Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[nickys]

The garbage continues.

At Epcot first thing and tried to get either a LL+ or Virtual queue...no chance.

So was told to try at 1pm...which we did and it says 390 minutes return time.

Brilliant...so now we are to stay in the park till the evening? Wow....what a great system.

Did you try for the VQ at 7am?

The return time you have is a guesstimate. But you don’t necessarily need to stay in the park, you could go back to your resort and then come back later. You can watch the progress of the BGs as they are called. Even if you miss the time at which your group is called, usually the CMs will let you ride.

 

[Mousebucks6]

May I ask why you didn’t use it? We’re going next year with a group that size and I was trying to figure out what the issues are using Genie+ for a larger group.

I know that I'm not who you were asking, but as someone who recently went with a party of 7 there were many drawbacks. The biggest issue we ran into was the time you'd see for an attraction would change from what was originally shown to some other time as soon as we checked our party numbers in as a whole. Not all 7 would ride everything, so we had to adjust the party sizes (and yes I know they could've just scanned at the tap point, but they shouldn't have to either) each time. Inevitably the time we would obtain was much later than what was initially shown, either due to the delay in processing or perhaps they didn't have that time actually available for 7

 

[Thepuma]

What do you mean by how can that be? There's a lot of people trying at one time for that 1pm boarding group. You were lucky enough to get one.

Yes, that's the only way to ride. VQ or pay for it. Rise was like that for the longest time, way before Genie + or Rat was open. Did you not know that?

Yeah..I came two years ago just before the pandemic....I got in rise 3 times...just by waiting for the 7am (I think or 8am) virtual boarding groups time and every time got a boarding group within 3 hours...First time I got boarding group 7...then 23...then the last day 12.

It was easy...just wait till the clock ticks round, refresh..and boom we got a boarding group. Maybe it was becasue it was a quieter time or I just got lucky.

 

[dreday3]

Yeah..I came two years ago just before the pandemic....I got in rise 3 times...just by waiting for the 7am (I think or 8am) virtual boarding groups time and every time got a boarding group within 3 hours...First time I got boarding group 7...then 23...then the last day 12.

It was easy...just wait till the clock ticks round, refresh..and boom we got a boarding group. Maybe it was becasue it was a quieter time or I just got lucky.

Well, what can we do. I guess not go? I won't say we aren't going again, but definitely not until the world starts to come back from the supply issues and labor shortages. I don't fault Disney, but very noticeable on our trip. It bothered me way more than Genie.

I'm sitting here trying to stop myself from booking a cruise in April on the Celebrity Apex - hard to believe what we can get for almost half of what spend going to WDW! Gorgeous ship....

 

[Chi84]

I know that I'm not who you were asking, but as someone who recently went with a party of 7 there were many drawbacks. The biggest issue we ran into was the time you'd see for an attraction would change from what was originally shown to some other time as soon as we checked our party numbers in as a whole. Not all 7 would ride everything, so we had to adjust the party sizes (and yes I know they could've just scanned at the tap point, but they shouldn't have to either) each time. Inevitably the time we would obtain was much later than what was initially shown, either due to the delay in processing or perhaps they didn't have that time actually available for 7

I appreciate your weighing in on this. That happened a few times in October and there were just two of us. I suspect there may be even more of an issue is for a larger number.

 

[Thepuma]

I

Did you try for the VQ at 7am?

The return time you have is a guesstimate. But you don’t necessarily need to stay in the park, you could go back to your resort and then come back later. You can watch the progress of the BGs as they are called. Even if you miss the time at which your group is called, usually the CMs will let you ride.

I did yes...I just said nothing available...but I've done that 3 times at 7am and it's said the same. It's almost sold out within a second of it going live.

Why? If you wanted to ride, why did the return time matter (barring a dinner reservation or some other previously scheduled thing)? You could do anything in the interval.

Id been at the park from open...I tried to get a VQ and LL early and to no avail...i was told to try VQ at 1pm which I did....but when it said 390 minutes, I knew we wouldn't be in the park at 7.30 as we are meeting friends at 8pm the other side of town so had to give it up.

 

[Thepuma]

Well, what can we do. I guess not go? I won't say we aren't going again, but definitely not until the world starts to come back from the supply issues and labor shortages. I don't fault Disney, but very noticeable on our trip. It bothered me way more than Genie.

I'm sitting here trying to stop myself from booking a cruise in April on the Celebrity Apex - hard to believe what we can get for almost half of what spend going to WDW! Gorgeous ship....

Sometimes it's just the basics being neglected that's been annoying me - id say over half of the sanitiser stations were empty on our 2 week trip and that is unforgivable- its the basics of basics to keep people safe, yet they just neglect it.

People are paying above and beyond for Disney now because of their price hikes for Genie + and LL, so the very least they can do is spend money on sanitizer.

It's lazy and neglectful.

 

[Virtual Toad]

A few basic principles..

Express Pass is not intended to be a 'for everyone' solution - It is by design intended to be used only by a limited subset of the attendance. Contrast this with Fastpass which was intended to be used by all of your guests. Genie+ is still an 'everyone' product - it's not priced nor limited to be a finite audience like EP.

Utilization/Crowd Levels - Disney parks have trended to be more loaded than Uni outside peak periods. This means there is a great demand for such a line-skip/reservation system and greater expectation 'something needs to be available' all the time at Disney. The majority of time, the majority of Uni guests don't have EP at all and are fine. Meanwhile, Disney crowds are in meltdown if there is no FP available.

ExpressPass does not exist solely as that premium priced service - They have a large userbase who is gifted access to the service via their hotel booking. So its more challenging to qualify how many are actually buying the adhoc packages. So 'what people pay' is kinda nebulous. Uni has clearly made enough money from the last minute buyers to make it worth keep marketing it. I see it as capitalizing on a small % of customers that are willing to basically 'pay anything' to bypass lines. I highly doubt you see many people buying adhoc EP for more than 2-3 days in a trip. Disney has far more hotel rooms than Uni.. so if you did a hotel bundle at Disney you couldn't just use the simple 'deluxe' tier distinction.

The number of days you are on property - Disney trips tend to be far longer on avg than Uni. If it's a product you expect people to use every day, you have to consider someone's total investment expected. A several hundred dollar price point per day is more approachable if you only need to do it 1-3 times.. if you generally expect to use it 5 or more days.. the price point becomes far more problematic.

So to sum up.. EP is designed and priced to be used only for a subset of your population. In addition, Uni can get by without NEEDING to give all their users a line-skip because of their park crowd levels in general. Obviously as Uni grows in popularity that dynamic changes a bit.. but hasn't reached that saturation yet where Uni is a 'Expresspass or don't go' experience.

The fundamental difference in how much capacity is needed to feed the line-skip machine is a huge part of why the systems aren't directly inter-changable.

Yes, Disney could just turn around and charge $200/person for a line-skip service and say "ok, its only going to be for 5% of our visitors". But if 95% of visitors are left out.. either due to capacity or or financial accessibility then you are abandoning the majority of your userbase.. and their need hasn't diminished.

If Disney did that though— really limited the number of line-skipping participants by charging a high premium— wouldn’t the standby lines be diminished to the point where they would flow reasonably and be bearable once again? Or have we gone too far down the “everyone hates waiting in lines” path that we’ve reached the point of no return and standby lines are forever seen as onerous?

I guess the question is, would severely limiting access to the benefit end up benefiting everyone, moreso than the tedious (and from many reports, frustrating and disappointing) system that now attempts to give privileges to too many people with reduced benefits?

 

[UNCgolf]

If Disney did that though— really limited the number of line-skipping participants by charging a high premium— wouldn’t the standby lines be diminished to the point where they would flow reasonably and be bearable once again? Or have we gone too far down the “everyone hates waiting in lines” path that we’ve reached the point of no return and standby lines are forever seen as onerous?

I guess the question is, would severely limiting access to the benefit end up benefiting everyone, moreso than the tedious (and from many reports, frustrating and disappointing) system that now attempts to give privileges to too many people with reduced benefits?

I think capacity is too low at Disney for the standby lines to be bearable at busy times, at least for the major rides at the non-MK parks. There just isn't enough for people to do. They would flow better, but I think you'd still see 2+ hour waits for rides like Flight of Passage.

 

[lazyboy97o]

If Disney did that though— really limited the number of line-skipping participants by charging a high premium— wouldn’t the standby lines be diminished to the point where they would flow reasonably and be bearable once again?

Disney lacks the capacity. That’s the fundamental root problem. No scheme is going to work without addressing that problem. It’ll just be billions more spent on the next scheme.

 

[flynnibus]

If Disney did that though— really limited the number of line-skipping participants by charging a high premium— wouldn’t the standby lines be diminished to the point where they would flow reasonably and be bearable once again? Or have we gone too far down the “everyone hates waiting in lines” path that we’ve reached the point of no return and standby lines are forever seen as onerous?

It would limit the impact on the standby lines from the system, yes... but then you get back to the larger problem at Disney... crowds vs supply. Remember everyone complaining about no FP at all just 2 months ago? For 20 years now, Disney fans have been able to skip even 1hr lines.. a combination of that spoiling plus just greater crowds vs supply makes not addressing the majority of guests a problem.

A very limited, expensive, line skip system is doable - it just wouldn't address Disney's need to placate the majority of it's guests.

I guess the question is, would severely limiting access to the benefit end up benefiting everyone, moreso than the tedious (and from many reports, frustrating and disappointing) system that now attempts to give privileges to too many people with reduced benefits?

The answer is no - because people who only care about their experience will still complain about not having a line-skip - and wouldn't be able to stomach an extra grand a day, every day, for their family.

It would just feed the 'haves and have nots'.

 

[Virtual Toad]

Disney lacks the capacity. That’s the fundamental root problem. No scheme is going to work without addressing that problem. It’ll just be billions more spent on the next scheme.

I think capacity is too low at Disney for the standby lines to be bearable at busy times, at least for the major rides at the non-MK parks. There just isn't enough for people to do. They would flow better, but I think you'd still see 2+ hour waits for rides like Flight of Passage.

Agreed and agreed. I think it’s a combination of that and the public’s baked-in perception that waiting in long lines is a negative.

But going back to FP+, and FP before that, and 100% standby before that, someone (and really, a lot of people) was/were always waiting in a prohibitively long line.

The discussion is somewhat cyclical as (and I agree) it does come back to capacity, which they’ve reduced through limiting operating hours, cutting the number of diversions/minor attractions/parades and shows, and arguably overbuilding the number of available resort rooms. Building new super-headliners at less-than-optimal per-hour throughput rates doesn’t help either.

If they could correct those errors that would certainly help tremendously. But (academically at least), if building capacity is off the table and we can’t go back to FP, FP+ or standby only, how can the existing system be improved? Or can it be without scrapping it altogether?

 

[Virtual Toad]

It would limit the impact on the standby lines from the system, yes... but then you get back to the larger problem at Disney... crowds vs supply. Remember everyone complaining about no FP at all just 2 months ago? For 20 years now, Disney fans have been able to skip even 1hr lines.. a combination of that spoiling plus just greater crowds vs supply makes not addressing the majority of guests a problem.

A very limited, expensive, line skip system is doable - it just wouldn't address Disney's need to placate the majority of it's guests.



The answer is no - because people who only care about their experience will still complain about not having a line-skip - and wouldn't be able to stomach an extra grand a day, every day, for their family.

It would just feed the 'haves and have nots'.

Valid points as far as an honest and hard look at how a public groomed and molded into a “Lexus lane” mentality likely sees the situation. But the jury is still out as to whether Genie+ can provide enough value to make these folks happy either.

If I recall, there were indeed complaints about no FP during the pandemic “gap” — but there were also a lot of comments about how refreshing it was to experience the parks again without line-skipping schemes at all. How much reduced attendance played into that is open to debate of course.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Agreed and agreed. I think it’s a combination of that and the public’s baked-in perception that waiting in long lines is a negative.

But going back to FP+, and FP before that, and 100% standby before that, someone (and really, a lot of people) was/were always waiting in a prohibitively long line.

The discussion is somewhat cyclical as (and I agree) it does come back to capacity, which they’ve reduced through limiting operating hours, cutting the number of diversions/minor attractions/parades and shows, and arguably overbuilding the number of available resort rooms. Building new super-headliners at less-than-optimal per-hour throughput rates doesn’t help either.

If they could correct those errors that would certainly help tremendously. But (academically at least), if building capacity is off the table and we can’t go back to FP, FP+ or standby only, how can the existing system be improved? Or can it be without scrapping it altogether?

The perception is definitely a problem. People like the idea of supposedly instant gratification even if it is not actually being delivered. Disney originally advertised FastPass as offering 20 minutes or less in the queue but they dropped that description as they expanded the offerings and couldn’t actually keep to that limitation. People will happily use their “front of the line pass” and end up waiting 30 minutes while balking at the idea of a 25 minute stand-by wait.

There is no way you can fit more people. You can optimize here and there but it’s not enough to cover the wide gap. The only real solution is to match admission to capacity, so you either curtail how many people you are letting in or you add capacity. Volcano Bay had to reduce their admission capacity.

 

[flynnibus]

Valid points as far as an honest and hard look at how a public groomed and molded into a “Lexus lane” mentality likely sees the situation. But the jury is still out as to whether Genie+ can provide enough value to make these folks happy either.

Certainly a system that doesn't offer steady availability isn't going to work. The current model is fubar and isn't sustainable.

I wouldn't be suprised if Disney next turns to 'don't call us, we'll call you' model where passes are OFFERED vs requested. You mark your preferences and wait for the lottery.

 

[Virtual Toad]

Having an edict from high up in the company that any line-skipping system has to be monetized (to increase revenue short-term and create a new revenue stream long-term) doesn’t exactly help matters either. Now it’s a question of adjusting pricing to balance guest satisfaction (via perceived value based on price paid and availability of line-skipping selections) and profit. ETA: Or at least making the system more user-friendly. Or simply scrapping the whole thing and starting over.

Unless they believe they’ve already upon hit a price point that maximizes profits regardless of the guest experience. I guess time will tell.

 

[flynnibus]

If Genie+ worked as advertised... people would pay their $15 and go on with life. Same reason you don't see people complaining about their $15 or whatever when ILL works. They will pay...

People are going to pay what Disney offers as long as it's not 'cut off my arm' costs. The price isn't the issue - it's the fact they keep falling short on expectations. The money thing just throws gas on the fire.

 

[Virtual Toad]

If Genie+ worked as advertised... people would pay their $15 and go on with life. Same reason you don't see people complaining about their $15 or whatever when ILL works. They will pay...

People are going to pay what Disney offers as long as it's not 'cut off my arm' costs. The price isn't the issue - it's the fact they keep falling short on expectations. The money thing just throws gas on the fire.

I agree with others that a FP+ add on to your vacation package (with varying rates and availability based on which resort category is being purchased) would perhaps have made more sense. I also think over-reliance on cellphone tech is bogging the process down from a user perspective and adding to the frustration level. Instead of leisurely (comparatively speaking) planning out the passes from the comfort of your living room, you’re under the gun all day, every day of your vacation, planning on the fly but having to battle a cellphone app to do so. Instead of just enjoying your day at the parks.

The current system seems bloated with tedium and complications, is extremely time-sensitive, and costs money to boot when the previous systems were simpler and free.

All of that affects perceived value in an emotional situation that for many is already stressful to navigate.

 

[Jrb1979]

If Genie+ worked as advertised... people would pay their $15 and go on with life. Same reason you don't see people complaining about their $15 or whatever when ILL works. They will pay...

People are going to pay what Disney offers as long as it's not 'cut off my arm' costs. The price isn't the issue - it's the fact they keep falling short on expectations. The money thing just throws gas on the fire.

It still comes down not having enough capacity for any system to work properly. Since we all know that isn't happening any time soon they need to change how Genie+ works.

 

[flynnibus]

I agree with others that a FP+ add on to your vacation package (with varying rates and availability based on which resort category is being purchased) would perhaps have made more sense. I also think over-reliance on cellphone tech is bogging the process down from a user perspective and adding to the frustration level. Instead of leisurely (comparatively speaking) planning out the passes from the comfort of your living room, you’re under the gun all day, every day of your vacation, planning on the fly but having to battle a cellphone app to do so. Instead of just enjoying your day at the parks.

The current system seems bloated with tedium and complications, is extremely time-sensitive, and costs money to boot when the previous systems were simpler and free.

All of that affects perceived value in an emotional situation that for many is already stressful to navigate.

sure some people want a plan. But that also means sticking to your plan and being a slave to prior decisions.

checking your phone all the time is still easier then seeking out the tip boards.

Real ease would be a concierge that you could delegate the leg work too.

the adhoc system pitches that - it just doesn’t deliver because it can’t hand out what people want due to the extreme contention for the goods.

the grief over the phone is not about tech but really the issue that you have to keep coming back so much because people are trying over and over to try again to get what they want. It’s grief over failure and repeat… not the reliance on tech.

were fp+ praisers happy with just their 3fps and no park hopping? No - they used the tech as well and aren’t complaining now because they generally ended up with results they could deal with.

the issue is the repeated rejection - not tech