Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Chi84]

I like that second paragraph so much, i read it three times!

It will fall on deaf ears, though. Folks are more concerned about "me"! "My" Disney planning techniques!

[ETA: Touring Plans are great, of course, but that's because they work outside the system, externally. They aren't the system. They worked even better pre-FP+.]

It's not a matter of falling on deaf ears. I started going to WDW in 1984 as an adult and have visited just about every year since (often twice a year). When someone glorifies the idea of all-standby, I know what those days were like. Sure - you could get on the less popular rides without as long a wait, but the lines for the headliners were prohibitive. That's fine for people who don't mind standing in lines that are "constantly moving" for 60 to 90 minutes. But thank goodness there are enough of us who actually remember what it was like who don't want to go back to those days. And yes, when it comes to a vacation at a very expensive theme park, people are allowed to do what's best for themselves without feeling guilty about it.

 

[Casper Gutman]

It's not a matter of falling on deaf ears. I started going to WDW in 1984 as an adult and have visited just about every year since (often twice a year). When someone glorifies the idea of all-standby, I know what those days were like. Sure - you could get on the less popular rides without as long a wait, but the lines for the headliners were prohibitive. That's fine for people who don't mind standing in lines that are "constantly moving" for 60 to 90 minutes. But thank goodness there are enough of us who actually remember what it was like who don't want to go back to those days. And yes, when it comes to a vacation at a very expensive theme park, people are allowed to do what's best for themselves without feeling guilty about it.

You could almost always avoid such lines because they ebbed and flowed across the day. And you are certainly free to not feel guilty for liking a system that catered fairly directly to your touring style. But that system also put some guests at a distinct disadvantage, preventing them from riding certain new rides entirely even after paying to enter the "very expensive theme park." Having accepted and even welcomed a system that disadvantages some styles of touring and benefits others, it shouldn't come as much of a surprise when that system shifts and you no longer find yourself among the favored group.

 

[solidyne]

It's not a matter of falling on deaf ears. I started going to WDW in 1984 as an adult and have visited just about every year since (often twice a year). When someone glorifies the idea of all-standby, I know what those days were like. Sure - you could get on the less popular rides without as long a wait, but the lines for the headliners were prohibitive. That's fine for people who don't mind standing in lines that are "constantly moving" for 60 to 90 minutes. But thank goodness there are enough of us who actually remember what it was like who don't want to go back to those days. And yes, when it comes to a vacation at a very expensive theme park, people are allowed to do what's best for themselves without feeling guilty about it.

Fair enough. I do recall 20,000 Leagues sometimes being "prohibitive" (to my parents, anyway) due to its wait.

For the record, though, I started going to WDW in 1974, and I nevertheless favor all-standby, so it is not a case of not having been there in the bad old days.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

It's not a matter of falling on deaf ears. I started going to WDW in 1984 as an adult and have visited just about every year since (often twice a year). When someone glorifies the idea of all-standby, I know what those days were like. Sure - you could get on the less popular rides without as long a wait, but the lines for the headliners were prohibitive. That's fine for people who don't mind standing in lines that are "constantly moving" for 60 to 90 minutes. But thank goodness there are enough of us who actually remember what it was like who don't want to go back to those days. And yes, when it comes to a vacation at a very expensive theme park, people are allowed to do what's best for themselves without feeling guilty about it.

Right - which is why when FP first started it was designed to just be used for a handful of rides - those headliners - so you get one of those and then ride the "lesser attractions" that were only standby and had some line, but not *that* much, while you wait for your return time for the headliner that carried the 90 min wait ....

... But then those FP ran out as not enough for everyone at the park and they add more and more rides and the whole thing falls apart

Personally I am fine with a line skipping system but only use it on rides that really need it (maybe should just be ILL - sold individually or as a package) .... Key is having enough "other stuff to do" while waiting for your return time. And this is all magnified by reduced entertainment, not all character meets back, etc ... There just isn't enough stuff to do so people just get on a line even if long as have to wait anyway

 

[Chi84]

Fair enough. I do recall 20,000 Leagues sometimes being "prohibitive" (to my parents, anyway) due to its wait.

For the record, though, I started going to WDW in 1974, and I nevertheless favor all-standby, so it is not a case of not having been there in the bad old days.

It wasn't just 20,000 Leagues lol. The lines for Splash and Space Mountain routinely exceeded 90 minutes. The reason I stressed that I was an adult when we first started going is that kids don't really have much say in the matter of whether or not to stand in long lines. We were juggling multi-generational trips during the standby years, with my elderly mom and our very young kids. It's a different story.

In any event, skip the line systems exist in pretty much every major theme park in the world, so they're not going anywhere. Disney has to find a way to make one work at WDW. The answer is not to go from a system that worked very well for a good number of guests to one that has resulted in the lowest guest satisfaction scores in WDW history. The product has been so poorly received that it's widely reported WDW is changing it.

 

[crazy4disney]

I'm younger then you and I have seen many, many, many walk-ons in the days before FP+. In fact, during the brief period when there was no line-skipping for RotR, after boarding groups but before LL, I walked on that ride (yes, the crowds were lower - it's still remarkable). Eliminating line-skipping systems gets rid of the artificial levelling effect that ensures all rides have lines and that lines stay consistent(and slow) from open to close. There is much more fluctuation in line length over the course of the day and between attractions.

Listen im not saying it cant happen but as i said. Walk on during the prime hours excluding rope drop and end of night line have existed. Rope dropping has been the best “tip” since inception as is staying in parks til they close back in day when the parks actually stayed open til midnight 1 am….

 

[Chi84]

Listen im not saying it cant happen but as i said. Walk on during the prime hours excluding rope drop and end of night line have existed. Rope dropping has been the best “tip” since inception as is staying in parks til they close back in day when the parks actually stayed open til midnight 1 am….

That's true. If you're willing to stay in the parks from the minute they open until closing, you will likely get to ride all the attractions even without line skips. The beauty of line skip systems is that you don't have to do that. We could spend the morning relaxing at the resort pool or a water park, then hit the theme parks in the late afternoon or evening for dinner and our three FP+ (for the headliners - the rides we actually wanted to ride).

No one is going to agree on this issue because the way people vacation is very subjective. I may not be in the majority as far as how I like to spend my time at WDW, but my version of the perfect vacation is no less worthy than the version of someone who wants to ride every attraction in MK in one day.

 

[solidyne]

That's true. If you're willing to stay in the parks from the minute they open until closing, you will likely get to ride all the attractions even without line skips. The beauty of line skip systems is that you don't have to do that. We could spend the morning relaxing at the resort pool or a water park, then hit the theme parks in the late afternoon or evening for dinner and our three FP+ (for the headliners - the rides we actually wanted to ride).

No one is going to agree on this issue because the way people vacation is very subjective. I may not be in the majority as far as how I like to spend my time at WDW, but my version of the perfect vacation is no less worthy than the version of someone who wants to ride every attraction in MK in one day.

It's true that everyone has different touring styles, different preferences for planning. The problems arise when Disney imposes systems that favor one over the other. The bigger the imposition, the worse off more people are (though there always will be some who love it).

From weakest imposition to strongest:

(1) ALL STAND-BY
Guests can use rope drop, late night, or Touring Plans to suit their taste (or skill or endurance!) but everyone "competes" on a level playing field, even if they bring different "abilities" to the "game."

(2) LEGACY FP
This seems to be a favorite, for good reason. It seems the benefits (getting what you want) outweigh the costs (longer standbys) for most people. A slight imposition.

(3) FP+
(4) G+
These disasters are well documented, the latter being a huge imposition, given the apparently unexpectedly high number of users.

Notice how it is trending in one direction over time?

Count me among those who say that if there must be some kind of line-skipping system, it should be high-priced in order to limit the number of users (and limit the imposition). I go to Universal, for example, and barely notice those who have elected to purchase their whatever pass. I don't even know what it's called! That's how little it disrupts.

 

[Chi84]

I go to Universal, for example, and barely notice those who have elected to purchase their whatever pass. I don't even know what it's called! That's how little it disrupts.

That could be because all of their deluxe resort guests are getting it free. If everyone had to purchase the pass there may not be enough of them to take the stress off the standby lines.

If Disney decides to go the Universal route and give free line skips to deluxe resort guests, many of whom are DVC, count me in! Unless and until that happens I think we have to accept the fact that Universal’s system won’t work at WDW.

ETA: Universal is much more about the rides than WDW so people may be more willing to pay for expensive passes there. I don’t think WDW guests would receive it the same way.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

The reason I stressed that I was an adult when we first started going is that kids don't really have much say in the matter of whether or not to stand in long lines. We were juggling multi-generational trips during the standby years, with my elderly mom and our very young kids. It's a different story.

Not in my family. To us, part of the fun of going with small children is seeing the park through their eyes, seeing what makes them happy, and giving them some say in what we do.

While there were certainly times everyone was encouraged to try experiences that were new/outside their comfort zone, we also regularly split up if say - part of the group wanted to ride Space Mtn and part of the group didn't.

It always amazes me that most of the time, we easily compromise.

 

[Jrb1979]

That could be because all of their deluxe resort guests are getting it free. If everyone had to purchase the pass there may not be enough of them to take the stress off the standby lines.

If Disney decides to go the Universal route and give free line skips to deluxe resort guests, many of whom are DVC, count me in!

They do calculate those Express Passes into how many are available each day. If Disney went that route only deluxe guests and DVC would get it and it wouldn't be available to everyone else.

Genie+ can work if they cap sales. If they capped sales to 25% of guests each day it would work like planned. No matter what they do it has to have limited access. Genie+ proves that letting everyone buy it makes it a failure.

Not in my family. To us, part of the fun of going with small children is seeing the park through their eyes, seeing what makes them happy, and giving them some say in what we do.

While there were certainly times everyone was encouraged to try experiences that were new/outside their comfort zone, we also regularly split up if say - part of the group wanted to ride Space Mtn and part of the group didn't.

It always amazes me that most of the time, we easily compromise.

Agreed. It's how my family does any amusement park we visit. Very rare we stick together except for meals.

 

[Chi84]

Genie+ can work if they cap sales. If they capped sales to 25% of guests each day it would work like planned.

How are they going to cap it though? I’m not planning a ridiculously expensive WDW vacation only to get there and be told I have to stand in long lines every day because line skips are sold out at a price I can afford and am readily willing to pay. If you think guest satisfaction is low now, institute that system and see what happens.

 

[mysto]

G+ will work better for people who stay on site and want to plan closer to thier actual visit. I suspect FP+ folks are disproportionately vocal in this thread for a few reasons. For one thing, many of the people put off by FP+ have already curtailed their WDW visits and stopped visiting WDW boards. For another, WDW has essentially constructed a multi-pronged system over the last several years which, via ADRs, park reservations, FP+, and other systems, has trained guests that advanced micromanaged planning and a complete lack of spontaneity is the “correct” way to do Disney. G+, which disadvantages that approach, is thus seen as a betrayal of that favored touring approach and, as such, fundamentally incorrect. Why is Disney harming the fans who do Disney “right?”

G+ still favors micromanaged planning, just not as thoroughly as FP+ did. I know you say it's disadvantaged so maybe that's what you mean, but planners are not at an overall disadvantage to non-planners under G+. You still have to coordinate your ILL, G+, ADR times with your standby waits. You have to strategically select among the offers, choose when to arrive (for example stacking for an afternoon hop or RD).

What's different is you have fewer options and less time to consider them. Less power over any changes.

Both systems punished offsite guests pretty strictly. "bad guest!" smack

 

[crazy4disney]

It's true that everyone has different touring styles, different preferences for planning. The problems arise when Disney imposes systems that favor one over the other. The bigger the imposition, the worse off more people are (though there always will be some who love it).

From weakest imposition to strongest:

(1) ALL STAND-BY
Guests can use rope drop, late night, or Touring Plans to suit their taste (or skill or endurance!) but everyone "competes" on a level playing field, even if they bring different "abilities" to the "game."

(2) LEGACY FP
This seems to be a favorite, for good reason. It seems the benefits (getting what you want) outweigh the costs (longer standbys) for most people. A slight imposition.

(3) FP+
(4) G+
These disasters are well documented, the latter being a huge imposition, given the apparently unexpectedly high number of users.

Notice how it is trending in one direction over time?

Count me among those who say that if there must be some kind of line-skipping system, it should be high-priced in order to limit the number of users (and limit the imposition). I go to Universal, for example, and barely notice those who have elected to purchase their whatever pass. I don't even know what it's called! That's how little it disrupts.

Here is the problem with rope drop. Its impossible with young children which obviously is a good chunk of your crowd. Also impossible if you want to do any character breakfast. & late hours are the same.

By far my last trip in November using Genie. Was the worst when jt came to rides and availability & i have DAS as well.
And dont forget park capacity was less than it was now and Genie was still new and less people using it.

The substitution of being able to pre book 2 rides helped as they were in theory “FP” attractions but times were far from ideal and obviously every ride was not eligible.

Everyone hated VQ BG for Rise yet to me Genie is that on steroids. Every one mad dashing at 7am. Times moving how they have actually kept this in place for now 8-9 months is baffling.

 

[DisneyHead123]

Hence why Genie is awful. Imagine being a billion dollar company with guests willing to pay for a product & having probably more data and analytics on them & somehow messing this up soooo badly you ticked off almost everyone & its so bad you are already looking to change it. But welcome to Disney in the 21st century under the new regime.

Yeah I think that’s what it comes down to. I feel like there’s no point in discussing this in moralistic terms, as if some park goers are selfish for wanting a different product than other park goers. Maybe I want McDonald’s to make health food, or Old Navy to sell more turtlenecks, or whatever the case may be. Whatever, we’re all free to have those preferences. Consumer preferences are supposed to be the driver here - appeal to the most customers possible. And clearly that hasn’t happened with G+.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

How are they going to cap it though? I’m not planning a ridiculously expensive WDW vacation only to get there and be told I have to stand in long lines every day because line skips are sold out at a price I can afford and am readily willing to pay. If you think guest satisfaction is low now, institute that system and see what happens.

They already cap elements now though - ILLs can be sold out so you could show up and be told, sorry, you can't buy an ILL for Rise and there are only so many LL return slots so now you can buy G+ only to find out there is nothing to get a return time too

While it will upset some to not be able to buy something I still think that is better than people buying something and not being able to get much use out of it - at least you have saved the $ from not buying it)

 

[Jrb1979]

How are they going to cap it though? I’m not planning a ridiculously expensive WDW vacation only to get there and be told I have to stand in long lines every day because line skips are sold out at a price I can afford and am readily willing to pay. If you think guest satisfaction is low now, institute that system and see what happens.

I don't know the answer. All we all know is that too many people have Genie+. The only way to fix it is cap sales. The worst part of this whole thread is that unless they bring back FP+ or pre-booking that the system will be awful.

Yeah I think that’s what it comes down to. I feel like there’s no point in discussing this in moralistic terms, as if some park goers are selfish for wanting a different product than other park goers. Maybe I want McDonald’s to make health food, or Old Navy to sell more turtlenecks, or whatever the case may be. Whatever, we’re all free to have those preferences. Consumer preferences are supposed to be the driver here - appeal to the most customers possible. And clearly that hasn’t happened with G+.

I agree that park goers want a system that works for their touring style. From my perspective that no matter what system they use it can't be available to everyone. There is a reason every other park caps sales and why Genie+ isn't working.

 

[Chi84]

Yeah I think that’s what it comes down to. I feel like there’s no point in discussing this in moralistic terms, as if some park goers are selfish for wanting a different product than other park goers. Maybe I want McDonald’s to make health food, or Old Navy to sell more turtlenecks, or whatever the case may be. Whatever, we’re all free to have those preferences. Consumer preferences are supposed to be the driver here - appeal to the most customers possible. And clearly that hasn’t happened with G+.

I agree. We’re talking about discretionary spending at an expensive vacation venue. When someone refers to what works for most people, they often mean what works for people who do things the “right” way, i.e., their way.

 

[DisneyHead123]

I agree that park goers want a system that works for their touring style. From my perspective that no matter what system they use it can't be available to everyone. There is a reason every other park caps sales and why Genie+ isn't working.

I thought FP+ worked well but I’d have to see customer satisfaction data to know for sure. I’d actually be really curious what that looked like.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Anyone want to hear my honest, unbiased review of genie +, lightning lane, prix fixe meals, closed down water parks in the summer, and 108 degree heat indexes?

…I’ll be at the bar prepping it if you need me