Main Street U.S.A. hub redevelopment at the Magic Kingdom

Goofyernmost

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
JoeCamel said:
OK, I have to comment. The new view is a direct view of the castle down main street, the original had some mystery with the castle spires rising above a grove of trees at the end of Main Street. It inspires fantasy as if you were on a small town main street looking down and imagining if maybe a castle was there visible through the trees. That view is gone never to return. (have to add I think this was the view Walt thought of).

I get why, they want to do the castle projections and have more viewing area but the whole magic of venturing down an American Main Street into the realm of fantasy is lost. Going through the castle and entering the land of Peter Pan, Snow White and Mr. Toad is lost forever in favor of the digital age.

OK, the castle is a big screen what will come next is up to the planners. What was is lost is lost for all time.
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No, that is what you would like to see and how you wish it were. However, in the film/entertainment business the Castle is what is known as a weenie. That is something put there to draw people into an area. Hiding it would be totally against the concept. It is a good image that you have, but, that wasn't, in my opinion, the reason for it's existence.

I do have to agree with a PP that you certainly have a flare for the dramatic. Nothing in Walt's parks were supposed to be stagnant. It is something that changes constantly. (in his own words) This is what we have now, nothing is forever. They spent a lot of cash to make that area an extremely pleasant thing to see. It is reminiscent of many European palaces with ample gardens in the front of it.
2524820749_b1c18faecc_z-540x361.jpg
 
lazyboy97o

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Goofyernmost said:
No, that is what you would like to see and how you wish it were. However, in the film/entertainment business the Castle is what is known as a weenie. That is something put there to draw people into an area. Hiding it would be totally against the concept. It is a good image that you have, but, that wasn't, in my opinion, the reason for it's existence.

I do have to agree with a PP that you certainly have a flare for the dramatic. Nothing in Walt's parks were supposed to be stagnant. It is something that changes constantly. (in his own words) This is what we have now, nothing is forever. They spent a lot of cash to make that area an extremely pleasant thing to see. It is reminiscent of many European palaces with ample gardens in the front of it.
2524820749_b1c18faecc_z-540x361.jpg
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A weenie is something that entices. Nothing about a slow reveal is in opposition to the concept and many would argue that the slow reveal is the better design, as it better entices. Why should anyone really bother to get up close to Cinderella Castle? The whole thing can already be seen down the street. And those same shows that necessitate the tree removal also keep it locked up for most of the day, so that long established reveal that is only being more and more emphasized (in the park and out) has absolutely no payoff. It's a weenie in a bait and switch.
 
DisneyOutsider

DisneyOutsider

Well-Known Member
JoeCamel said:
(have to add I think this was the view Walt thought of).
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This opinion doesn't bother me when presented as you did, however I've never been successful in finding any actual evidence of this, despite how popular that sentiment seems to be around here.

All I've ever found on the subject was an excerpt from imagineer John Hench which seems to suggest the opposite (you can read my thoughts here: http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/a-spirited-perfect-ten.894588/page-419#post-6625240 )

I know that it's easy for posts to get lost in that thread, but I never received any sort of reply.
 
lazyboy97o

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
DisneyOutsider said:
This opinion doesn't bother me when presented as you did, however I've never been successful in finding any actual evidence of this, despite how popular that sentiment seems to be around here.

All I've ever found on the subject was an excerpt from imagineer John Hench which seems to suggest the opposite (you can read my thoughts here: http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/a-spirited-perfect-ten.894588/page-419#post-6625240 )

I know that it's easy for posts to get lost in that thread, but I never received any sort of reply.
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Orientation and a slow reveal are not opposing strategies. Just the added distance and bridges in the Magic Kingdom's Central Plaza compared to Disneyland's illustrates how there can be a grander gesture in the concept.

One of Walt's own quotes about how Disneyland will always change specifically noted that at the minimum the trees will grow and the park will therefore become more beautiful with each year.
 
DisneyOutsider

DisneyOutsider

Well-Known Member
lazyboy97o said:
Orientation and a slow reveal are not opposing strategies. Just the added distance and bridges in the Magic Kingdom's Central Plaza compared to Disneyland's illustrates how there can be a grander gesture in the concept.

One of Walt's own quotes about how Disneyland will always change specifically noted that at the minimum the trees will grow and the park will therefore become more beautiful with each year.
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Unless I'm mistaken, one of the gripes about a hub without big trees was that you can clearly see tomorrowland from the hub. Not only do I think it's beneficial to be able to see the entrance to these lands from the hub, I think you're supposed to be able to see them.

Also, when taken in full context, it's quite a leap to attribute Walt's quote about trees growing to anything meaningful in terms of the hub. I'm not anti-tree at all. If I called the shots, I would definitely use more trees to fill out the space there currently. I just take issue with folks who are adamant that the hub was designed to be lush with large trees like a mini-forest and that anything less causes Walt to roll over in his grave. That theory just simply is NOT supported based on what I know.
 
lazyboy97o

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
DisneyOutsider said:
Unless I'm mistaken, one of the gripes about a hub without big trees was that you can clearly see tomorrowland from the hub. Not only do I think it's beneficial to be able to see the entrance to these lands from the hub, I think you're supposed to be able to see them.
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The complaint is with being able to see the [admittedly larger] Contemporary Resort from Liberty Square. That is still not in opposition to orientation. It's that same notion of a slow reveal. The Central Plaza is a plaza, not a highway interchange. In prior years land entrances were obscured from a distance by not only large trees, but also bridges that rose up rather high above the Central Plaza's elevation. It was all a series of slow reveals that encouraged exploration and rewarded with entry to the land.

Now everything is given more immediately seen, and in the case of Cinderella Castle the view is not only given away but after the domination of the view down Main Street, USA there is no payoff because one is not allowed to actually get close to Cinderella Castle and enter Fantasyland. The disappearance of the trees is intrinsically linked to access to Fantasyland being physically and forcefully blocked. What's the point in making it easier for people to see lands when the first one seen, the primary view, is blocked?
 
DisneyOutsider

DisneyOutsider

Well-Known Member
lazyboy97o said:
The complaint is with being able to see the [admittedly larger] Contemporary Resort from Liberty Square. That is still not in opposition to orientation. It's that same notion of a slow reveal. The Central Plaza is a plaza, not a highway interchange. In prior years land entrances were obscured from a distance by not only large trees, but also bridges that rose up rather high above the Central Plaza's elevation. It was all a series of slow reveals that encouraged exploration and rewarded with entry to the land.

Now everything is given more immediately seen, and in the case of Cinderella Castle the view is not only given away but after the domination of the view down Main Street, USA there is no payoff because one is not allowed to actually get close to Cinderella Castle and enter Fantasyland. The disappearance of the trees is intrinsically linked to access to Fantasyland being physically and forcefully blocked. What's the point in making it easier for people to see lands when the first one seen, the primary view, is blocked?
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That's a good argument, but I think your recollection is a little romanticized as far as everything having a "slow reveal". What you describe sounds wonderful, but in my opinion that's not necessarily how the hub was designed to work. Not saying that you're making things up, just that I'll have to agree to disagree.

In response to your question at the end, the entry to the lands is all that needs to be seen, which I think we can agree that the castle is the primary "gate" into fantasyland.
 
180º

180º

Well-Known Member
@lazyboy97o and @DisneyOutsider, I'd like to compliment you on an interesting, respectful discussion with good points on both sides.
DisneyOutsider said:
That's a good argument, but I think your recollection is a little romanticized as far as everything having a "slow reveal". What you describe sounds wonderful, but in my opinion that's not necessarily how the hub was designed to work. Not saying that you're making things up, just that I'll have to agree to disagree.
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Just as a response to this, I'll drop off this classic, which has a different argument on how the Hub is designed to work.
http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-awkward-transitions-of-disneyland.html?m=1

I'm honestly interested to hear your critiques. This counts as on-topic, right?
 
Otamin

Otamin

Well-Known Member
DisneyOutsider said:
Unless I'm mistaken, one of the gripes about a hub without big trees was that you can clearly see tomorrowland from the hub. Not only do I think it's beneficial to be able to see the entrance to these lands from the hub, I think you're supposed to be able to see them.

Also, when taken in full context, it's quite a leap to attribute Walt's quote about trees growing to anything meaningful in terms of the hub. I'm not anti-tree at all. If I called the shots, I would definitely use more trees to fill out the space there currently. I just take issue with folks who are adamant that the hub was designed to be lush with large trees like a mini-forest and that anything less causes Walt to roll over in his grave. That theory just simply is NOT supported based on what I know.
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It was designed to have trees in the central hub section, otherwise they wouldn't of been there in 1971:

disney-world-opening-day-parade.jpg


Now I can understand having smaller trees nowadays due to the projection systems now used, but why can't they go for something similar to the above? The trees at that early stage are roughly the same size as those currently at Disneyland (which also has projection based shows), so what gives?

I'd much rather have a hub that had elements of the original design intentions, whilst also going forward with what's needed (such as the hub project in general).
 
fngoofy

fngoofy

Well-Known Member
Otamin said:
It was designed to have trees in the central hub section, otherwise they wouldn't of been there in 1971:

disney-world-opening-day-parade.jpg


Now I can understand having smaller trees nowadays due to the projection systems now used, but why can't they go for something similar to the above? The trees at that early stage are roughly the same size as those currently at Disneyland (which also has projection based shows), so what gives?

I'd much rather have a hub that had elements of the original design intentions, whilst also going forward with what's needed (such as the hub project in general).
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I hear you, and agree.
I think the other factors of:
1) The stage and its daily and special shows
2) Accommodating a lot more people for parades and fireworks
3) General crowd control
Are all against having trees there.
 
lazyboy97o

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
dstrawn9889 said:
amen,

Let it go, let it go!
the trees had to go,
let it go, let it go!
went clean out the door.

pro-ject-ions
are the new show...
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The trees were removed years before the projection shows.

fngoofy said:
I hear you, and agree.
I think the other factors of:
1) The stage and its daily and special shows
2) Accommodating a lot more people for parades and fireworks
3) General crowd control
Are all against having trees there.
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Only the first reasons applies and is the biggest factor in the initial decision. The new outer ring handles general crowd control and the removal of trees is not an automatic gain in hardscape.
 

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