Long term effects of WDC decision making, failure to innovate, and price gouging has caught up with WDW

[Jrb1979]

The other thing that concerns me, and it is not exclusive to Disney is that the definition of "vacation" has changed in the theme park world. As a kid and as young father with a family I would visit WDW and it was a very low stress, explore at your own pace, and relaxing experience.

Over the past decade or two it has morphed into a: how much crap can we fit in today, wake up early-go to sleep late, hurry, hurry, hurry, type of experience. Where the stress level was basically minimal to non-existant before - the needle has approached the red area now.

I miss strolling through the Disney Village not worrying or caring about time or that I had to be somewhere within the next 45 minutes. Disney has become a very stressful place. And the areas that existed that provided a little bit of escape (like the walkway between Poly and GF) have been removed and replaced with more: "Let's cram it all in".

It's like that at most parks you go to. Even if it's just for a long weekend. If you want a relaxing vacation, go to an all inclusive.

 

[TomboyJanet]

Disney needs a Renaissance like when Eisner/Wells came in. They'd have their work cut out for them, but man the possibilities with this company are endless. Brand rebuilding would definitely be needed.....badly. Another "Wonderful World of Disney" on Sunday nights would be a great start.....Rebuild that family connection.

MANNNN i miss the 90s so much. everything was so exciting. But remember eisner also greenlit the closing of Imagination's original form.....

idk how a guy with great ideas could make that bad of a decision but putting that aside he did have that fun hollywood snark that disney parks used to have. That sort of haha gotya feeling

 

[Andrew_Animatronic]

Attending annually for 22 years now, and I’ve seen and lived through the changes, so I’m throwing my 2 cents in.

A lot of the nostalgia I and others have had for the parks has eroded away within the past 10 years - this did not just randomly start with the COVID closures. The loss of identity of the WDW parks can be traced back to the change of MGM to HS and the loss of focus of the creation of great movies in exchange for a focus on “riding the movies.” This news heralded by creating immersive spaces like Galaxy’s edge and TSL that underdelivered in atmosphere and theming when compared to previous successful attempts of creating immersive spaces (see Pandora, Radiator springs, etc). This is why the renovations and replacement of muppetvision is being met with such apprehension - can Disney really pull it off in the company’s current state? Have they considered they still have alienated Star Tours from the rest of GE? What is their plan with the muppet coaster? Is the lackluster villains show here to stay?
(Side note, I was pleasantly surprised when, while walking into HS the other day, a cast member said “welcome to MGM” as he walked past before attempting to correct himself, but it will always be MGM to me).

Epcot’s identity has also been annihilated. No longer an optimistic view of the future and a celebration of different cultures around the world, it is now in the front a loose collection of IPs such as Guardians, Nemo, Moana, etc that barely tie into the theming of a “Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow.” Edutainment in the parks, something that inspired many children to pursue careers and interests based on how much they enjoyed a ride that they actually learned something on, has been abandoned as a concept, as management now believes it’s easier and more profitable to throw something people know wherever they have empty space/an old attraction. Epcot now exists to be the festival and drinking space - just look at how people describe the park as “naked” when not within a festival season. The company itself has sadly embraced the idea that Epcot is “the drinking+eating park.”

Animal kingdom has mostly been spared until recently with the renovation of Dinoland into “South America”(? Not sure?). It’s going to be quite a leap to tie archeologist Indianana jones to animals, and with the loss of Dinoland, the park loses its focus on extinct animals, one of the three original premises of the park.

MK is in flux. While some parts of the park have preserved their identity rather nicely even with new additions (Tomorrowland, Adventureland, fantasyland), the upcoming changes to Frontierland and fantasyland are being met with the same apprehension as the Monsters Inc retheme, and for good reason. They have removed the RIVERS OF AMERICA - something thought to be sacred ground as it was a “Walt idea” and considered with the same reverence as the Tiki room. Who knows now what else could be on the chopping block - hall of presidents? Small world? Tiki room itself? In their haste to modernize the parks, management seems to be forgetting that a) not everything needs to be an E-ticket, and relaxing spaces/rides exist for a reason, and B) the generational effect of parents/grandpants loving classic rides and wanting to show their kids/grandkids these iconic attractions.

I have not even mentioned the deliberate removal of perks and experiences in the park/resort that have either been replaced with a paid option (ex, fastpass) or removed entirely (ex magical express). Nickel and dimming the clientele makes them feel a lot more like “customers” and a lot less like “guests.”

I recently attended epic universe for the first time. While park does have a long way to go in terms of attraction numbers, the theming was amazing. Each portal truely felt like you were stepping into the movie/game/world, with even small details like lighting and ambiance carefully considered to immerse guests young and old. In addition, I would like to acknowledge the animatronic work, specifically the animatronics seen in dark universe - they have Navi shaman level realism, while Disney’s most recent forays into animatronics are either the lazy backlit faces, or the relatively impressive but not very realistic Tiana animatronics. Epic universe may be lacking in some areas (particularly shade!) and universal is certainly not “caught up” to Disney, but they are catching up!

Overall Disney needs to begin rethinking their strategy for both theme park additions and guest experience, or else these other (cheaper!) parks will begin to be viewed as the better option for vacationers.

 

[MaryJaneP]

What is the old saying? Something about acting in haste and regretting in leisure. Or in WDW mode, everything in leisure.

 

[Beacon Joe]

This is the baffling part to me, if Disney truly wanted to attract a more affluent crowd they’d simply raise their prices while offering the same premium service they’ve always offered, but that’s not what they’ve done, they’ve decided to nickel and dime everyone, while at the same time decreasing the experience, that would indicate they want the same crowd they’ve always had but they want to extricate a couple extra bucks out of each of them while simultaneously spending a couple bucks less on each of them.

Nothing they’re doing makes me think they want to lower attendance or attract a higher end clientele, it seems they just want to fleece their existing guest-base a bit more while they’re in the parks.

If they still offered the 2019 product at a 50% price increase we’d still be going, but with the diminished product we don’t feel we get our monies worth. The value just isn’t there anymore.

Very well said. If their goal was to attract and retain repeat, affluent customers, their dramatic decline in customer experience and customer service would not have been allowed.

I grew up going to DL and DW in the 80s and 90s. When we started bringing our own kids almost 20 years ago, things had changed, but the experience was still worth the expense, especially given the high levels of friendly and engaging customer service.

We finally threw in the towel and stopped going a couple of years ago - the park and resort experiences and atmosphere had fallen a lot (cleanliness, maintenance, wallcot, the FP system changes I never really knew how to use and that seemed to change and become more expensive each subsequent visit), but it was the terrible level to which customer service had fallen which was the deciding factor.

Why would we continue to pay so much for everything to be impersonal and app-forward, and when we do actually interact with park and resort employees, to be treated rudely or at best with apathetic dismissiveness?

 

[John park hopper]

Very well said. If their goal was to attract and retain repeat, affluent customers, their dramatic decline in customer experience and customer service would not have been allowed.

I grew up going to DL and DW in the 80s and 90s. When we started bringing our own kids almost 20 years ago, things had changed, but the experience was still worth the expense, especially given the high levels of friendly and engaging customer service.

We finally threw in the towel and stopped going a couple of years ago - the park and resort experiences and atmosphere had fallen a lot (cleanliness, maintenance, wallcot, the FP system changes I never really knew how to use and that seemed to change and become more expensive each subsequent visit), but it was the terrible level to which customer service had fallen which was the deciding factor.

Why would we continue to pay so much for everything to be impersonal and app-forward, and when we do actually interact with park and resort employees, to be treated rudely or at best with apathetic dismissiveness?

You echo my same sentiments been going since 1972 stopped going for the same reasons

 

[Animaniac93-98]

If they still offered the 2019 product at a 50% price increase we’d still be going, but with the diminished product we don’t feel we get our monies worth. The value just isn’t there anymore.

That 2019 is a baseline for quality shows how far WDW has fallen in such a short amount of time

2019 looked bad then compared to the days when you didn't have to pay a surcharge for park hopping access, unused days on tickets didn't expire*, you didn't have variable pricing on those tickets or pay extra for Fri-Sun room nights

And that's ignoring any other closures, entertainment cuts or changes to anything else.

Disney has been hoping that their customers would forget how much they've lost over the years, and now they have

*originally they didn't expire, then you had to pay extra to ensure they didn't, then they stopped that altogether...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

The value level dropped long before 2019…and the on the ground environment SUCKED.

But it’s accelerated as pointed out. It’s purely financial…they decided to join the rat race and always “increase profits” in the last decade and one of their primary business began to collapse at the same time. Have to get the water…so they’re squeezing another rock.

Looks like crusieline and ads on streaming are next

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

Six flags is closing 2 of their parks soon. I think novelty of theme parks is going through a lull.

It is. IMO, it comes down to a few factors.
1. As Disney raised prices, others copied. There has also been industry-wide adoption of monetizing wait times. People want to be able to buy a park ticket and go on attractions for the included price with moderate waits.

FYI, I just recently went to a small 'local' amusement park, and it was very well populated. They are very old-school: no admission fee, and they still sell paper ticket booklets. Small rides are 1 ticket, bigger rides are 2-6 tickets. They also have a number of chance games, where for $1 you can play.

Much of the appeal of this park is the low-price point. I think most people are willing to spend $10-$50 for a few hours of - SIMPLE- fun.

2. Amusement parks are best when they amply allow for impulsivity. Modern WDW has sucked all the spontaneity out of visiting. People who have never been to WDW are balking at the absurd prices paired with the absurdity of WDW's stupidly complex/rigid Express Pass rules. Today's leadership can't even come up with a simple name for their Express Pass! They have absurdly chosen to punish anyone who does learn the rules by changing them over and over. We had: original FP, FP+, FP that could be bought when staying club level, G+, genie-, Genie+, LLMP, ILL's, VIP tours, and now LL$$$$$. It is just such a mess! And that's just their Express Pass!

3. WDW has also adopted an absurdly complicated array of ticket options and prices. At the fun park, I walked up, plunked down a $1, and by the time it was collected a minute later, I was already enjoying my game. No wait, no thinking about it. Since we were having fun, we continued to spend more. Now I've been there before, so I wasn't 100% mindlessly spending $, but that pure rush of being drawn into the moment is a part of what makes amusements exciting and fun.

4. Another mistake many parks have made is what I call the BIGGER, MOST EXTREME aspect. Many try to have the BIGGEST, FASTEST, MOST EXTREME thrill rides. Extreme rides appeal to a segment of the population, but I think many people don't enjoy doing only extreme rides all day. Many people prefer the variety of innovative family rides, fun shows, etc. Great parks need some thrill rides, but the best parks have a good mix. (Rides that only allow toddlers are also a problem.)

5. Parks must be kept clean! I have visited a few that were just plain nasty-dirty. I do not want to see swarms of flies, yellowjackets, mosquitoes, roaches, or even one mouse/rat - YUCK! People also don't want overflowing trashcans, unappetizing food, or foul restrooms.

 

[Beacon Joe]

2. Amusement parks are best when they amply allow for impulsivity. Modern WDW has sucked all the spontaneity out of visiting. People who have never been to WDW are balking at the absurd prices paired with the absurdity of WDW's stupidly complex/rigid Express Pass rules. Today's leadership can't even come up with a simple name for their Express Pass! They have absurdly chosen to punish anyone who does learn the rules by changing them over and over. We had: original FP, FP+, FP that could be bought when staying club level, G+, genie-, Genie+, LLMP, ILL's, VIP tours, and now LL$$$$$. It is just such a mess! And that's just their Express Pass!

It sucks the spontaneity and fun out of the experience for sure. My parents are getting up there in years and recently have been talking about maybe going for one last visit to DW the next time they're in Florida since they haven't gone in almost a decade. I've been biting my tongue and so far haven't recommended they don't go, but considering that I couldn't even understand how to properly use the "fastpass/fp+/genie/genie board/park reservation/genie +/LL/LL+/fancy pass/whatever else it's called" system the last time I went and had to wake up my son at the crack of dawn to take care of ride reservations for us... I fear if they do end up making one last visit, it'll be a frustrating and expensive disaster for my parents.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It sucks the spontaneity and fun out of the experience for sure. My parents are getting up there in years and recently have been talking about maybe going for one last visit to DW the next time they're in Florida since they haven't gone in almost a decade. I've been biting my tongue and so far haven't recommended they don't go, but considering that I couldn't even understand how to properly use the "fastpass/fp+/genie/genie board/park reservation/genie +/LL/LL+/fancy pass/whatever else it's called" system the last time I went and had to wake up my son at the crack of dawn to take care of ride reservations for us... I fear if they do end up making one last visit, it'll be a frustrating and expensive disaster for my parents.

They shouldn’t go…
Or you or someone has to preplan the trip and “walk them through it” to try and hide the planning system they’ve forced on everyone.
And it’s still aggravating

This is the way they wanted it

 

[Jrb1979]

They shouldn’t go…
Or you or someone has to preplan the trip and “walk them through it” to try and hide the planning system they’ve forced on everyone.
And it’s still aggravating

This is the way they wanted it

I don't know what's worse the fact Disney wanted to this way. Or that a lot of guests actually love the spreadsheet planning

 

[Animaniac93-98]

4. Another mistake many parks have made is what I call the BIGGER, MOST EXTREME aspect. Many try to have the BIGGEST, FASTEST, MOST EXTREME thrill rides. Extreme rides appeal to a segment of the population, but I think many people don't enjoy doing only extreme rides all day. Many people prefer the variety of innovative family rides, fun shows, etc. Great parks need some thrill rides, but the best parks have a good mix. (Rides that only allow toddlers are also a problem.)

EPCOT went 40 years without any roller coasters and was more successful than nearly every other park that did (except MK and DL) in the USA. The success of Disney theme parks is in no small part due to their multi-generational, accessible appeal.

Making Disney theme parks more expensive, more complicated and less comfortable limits their potential audience.

 

[Nunu]

They shouldn’t go…
Or you or someone has to preplan the trip and “walk them through it” to try and hide the planning system they’ve forced on everyone.
And it’s still aggravating

This is the way they wanted it

WDW has become too complicated, even for this parks veteran. I navigate most visits the old fashioned way whenever I can. I hate the idea of being glued to my phone at all times, and even though I (still) can do things like mobile order, I chose not to, lol.

I can't fathom the idea of my 82yo dad making a WDW trip by himself, not even if I pre-planned everything for him. He speaks very basic English, he's not tech savvy, and as many seniors, is prone to get overwhelmed when things get complicated.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

EPCOT went 40 years without any roller coasters and was more successful than nearly every other park that did (except MK and DL) in the USA. The success of Disney theme parks is in no small part due to their multi-generational, accessible appeal.

Making Disney theme parks more expensive, more complicated and less comfortable limits their potential audience.

Yes

But it’s the Price and the micro planning/transactions that have become the real “limiting agent”

If they were honest about their feedback - which they probably have but never present properly - those would be at the tops of the complaint list by a wide margin. Not going out on a limb here

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

WDW has become too complicated, even for this park veteran. I navigate most visits the old fashion way whenever I can. I hate the idea of being glued to my phone at all times, and even though I (still) can do things like mobile order, I chose not to, lol.

I can't fathom the idea of my 82yo dad making a WDW trip by himself, not even if I pre-planned everything for him. He speaks very basic English, he's not tech savvy, and as many seniors, is prone to get overwhelmed when things get complicated.

You would know better than to try to let him though…

It’s a tough dilemma for others. You never want to “limit” those close to you. So it’s counter instinctive to say to someone “you can’t handle it..”

But that’s what these people have done…by choice. Created the monster. Vacation should never require more work than work…and that is a growing refrain that only intensifies.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I don't know what's worse the fact Disney wanted to this way. Or that a lot of guests actually love the spreadsheet planning

Some do…but I think that tends to be a certain segment…who they tried to transition to years ago…and in theory is who they want.

There just isn’t enough of them.

 

[John park hopper]

It sucks the spontaneity and fun out of the experience for sure. My parents are getting up there in years and recently have been talking about maybe going for one last visit to DW the next time they're in Florida since they haven't gone in almost a decade. I've been biting my tongue and so far haven't recommended they don't go, but considering that I couldn't even understand how to properly use the "fastpass/fp+/genie/genie board/park reservation/genie +/LL/LL+/fancy pass/whatever else it's called" system the last time I went and had to wake up my son at the crack of dawn to take care of ride reservations for us... I fear if they do end up making one last visit, it'll be a frustrating and expensive disaster for my parents.

I would lay it on the line it is not the Disney they remember and they will be severely disappointed.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

MANNNN i miss the 90s so much. everything was so exciting. But remember eisner also greenlit the closing of Imagination's original form.....

idk how a guy with great ideas could make that bad of a decision but putting that aside he did have that fun hollywood snark that disney parks used to have. That sort of haha gotya feeling

He was there too long. It’s too long/too much in the fat cat chair to have any sense of reality and necessity beyond your own head…

Why does that seem important? I dunno…maybe I’m just crazy town?

As far as imagination goes. There was and still is a revisionist history with Epcot. A lot of it was on him…but he saw that the parks original omnirides and AA heavy pavilions weren’t gonna hold up. The Imagination turntable thing was a mess…

But he didn’t commit to a full revamp and he trusted they could pull something great at imagination and the deck was stacked against them due to mandates

Was that bad? Yes

Is it “better” now 20 years later and no better as far as revamp and cohesion with way more money to spend?

You decide.

 

[Chi84]

I would lay it on the line it is not the Disney they remember and they will be severely disappointed.

If they were there less than 10 years ago, what is so different that they would be severely disappointed?