others from reimaginning IP created nearly a century ago? You have to look as who is doing the forcing and whether they should be allowed to exert that force. The laws are preventing other creatives from being able to see what they could do with the IP. Why is Disney entitled this monopoly is the question?

My opinion on this has changed, as 10 years ago I would have been horrified by the idea of any company but Disney to be trusted with this iconic material. But seeing as Disney now puts Goofy in the Simpsons and Mickey animation is on par with Ren and Stimpy, I don’t see why Comcast and others shouldn’t also be allowed to provide us with their spin on what Mickey could be. Who/What is “The Walt Disney Company” anyway relative to the man who created the copyrighted material nearly 100 years ago? If The Walt Disney Company is nothing more than a collection of IP to market and sell, as current management treats it, then I suppose I support more reasonable limits of the length of the copyright.
I hadn't realized that Goofy was in the Simpsons but here it is:



It's an excellent example. Imagine the Simpsons not being owned by Disney. Why shouldn't there be a bit where Homer is having a conversation with Goofy in a bar (or Peter from Family Guy).. These are the types of things that the public domain allows. The art has run its course providing the originator their share of profits and now some others can have some fun with it.

Had this bit been done in the Simpsons without Disney owning them (Simpsons) they would have been sued and, ultimately, because of that, this bit would have never existed.

I think part of the problem with people wrapping their heads around this is because, for all of our lifetimes, this is how it's always been (Disney owns Mickey). We forget that every 20 years Disney pays lobbyists to forego the laws already in place to simply further their ownership of the mouse for profit. This stagnates the rest of the creative realm.

To be clear: Copy protection exists. You get to make your money off your work. That's not what this is about. There is the long-tradition of things entering public domain after a certain period of time (I believe it's something like 20 years after the death of the originator (to allow the children to profit) but that's just from memory and I didn't look it up). Disney foregos that because they have the deep pockets to pay off our representatives. They do it every ≈25 years. If Disney didn't exist, your work would enter the public domain after a period of time AND it's very unlikely you'd be able to perpetuate that indefinitely because you had deep pockets to pay off people in Washington.

What Disney does with this is wrong. Our "representatives" are wrong (corrupt) in taking the money and kicking it down the road each time. These laws are already in place and have been for centuries (it goes way back to English Law if not before that - I'm not a scholar on this).
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
So here is my fear, if its in the public domain then can anyone use Mickey for what they want? Look at the winnie the pooh horror movie thats coming out,
Look at what Jim Hensons own son did with Hensonish puppets in the Happytime Murders (with the henson name all over it).

Do we really need mickey out there to be made into any kind of movie?

Just a thought.

No, they can't - at least not in the sense that you're worried about anymore than they already could under the protections carved out in copyright law for parody and non-commercial art, already.

There are a handful of animated shorts, most of which most people alive today have never seen unless they sought them out, featuring an old version of Mickey that will likely enjoy trademark protection until the sun burns out which will prevent him from being used in most major ways that he couldn't already be used.

As far as the Jim Henson example, that's an entirely different, totally unrelated story because a last name is a last name and we all share one... and while the Muppets® were unique to the Jim Henson Company and now are unique to The Muppets Studio, LLC, puppets - even silly elaborate ones - are not and never were.

As for Winnie the Pooh, you realize that with a few very small changes, that still could have likely come out, right?

I mean, the copyright on the Grinch that Stole Christmas isn't due to expire anytime soon and this movie which I'm pretty sure the estate of Theodor Seuss Geisel did not approve, came out this year.
 
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Brad Bishop

Well-Known Member
So here is my fear, if its in the public domain then can anyone use Mickey for what they want? Look at the winnie the pooh horror movie thats coming out,
Look at what Jim Hensons own son did with Hensonish puppets in the Happytime Murders (with the henson name all over it).

Do we really need mickey out there to be made into any kind of movie?

Just a thought.
Yes, you do - just to set things back to normal.

People can make a Winnie the Pooh horror story - so what? Who's REALLY interested in this (I didn't hear that it was a huge block buster). At best it becomes a campy B-movie people watch and make fun of.

The same thing happened with the Muppets and the Happytime Murders. It flopped.

If you're going to do something with a character or story, you have to make it better and more interesting for it to be successful. It's why Disney's classic animated movies are so beloved even though they deviated from the original content. They brought the stories to life through animation and they've done quite well with their ROI... and that's great. They took a public domain story and made it better.

Had they taken Cinderella and made her a murderer, well, it probably wouldn't have sold as well. It doesn't mean that the couldn't have done that and that someone, today, could do it, but who is that playing to?
 

Robbiem

Well-Known Member
Copyright and IP law is very complicated and confusing. I’m not an expert on US copyright but I do have a law degree in UK IP law

Basically there are two types of IP rights. Copyright is an automatic right and gives the creator a monopoly licence to reproduce their work for a period of time which varies by the medium. For some things it is when a work enters public domain for others it is from the death of the creator but the basic premise is to give rights to the creator plus two generations. Different people can hold different copyrights for the same work as writer, artist, musical arranger etc. so for example for a record Cole Porter may own the writing rights, nelson riddle the arrangement and Frank Sinatra the performance rights. People can own and sell these rights individuall. This is why Michael Jackson could licence the Lennon and McCartney songs he owned the copyright to for adverts etc but not the Beatles performance as they retained their rights to this.

Being automatic, copyright, in the UK at least, applies without any need to register

When copyright expires others are free to make their own version of something but they have to put the work in to create it themselves- so for example you can print your own version of Hamlet but you have to put effort into making it, you can’t just sell the penguin classic version in your name, you have to lay out the pages and design from new (this is why some books have deliberate mistakes to see if a copy is a copy).

Alongside copyright there are other IP rights the most applicable being trademarks. These are an applied right giving protection to a mark indicating a company or products origin. Most importantly trademarks are applied for and do not expire so long as renewal fees are paid (the worlds first trademark, the bass beer red triangle is still in force). Trademarks can be revoked on the rare case the term is generic (For example sellotape or hoover) but this is very unusual.

Outside of IP rights there are also a whole set of laws designed to prevent people using the goodwill of others in their works. An example of this is the torte of ‘passing off’ where if a product is too similar to an existing one it can be found to be trading on the good will of the original and is illega. For example if I made characters called Dickey Mouse, Ronald Duck, Hello catey or Barry Potter you could srgue I was trading off others work.

All this means that its going to be really complicated knowing exactly what is public domain. Steamboat Willie may be copyright expired soon but if you reproduce Mickey looking as Mickey you violate trademarks and could be passing off as Disney so breaking other laws.
it willbe an interesting few years ahead
 

Obobru

Well-Known Member
I wonder if we will see people randomly dressing up as Mickey in places like Time Square hassling people to take photos for $10 once anyone can use the IP because it's definitely never happened before.
 

Coaster Lover

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Seen the South Park Pandemic special? A certain company mascot is heavily parodied in that one and Disney does not own that cartoon show.

I am no expert on copywrite law, but I do believe content such as what South Park creates falls under the classification of parody which is a protected "fair use" form of speech protected under first ammendment (regardless of if the parodied work still falls under copywrite protection or not).
 

Fido Chuckwagon

Well-Known Member
Had this bit been done in the Simpsons without Disney owning them (Simpsons) they would have been sued and, ultimately, because of that, this bit would have never existed.
I agree with your overall point, but this is almost certainly fair use/satire. It’s not a derivative work it’s making fun of the work.
 

Touchdown

Well-Known Member
I am no expert on copywrite law, but I do believe content such as what South Park creates falls under the classification of parody which is a protected "fair use" form of speech protected under first ammendment (regardless of if the parodied work still falls under copywrite protection or not).
(That was my point, parody is always allowed provided it is obvious it is a parody)
 

wtyy21

Well-Known Member
I hadn't realized that Goofy was in the Simpsons but here it is:



It's an excellent example. Imagine the Simpsons not being owned by Disney. Why shouldn't there be a bit where Homer is having a conversation with Goofy in a bar (or Peter from Family Guy).. These are the types of things that the public domain allows. The art has run its course providing the originator their share of profits and now some others can have some fun with it.

Had this bit been done in the Simpsons without Disney owning them (Simpsons) they would have been sued and, ultimately, because of that, this bit would have never existed.

I think part of the problem with people wrapping their heads around this is because, for all of our lifetimes, this is how it's always been (Disney owns Mickey). We forget that every 20 years Disney pays lobbyists to forego the laws already in place to simply further their ownership of the mouse for profit. This stagnates the rest of the creative realm.

To be clear: Copy protection exists. You get to make your money off your work. That's not what this is about. There is the long-tradition of things entering public domain after a certain period of time (I believe it's something like 20 years after the death of the originator (to allow the children to profit) but that's just from memory and I didn't look it up). Disney foregos that because they have the deep pockets to pay off our representatives. They do it every ≈25 years. If Disney didn't exist, your work would enter the public domain after a period of time AND it's very unlikely you'd be able to perpetuate that indefinitely because you had deep pockets to pay off people in Washington.

What Disney does with this is wrong. Our "representatives" are wrong (corrupt) in taking the money and kicking it down the road each time. These laws are already in place and have been for centuries (it goes way back to English Law if not before that - I'm not a scholar on this).

Donald Duck also there in The Simpsons.
 

Robbiem

Well-Known Member
I am no expert on copywrite law, but I do believe content such as what South Park creates falls under the classification of parody which is a protected "fair use" form of speech protected under first ammendment (regardless of if the parodied work still falls under copywrite protection or not).

Copyright allows for works to be reproduced for things like parody, journalism or research as it isn’t trying to profit directly from the work but is used in the creation of something new. Other laws apply to protect the people being represented like slander and libel if things go too far
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
(That was my point, parody is always allowed provided it is obvious it is a parody)

But this is where things get tricky in our country today because a company like Disney can still try to sue over it even if they know that legally, they're not in the right.

The whole point of the process is intended to determine fairly and justly who is right and who is wrong and make sure that the wronged parties are in some way compensated and/or satiated but but the details are often complicated and it can become a long and drawn out process.

Large companies with legal on retainer have learned they can weaponize this process.

The result is, if they determine that the potential defendant isn't big enough to fund their own defense through a protracted legal dispute, they can simply use litigation to get them to comply or run them into bankruptcy if the other party decides to fight - either way, getting what they want and still being in a situation where they would likely be found in the wrong if the legal proceedings were able to take their full natural course.

In the case of a show like the Simpsons (prior to Disney owning them) or South Park, they are backed by entertainment empires with their own legal staff to deal with this kind of stuff which is why they're able to make these "bold" choices.

Try doing that as an individual or a small business and see what happens, should the eye of Sauron gaze your way and decide it doesn't like what it sees.
 
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Robbiem

Well-Known Member
But this is where things get tricky in our country today because a company like Disney can still try to sue over it even if they know that legally, they're not in the right.

The whole point of the process is intended to determine fairly and justly who is right and who is wrong and make sure that the wronged parties are in some way compensated and/or satiated but large companies with legal on retainer have learned they can weaponize the process.

The result is, if they determine that the potential defendant isn't big enough to fund their own defense through a protracted legal dispute, they can simply use litigation to get them to comply or run them into bankruptcy if the other party decides to fight - either way, getting what they want.

In the case of a show like the Simpsons (prior to Disney owning them) or South Park, they are backed by entertainment empires with their own legal staff to deal with this kind of stuff.

Try doing that as an individual or a small business and see what happens, should the eye of sauron gaze your way and decide it doesn't like what it sees.

Unfortunately this happens all the time. IP rights aren’t worth jack for the little guys. When I worked as an IP lawyer you saw it all the time. If the little guy didn’t sell to the big player he was shunned until his rights lapsed or he couldn’t afford the renewal fees then the big guys took his rights when they became public. The best someone with a good invention could hope for is a payout from someone buying their start up, very few ever make it big anymore
 

Kingoglow

Well-Known Member
Every high school in the world should be paying royalties to SOMEONE when they do a production of Romeo and Juliette, right?

Yes, the school's theater department pays for the usage when they purchase the scripts to share out to the actors. That is how it works at that level. Those plays are part of a common pool, and the person that owns the rights to a play gets paid out all the time.


As far as the copyright issue, I don't care too much. I would hate for kids to see negative images of their favorite animated characters though.... And I cannot imagine someone calling themselves creative or working in a 'creative' field while riffing on someone else's content. It is derivative and lazy and should not be rewarded.
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
As far as the copyright issue, I don't care too much. I would hate for kids to see negative images of their favorite animated characters though.... And I cannot imagine someone calling themselves creative or working in a 'creative' field while riffing on someone else's content. It is derivative and lazy and should not be rewarded.

Have you ever heard the expression "There is nothing new under the sun."?

It's something heard every once in a while in creative circles and is based on the well established idea that there is nothing that is truly novel in existence. It's the concept that every new idea has some sort of reference point - something it's based on. That all "new" stuff, to put it more bluntly, is a remix of old stuff, life experiences (also old stuff), and some misfiring synaptics, all mashed together.

Nobody births something truly original from nothing like the story of the Virgin Mary.

Speaking of which, the original statement that this proverb comes from is:

"and there is no new thing under the sun."

... which has been kicking around a while.

It comes from the book of Ecclesiastes.

In case you're not familiar, that's the bible - old testament.

The whole line is "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."

Point is, this idea that new things come from old things has been pretty widely accepted for most of human history, even if you don't agree with it, personally.

This may be a shocking revelation but the whole reason there are art movements - Renaissance, Baroque, Neoclassicism, Romanticisim, Art Nouveau, Impressionism, Surrealism, etc. is because artists quite famously copy from each other in one way or another.

I have to laugh when I imagine you shouting down Michelangelo, Wolfgang Motzart, Dali... and apparently Walt Disney as all being "derivative and lazy".

BTW, Here's a cute little book that breaks it down for beginners who want to get in on our racket since this is easially the creative world's worst kept secret.

This may all shatter the romantic view many people who don't work in "creative" fields have of the process but such is life.

🤷‍♂️


Yes, the school's theater department pays for the usage when they purchase the scripts to share out to the actors. That is how it works at that level. Those plays are part of a common pool, and the person that owns the rights to a play gets paid out all the time.

Would you happen to know who currently holds the rights to works by Shakespeare - specifically Romeo and Juliette as I mentioned?

Just curious since they weren't even protected within his own lifetime due to the legal concept of such a thing not existing until centuries after the man's death.

Paying to buy a copy of a script is not at all the same thing as paying for a licenses to perform something, much in the same way that buying a Taylor Swift CD does not entitle the owner to play it in their restaurant for patrons.

If you wanted to preform anything by say, Andrew Lloyd Webber, for instance, (someone who's work is protected by modern copyright) there is specific licensing required to do that:


Simply buying a script or a song book (or checking one out for free from a local library) to read certainty doesn't grant anyone the legal right to publicly preform it. In fact, the license to preform the Young Actor's Edition of Cats - the one specifically for high schools - does not include any copies of the script or rental materials.

That's all extra.

... I would hate for kids to see negative images of their favorite animated characters though.... [

As for this concern, people have been able to do this all along thanks to fair use provisions in US copyright law that allow for parody and non-commercial art so that rat is long out of the bag with your favorite mouse.

That example is from the 1970's - probably older than most of the people on these boards. Disney tried unsuccessfully to sue back then (because they didn't like it but, well, believe it or not, it was actually legal) still, there are plenty of modern examples, none of which appear to depict the version of Mickey that is about to fall out of copyright yet still will be protected strongly by trademark.
 
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Fido Chuckwagon

Well-Known Member
Yes, the school's theater department pays for the usage when they purchase the scripts to share out to the actors. That is how it works at that level. Those plays are part of a common pool, and the person that owns the rights to a play gets paid out all the time.
Lol, no, Shakespeare's estate is not getting royalties every time somebody performs Romeo & Juliet.
 

BuddyThomas

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Winnie the Pooh is now in the Public Domain, and look what has happened:


From the article:

"No, Disney has not lost the plot. What the company has lost, though, are the exclusive rights to some of its most beloved characters. On Jan. 1, 2022, the copyright to A.A. Milne’s 1926 book, “Winnie-the-Pooh,” expired, entering the public domain, and leaving Pooh and friends essentially up for grabs."

"Actually, there is one caveat, because Disney still owns the trademark for the characters: Any new non-Disney usage of Pooh and the rest should not be easily mistaken as coming from Disney."

“Copyright is principally concerned with works of creative expression, while trademarks are used to identify goods or services as coming from a particular source,” said Aaron J. Moss, a lawyer specializing in copyright and trademark law. “So long as the new film uses only material that’s in the public domain, Disney wouldn’t have a copyright claim. But Disney could have a trademark claim if the film were marketed in a way that makes it look like the film was somehow associated with or approved by Disney.”
 

MagicHappens1971

Well-Known Member
It’s time, Mickey, Superman, Bugs etc have become symbols of America and should be able to be used by all Americans.
I don't agree, but that's just my opinion. Mickey is the icon of the TWDC. It would be like Apple giving up the Apple logo. It's really irrelevant though as the trademark protections basically cover most of what Disney would be concerned about once the copyright expires.
 

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