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Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World
- Thread starter wdwmagic
- Start date
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
I want to be a bit of a Devil's advocate here. Line skipping must result in some lessening of actually waiting in ride lines. You have not claimed otherwise, but I do see some people who seem to be confused. It is absolutely a shuffling of deck chairs and it does not create more capacity. More people are shunted outside the attractions, but doing what is another story.
We see that as a spectrum from Classical (no line skips)... to Express Pass/Genie+... to FP for all... to fully Virtual (like Volcano Bay). The beginning of that chain sees more people waiting in lines and the end sees people waiting in common areas.
Parsing it further apart the problem with classical Paper Fastpass (something people seem to still think is better) resulted in some of that time not spent waiting in lines used for running back and forth across the park to optimize their time. I personally did not like that system. Conversely, purely virtual results in literally not being allowed to wait in lines and clearly people also have rejected that concept from Volcano Bay.
What Genie+ creates, is more of a two-tiered system. The payees absolutely will wait less than the have-nots. Fastpass was shuffling around capacity and creating none. Genie+ is prioritizing capacity for money. It IS unfortunately better for some.
This is also *theoretically* a step back from FP for the masses, which is also a win for operations. At least some guests will be classically waiting in line.
I see the arguments that no system at all is better, but I cannot track anyone who thinks FP+ is the best choice. It simply isn't. At least everyone is not participating in Genie+.
Paper Fastpass was the worst of all, for the whole. Not only did it make no capacity, but it also wants you to constantly back track or run around the park.
Disneyland Summer 2019 with Galaxy's Edge. But I think that's a rare example that Disney was so afraid of crowding, that they effectively advertised to stay away and blocked out the majority of pass holders.
hopemax
Well-Known Member
Now you're misinterpreting my point by taking my reply in a different direction than the intent of my original post. Disney has a finite number of seats and high demand. Would Disney prefer those seats be distributed among as many unique people as possible (fewer re-riders) or fewer unique people (more re-riders)? It is my position Disney would rather the former situation happen more frequently than the latter, so they can satisfy more unique guests. However, Disney will be friendly to re-rides if guests buy those additional rides by some means (but not so friendly you can buy multiple on the same day). VIP Tours are the extreme version of the pay for multiple rides situation. If you make this into what individuals can theoretically do, then that is missing the point of what Disney would prefer to happen.
Yes, you can, so far, always decide to wait in standby as many times as you want, but in *practice* few people would choose to stand in the same 90+ minute line multiple times. There is an element of self-regulation, so from Disney's perspective the impact is minimized, and they can ignore it... for now. However, when Rise opened there were quite a few people who posted "check my itinerary" type posts and they would have 2 or 3 days starting at DHS for Rise BGs with the plan to hop elsewhere. Or with FP+ start in a park twice and pick the same set of rides, with a plan to hop before lunch. My out-of-state AP people on my F&F list would do this all the time, I'm guessing they weren't alone. FOP, SDMT, SDD (or previously TSMM)... multiple days worth of reservations and play Epcot by ear or utilize refresh, refresh, refresh in the other park. I am also saying Disney has a preference for guests not to tour this way. Disney's preference would be for guests to forgo the "drive-by" park hop, only consuming space on high demand attractions, freeing up incremental capacity for a unique guest intending to spend a full day in that park. Yes, it means that guests will be selecting alternate things in the park they spend all day in, but those attractions might have less pressure on them than the ones that they have foregone, or maybe a guest decides to sleep in instead, since they were fine arriving at Park 2 like by 11AM anyway. Disney's preference for park hoppers is they eat, shop, do attractions that aren't already overly crowded which means later in the day, not earlier. Disney wants park hopping to fill underutilized spaces, not so a fraction of guests can consume even more high demand spaces in their day.
With the reservation and park hopping restriction, the calculus for guests is different. If you decide you want to hit a couple AK rides, or DHS rides a 2nd or 3rd time at opening in an attempt to minimize your wait times, the cost isn't monetary but in your itinerary, you can't go somewhere else until 2PM. Which can deter people from doing that entirely because they don't want to spend 5 hrs in Park 1 on a 2nd or 3rd day, and/or waiting until 2PM isn't enough time in Park 2. So they will do it less, freeing up a little capacity. Likely at least as much as Disney freed up by stopping parents utilizing child swap to get more of their kids re-rides (another way Disney restricted re-rides spilled over to affecting vacationers and not just locals, which was my original point). Guests have proven to be incredibly imaginative at figuring out how to get re-rides while minimizing their waits, but that doesn't mean that an individual's success at accomplishing it means that Disney wants that to happen.
mikejs78
Well-Known Member
I don't think Disney cares if you ride a ride 2x or 4x per se.. It's just that operationally, FP+ was problematic as it increased in usage. As some here have said who are in the know, it was unsustainable because demand exceeded supply.
What you're describing is about headliners specifically. And maybe you're right there - they'd rather spread the capacity around, although I don't see any evidence about your "once per vacation" claim. Maybe once per day for FoP, Rise, etc. But I can't see them caring if I decide to get in the 30 minute BTMR or HM or (now) TSMM queues multiple times in a day.
In regards to park hopping - I think it has less to do with the idea of keeping people off the high demand attractions and more about staffing. If you look at the curve of a day at Disney, the peak time is 11 until about 3. After 3 things start to drop off a bit. I think the new PH restrictions are more about keeping hoppers out during most of the peak so they can microtarget their staffing needs in a given day from park reservations. Hoppers will start to fill in as others leave the park, but in a typical day won't grow beyond the peak.
Kamikaze
Well-Known Member
There were only a few days in its entire existence that it got near or over 50%. So no, thats not correct.
Kamikaze
Well-Known Member
Lets wait and see if that becomes an actual documented thing before we claim it is.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
The solution isn’t really staring them in the face. Due to the escalation of costs Disney isn’t really capable of just adding capacity, it costs way too much. Fixing that problem is a huge challenge.
They know they have a problem. That’s why TRON and Ratatouille were dropped in in a panic. Their multibillion dollar scheme to avoid having to add capacity did not work and the big public facing component (FastPass+) had to be scrapped.
ImperfectPixie
Well-Known Member
The $3 billion they sunk into FP+, MyMagic, and Genie would have gone a long way.
mikejs78
Well-Known Member
How about the % of guests who used paper FP at DL vs MaxPass?
Kamikaze
Well-Known Member
DLR has locals that go to the park just to eat or hang out and don't really worry about getting on attractions. FP usage at WDW was higher than combined at DLR. I don't have an exact number.
Jeff4272
Well-Known Member
If Genie+ has a 50% adoption rate, its all over..........the standby lines will be insane and the LL availability for later in the day will be awful, making Genie+ not worth it
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Jeff4272
Well-Known Member
The way i understand it is yes you could
Looking at TP app - their ride waits don't look as bad as last week did at the parks.
Of course that could just be me willing it to be that way...
2 days! This is the first trip I've been on in a long time where I feel like we are really just flying by the seat of our pants. We have no real plan except for our park reservations and a few sit down dinners. Should be interesting!
Of course that could just be me willing it to be that way...
2 days! This is the first trip I've been on in a long time where I feel like we are really just flying by the seat of our pants. We have no real plan except for our park reservations and a few sit down dinners. Should be interesting!
Especially if they would realize that a bunch of solid C/D tickets would add massive capacity, and really make folks happy. Imagine how popular a ride with an ET level suspended dark ride, or even a Mack powered suspended coaster, going through even a Pooh level, long, ride would be. Just do it for like $100 million, which is, you know, a LOT of money. When they are flirting with half a BILLION dollars for a ride like Tron, that is a low end $20 Million coaster at most
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Those Mack powered suspended coasters are expensive! Even $100 million is a lot and probably too much for C and even D Ticket experiences. Imagine more something like Justice League: Battle for Metropolis at the various Six Flags parks. They’re well regarded but still simple. Triple the budget and you’re still only looking at about $50 million for a decent little ride.
JMcMahonEsq
Well-Known Member
The problem I generally see in the standby only vs FP vs Genie Pay options is that it seems most people are arguing based upon a theoretical total park capacity theory or total wait time for all ride theory. I know it is true for myself, and I would argue for a majority of visitors, that I have no intention, or even want, to hit every single ride, every single day, on every single trip to a park (especially MK.) As a result, the general overall park capacity limitations and how FP or Genie would effect overall wait times, across all rides, is somewhat irrelevant. For our family, we loved the FP+ system. Its benefits to us were 1) we always stayed on property, so we had earlier access. 2) We visit MK multiple days per trip, so we aren't trying to hit all the rides in one day, we have other days in case we miss something, and 3) We had younger kids and don't want to wait in lines. That made FP a perfect system for us. Out of 3 FP selections, we would always get at least 1, if not 2 major selections per day. That meant no waiting in line at all. We would also always rope drop when possible, so we would be hitting several rides with no lines to start the day. For us we don't care if the average wait time per ride would be lower with only standard entry lines. We want no to limited wait times....for the rides we are riding that day. FP+ allows you to have that. And with unlimited reloading, you get the option to after your first 3 FP's to throughout the day limit your lines. IF it increases average wait times across the park....it doesn't really matter, unless you are trying to get on all the rides, every day.
disneygeek90
Well-Known Member
Okay yeah I forgot it wasn’t even as straightforward as showing up to an attraction when you want like Universal. Alright, then they’ll buy Genie+ and then scroll down the list of attractions and realize the one they want isn’t even included.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
No park capacity model assumes every guest is riding every ride. It’s an edge case and only works at scale by severely limiting capacity. That’s a boutique park and not a traditional theme park.
Increases across the park do matter because the selection you want are still part of that larger system. That spillover also impacts other areas like retail and dining. You might not be waiting in a ride queue but instead at a snack cart. The amount of FastPass+ passes being distributed also kept being nudged up for optics, so the FastPass+ queues still had waits and waits that were increasing. Then there was the separate issue of queues forming to enter the FastPass+ queue.
MickeyLuv'r
Well-Known Member
Huh?
I was saying WDW price increases might have reduced enthusiasm for Galaxy's Edge. Like, someone might have been willing to come for GE if they could get a hotel for $150/night, but not if the rate is $250/night + ticket prices went up + parking fees, etc.
If not, then they were not as enthusiastic. Maybe they took a wait-and-see attitude. Like, "Maybe I'll pay $250/night if GE sounds really great," or "Maybe I'll see GE a few months from now if I can nab a hotel for $150/night."
(Or whatever rates someone decided the are willing to pay.)
GE was also a bit of an imperfect roll out. It probably would have had a greater impact if the entire land had opened all at once. Some people went to see the opening of the land, some waited until the whole land opened. I'm sure some folks went for both, but probably all that many.
UNCgolf
Well-Known Member
I know -- that was my point.
I was saying that if price increases reduced enthusiasm for Galaxy's Edge, they're going to reduce enthusiasm for any future attractions, because the price increases aren't going to stop.