Magic Kingdom Monorails at Reduced Capacity Due to Beam Damage

Rasvar

Well-Known Member
I still think they should retrofit those splice plates that vegas put in. Those are nifty, and again, very easy to install later.

I'm not sure an in place retrofit is possible. 40 year old cement is certainly not as strong as it was when it was first laid down. You probably risk significant structural damage if you have a mishap in the refit that could lead to a serious problem of having to replace the beam. That would probably take months if a retrofit goes wrong. There is not even a place to test a retrofit procedure or outcome. You don't want to do it on regular beam and risk losing it for months. You can't even do it on a spur beam. It would be a very risky business decision. I can't see new expansion joints without complete beam replacements.
 

Tom

Beta Return
I'm not sure an in place retrofit is possible. 40 year old cement is certainly not as strong as it was when it was first laid down. You probably risk significant structural damage if you have a mishap in the refit that could lead to a serious problem of having to replace the beam. That would probably take months if a retrofit goes wrong. There is not even a place to test a retrofit procedure or outcome. You don't want to do it on regular beam and risk losing it for months. You can't even do it on a spur beam. It would be a very risky business decision. I can't see new expansion joints without complete beam replacements.

If you look closely at the LV photo, you'll see that the joint was actually installed after the fact. Granted, the concrete was new, but it was sawcut and then attached. The edge of the concrete on top, where it meets the plate, is cleanly cut. It wasn't formed that way.

They just built a maintenance spur, and could test a joint at the end of that beam. Or, at the end of a beam in the garage (I presume...I've never seen them in person) since that concrete is the same age. There's plenty of places to do a little R&D.

The fix then is quite simple. There is no rebar up in the top of the beam where this plate would be inserted. It's only about 3" deep, and is probably just a cap anyway, and isn't a full 3" thick. You score off the concrete, drill in some Hilti expansion anchors and use 2-part epoxy to adhere them. Then you bolt down the plate, and voila, it's literally done. The work could be done and the epoxy cure before they send out trains the next morning, especially if they did it on a night when the parks close early.

As a side note, concrete (if formulated and installed correctly) is remarkably strong and long lasting. Before steel, everything was concrete. There are old buildings standing today that have concrete basement walls, and formed-in-place concrete columns and beams. Having seen WDW's monorail beams, they look pretty darn good - especially after being power washed. The only place they're actually eroding is in the stations where oil drips on them (which is terrible on concrete). There are surface fissures in other places, but those don't cause any structural deficiencies.
 

wdw71fan

Well-Known Member
After seeing this, it jogged my memory (finally). Thanks for the pic.

Could it be a scenario where the tracks are getting out of alignment horizontally? Perhaps the large span plate, which is cast into the pylon and each beam, is the component that's actually contracting, thus pulling the beams laterally.

nope.. the seperation was linear with the beamway..

again, was... this is already over and really was the equivalent of a "nothing to see here" blown out of proportion by using the word damage. there was no damage... there was a risk of damage to the train tires and suspension based on weather conditions that effected the beamway expansion joint...
 

Tom

Beta Return
nope.. the seperation was linear with the beamway..

again, was... this is already over and really was the equivalent of a "nothing to see here" blown out of proportion by using the word damage. there was no damage... there was a risk of damage to the train tires and suspension based on weather conditions that effected the beamway expansion joint...

Yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with the beams. I knew that from the first valid description of what was going on. I was just trying to figure out what exactly was happening.

If it's so extreme that they have to alter the travel of the train that much, maybe it would behoove them to investigate a better method of spanning the two beams. But then again, is it worth it to go to that expense for what - 2 or 3 days a year, at max?
 

BalooChicago

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure an in place retrofit is possible. 40 year old cement is certainly not as strong as it was when it was first laid down.

40 years is nothing in terms of concrete age. Concrete gets stronger as it ages. The concrete in the Pantheon is nearly 2000 years old.
 

Rasvar

Well-Known Member
If you look closely at the LV photo, you'll see that the joint was actually installed after the fact. Granted, the concrete was new, but it was sawcut and then attached. The edge of the concrete on top, where it meets the plate, is cleanly cut. It wasn't formed that way.

They just built a maintenance spur, and could test a joint at the end of that beam. Or, at the end of a beam in the garage (I presume...I've never seen them in person) since that concrete is the same age. There's plenty of places to do a little R&D.

The fix then is quite simple. There is no rebar up in the top of the beam where this plate would be inserted. It's only about 3" deep, and is probably just a cap anyway, and isn't a full 3" thick. You score off the concrete, drill in some Hilti expansion anchors and use 2-part epoxy to adhere them. Then you bolt down the plate, and voila, it's literally done. The work could be done and the epoxy cure before they send out trains the next morning, especially if they did it on a night when the parks close early.

As a side note, concrete (if formulated and installed correctly) is remarkably strong and long lasting. Before steel, everything was concrete. There are old buildings standing today that have concrete basement walls, and formed-in-place concrete columns and beams. Having seen WDW's monorail beams, they look pretty darn good - especially after being power washed. The only place they're actually eroding is in the stations where oil drips on them (which is terrible on concrete). There are surface fissures in other places, but those don't cause any structural deficiencies.
[Complete re-edit after looking at some photos]
Actually you could test on a line near the roundhouse. Might mean leaving an extra monorail or two out of the roundhouse during the time needed to do such a test. Not sure how easy it will be to cleanly remove the current expansion teeth. This is really the part that I think could cause a problem. I don't think you want to have an accident that forces some kind of patching as a patch may not hold up to traffic load over the long term. It just seems unlikely the business case can be made to change these out lacking a major disruption of service or a safety issue. Supposedly these beams have a polystyrene core to make them lighter. So it may be possible to try without the risk of a full service disruption. I was unsure if there were similar joints near the roundhouse until I saw some recent photos.
 

monothingie

Make time to do nothing.
Premium Member
After seeing this, it jogged my memory (finally). Thanks for the pic.

Could it be a scenario where the tracks are getting out of alignment horizontally? Perhaps the large span plate, which is cast into the pylon and each beam, is the component that's actually contracting, thus pulling the beams laterally.

I think you're onto something here. In the picture of teal, going from the Cont to the MK look at the way the expansion joint. Original and unmodified since 1970/69

Monorail_expansion_joint.JPG



Now look at this one, slightly closer to the Contemporary (above the bus stop) and notice the addition of the cross-brace. Looks like it was added at some point after construction.

monorails-pink-lime-01-R.jpg



Got the image from http://www.florida-project.com/ great site for lots of high-res wallpaper friendly shots of the monorails
 

wdw71fan

Well-Known Member
I think you're onto something here. In the picture of teal, going from the Cont to the MK look at the way the expansion joint. Original and unmodified since 1970/69



Now look at this one, slightly closer to the Contemporary (above the bus stop) and notice the addition of the cross-brace. Looks like it was added at some point after construction.

Again, no... The seperation was as designed, 'linear' with the beamway..

Those plates that are on the beam in your photo were added to reduce beam shudder (see: vibration) as trains pass... Thats all
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
I would most definitely say it's nothing to worry TOO MUCH about. I mean, the pilots seem to know that they have to take care of their train in the stretch indicated, plus if need be, I'm sure WDW would/could re-design the 'teeth' to not slide out of allignment.
 

RunnerEd

Well-Known Member
Wonderful discussion of physics & engineering... now, does anyone have a repair schedule?

It's fixed now. Warm weather allowed the beams to expand to their normal size which allowed the trains to run at normal speed. The slow down was never a maintenance issue but simply a weather issue. They slowed the trains down in order to not damage them on the bumpy stretch which translates to (I know...unbelievable....) TDO did something right. Go figure.
 

rsoxguy

Well-Known Member
Well, now that the physics and engineering discussion is over due to the fact that there is no problem, I think it's time to re-route this train, so to speak.

Bron-Yr-Aur would be a great song to play over the Monorail sound system on the way to the Magic Kingdom from the TTC. Discuss.
 

PirateFrank

Well-Known Member
Hey folks,

I just wanted to stop by and quickly offer my apologies to everyone. I jumped down a lot of throats at the beginning of this thread, without good justification. I spent some time at work the past day or two doing some reading on expansion joints and I have to come to the conclusion that I was definitely wrong to let my trigger finger fly on this.

I will admit, the latest nextgen/xpass stuff really has me absolutely, uncontrollably steamed. Once I saw the cheap and nasty it's a small world artwork, I had it up to my eyeballs with reading about states of disrepair in the parks. This just became another example of it, without considering the more scientific, level-headed aspect.

While I feel I'm justified in my rant re:the absolutely disgusting boatload of cash spend on nextgen...it most definitely was misplaced and should never have taken place in this thread. I should have aired this out in the small world thread and perhaps the splash men animatronics thread.

Hopefully you guys can understand.

Now, back to your regular scheduled programming.


Oh, and if we're discussing Led Zeppelin tunes for the music in the monorail, I'll offer this strange tidbit. Each time I've gotten on the Monorail in the past 4-5 years, I can't get The Crunge out of my head.....go figure.
 

PhilharMagician

Well-Known Member
Again, no... The seperation was as designed, 'linear' with the beamway..

Those plates that are on the beam in your photo were added to reduce beam shudder (see: vibration) as trains pass... Thats all

Exactly. Those beams are so high at that point that all the movement in the columns is exagerated.

PirateFrank, it is easily to get lost in all the frustrations and hatred on the boards over the lack of maintenance. Unfortunately it seems that Disney gives us plenty of fuel to stoke the fire with. It does seem that here has been a change for the better lately.
 

devoy1701

Well-Known Member
I think you're onto something here. In the picture of teal, going from the Cont to the MK look at the way the expansion joint. Original and unmodified since 1970/69

Monorail_expansion_joint.JPG



Now look at this one, slightly closer to the Contemporary (above the bus stop) and notice the addition of the cross-brace. Looks like it was added at some point after construction.

monorails-pink-lime-01-R.jpg



Got the image from http://www.florida-project.com/ great site for lots of high-res wallpaper friendly shots of the monorails

Exactly. Those beams are so high at that point that all the movement in the columns is exagerated.

PirateFrank, it is easily to get lost in all the frustrations and hatred on the boards over the lack of maintenance. Unfortunately it seems that Disney gives us plenty of fuel to stoke the fire with. It does seem that here has been a change for the better lately.

Also...the beams in that shot by the Contemp that has those cross-braces are directly over the supports (only one track on those beams) and since they're much taller, I assume the added weight of a moving train can cause those beams to move more. The first picture of the lower beams near the TTC has 2 tracks over the support with the weight of the beams more dispearsed.

I'm not an engineer...just observing the difference!
 

devoy1701

Well-Known Member
It's fixed now. Warm weather allowed the beams to expand to their normal size which allowed the trains to run at normal speed. The slow down was never a maintenance issue but simply a weather issue. They slowed the trains down in order to not damage them on the bumpy stretch which translates to (I know...unbelievable....) TDO did something right. Go figure.

I'm confused now Tom. the cold spout we've had this past week wasn't even that cold. In fact compared to LAST year this winter in FL has been a no show. I don't remember any stories like this popping up then and we had a few weeks in Jan-Feb where it dropped below freezing for 4-5 consecutive nights for 6-8 hours a night and the highs only made it to the 50s.

Something isn't adding up for me.
 

Pioneer Hall

Well-Known Member
I'm confused now Tom. the cold spout we've had this past week wasn't even that cold. In fact compared to LAST year this winter in FL has been a no show. I don't remember any stories like this popping up then and we had a few weeks in Jan-Feb where it dropped below freezing for 4-5 consecutive nights for 6-8 hours a night and the highs only made it to the 50s.

Something isn't adding up for me.

Of course, I don't know for sure, but perhaps the reason we never heard about it is because there weren't as many people in the past on the constant lookout of things that are wrong with WDW. Ever since they announced the monorail hours change, minor hiccups that were never noted started becoming 40 page threads on this forum. This could be a regular winter occurrence and the only reason we are hearing this year is because some people just want to hear more about this sort of thing.
 

jakeman

Well-Known Member
Of course, I don't know for sure, but perhaps the reason we never heard about it is because there weren't as many people in the past on the constant lookout of things that are wrong with WDW. Ever since they announced the monorail hours change, minor hiccups that were never noted started becoming 40 page threads on this forum. This could be a regular winter occurrence and the only reason we are hearing this year is because some people just want to hear more about this sort of thing.
I think the more logical reason is that everyone here with their fancy schmancy "science" are just social media plants.

It has to be TDO's fault. It just has to be.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
Of course, I don't know for sure, but perhaps the reason we never heard about it is because there weren't as many people in the past on the constant lookout of things that are wrong with WDW. Ever since they announced the monorail hours change, minor hiccups that were never noted started becoming 40 page threads on this forum. This could be a regular winter occurrence and the only reason we are hearing this year is because some people just want to hear more about this sort of thing.

There is always the thought of the Cast Members.

What I mean is if I was a Monorail Cast Member, been on Platform for the past year, never in the cab of a train, and I JUST started driving last September, I wouldn't know about the expansion joints. Say I just started in September not knowing about the expansion joints, and I get up 3 weeks ago to pull a train out for open. I'm going through the indicated stretch, and never before seeing this gap in the joints, I'd be worried. I simply think that might be the case. Maybe a NEW pilot was concerned and voiced it??
 

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