Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[hopemax]

How often did legacy Fastpass sell out on a normal day?

I don’t recall having issues securing a fastpass back in 2013… sure now that it’s paid there is a higher expectation.

I’d suspect there will not be as many people playing the game, simply as it’s no longer free, so I can’t imagine there will be an inventory issue.

The rides that could sell out within an hour were : Radiator Springs at DCA and TSMM before the 3rd track. Radiator Springs is $$ and TSMM is not the same situation as before, because of the increased capacity and other rides in DHS have become more valuable.

My recollection, the next tier were: Soarin (before the 3rd track and curvy Eiffel Tower), Test Track, Space Mountain ($$), Indiana Jones. The new rides in Epcot will change this calculus.

Splash would run through their times on summer days, less so on cold days. Whenever they take it down for re-theming will take it out of play and it will come back as $$.

But unlike paper FP, Disney now has the tools to counter early sellouts. Raise prices for the $$ until they last longer. Elevate Genie+ to $$. Like what happened with Le Cellier. As long as it was 1 credit, it was impossible. But then they made it 2 credits, and raised menu prices for those not on the dining plan, and other restaurants began to supersede it for ADR popularity.

 

[DCLcruiser]

How often did legacy Fastpass sell out on a normal day?

I don’t recall having issues securing a fastpass back in 2013… sure now that it’s paid there is a higher expectation.

I’d suspect there will not be as many people playing the game, simply as it’s no longer free, so I can’t imagine there will be an inventory issue.

I def recall paper fast passes running out during the day.

 

[wolfeman]

I think I may just wait in line…

 

[RSoxNo1]

Lemme solve this:

adding attractions no longer increases attendance to a significant level. It did in the 80s and 90s…but largely hasn’t since.

“Star Wars land” did really nothing. Not just because Disney doesn’t get Star Wars and missed.

…what new attractions does is sustain the loyal base and create new parts to it. Which the Bobs abandoned…but one day Will be embraced again.

“this is the way”

Star Wars Land was opened in full for less than a month of meaningful data that showed up on a TEA report. I would guess that DHS moved to the #2 park in Florida, that is not insignificant.

Look at the DAK additions over the last 15 years. They have resulted in increased attendance at that park that has been sustained. The same is true of the Harry Potter additions over at Universal.

Really, the only park that has failed to see attendance improvements other than marginal year over year improvements has been EPCOT, the park that has yet to see a true addition (and not a replacement) since 1989 if I'm not mistaken. Sure, you could make the case that Soarin' was a substantial addition relative to what it replaced but that's still one "addition" in 32 years. Ratatouille is the first true addition in that park in quite some time.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I think they are reducing the BG/VQ to 7 AM and then you have to pay for IAS. The 1 PM BG/VQ is gone.

Disney Genie, Genie+, and Lightning Lane FAQ for Walt Disney World

Your most frequently asked questions about the new Disney Genie service coming to Walt Disney World.

www.wdwmagic.com

20. Can I pay to ride Star Wars: Rise of the Resistance or Remy's Ratatouille Adventure?​

Yes. There are two options to access these attractions. You can join the virtual queue, which has no cost, beginning at 7am, or purchase a Lighting Lane entrance if available at the time.

I think @MisterPenguin may be inferring too much from the "beginning at 7 AM" line if that is what is being used to deduce that 1 PM window is going away. Is there other evidence that supports this?

There was also a hint from @marni1971 that boarding groups may be going away for Rise as well. Speaking logically, I would think it would be easier to sell people on an IAS if the ride had a 4 hour wait than if you have the opportunity of a boarding group.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Star Wars Land was opened in full for less than a month of meaningful data that showed up on a TEA report. I would guess that DHS moved to the #2 park in Florida, that is not insignificant.

Look at the DAK additions over the last 15 years. They have resulted in increased attendance at that park that has been sustained. The same is true of the Harry Potter additions over at Universal.

Really, the only park that has failed to see attendance improvements other than marginal year over year improvements has been EPCOT, the park that has yet to see a true addition (and not a replacement) since 1989 if I'm not mistaken. Sure, you could make the case that Soarin' was a substantial addition relative to what it replaced but that's still one "addition" in 32 years. Ratatouille is the first true addition in that park in quite some time.

1. What has the overall attendance done during that time?
2. What has magic kingdom done during that time?
3. Have you forgotten what was shown in Anaheim?

 

[RSoxNo1]

Completely random thought, but now whenever I think of Disney Genie I 100% envision the planning process as an episode of Screen Rant Pitch Meeting.

We're releasing a new comprehensive planning app with push notifications and paid options!

Did people want a new planning app?

Well they're gonna get one.

And this... Genie, you call it... this Genie communicates with a car from a Pixar movie who then makes the line a speedway? Does the car have magic too?

Sure yeah, I don't care.

Well you must have done a lot of market research on this.

Maybe. So anyways, this Genie, he's gonna grant wishes!!

Ooo, like for free stuff?

What are you kidding me?! No! You wish to pay for something!

Oh a very money grabby Genie! And will people love this new Genie rollout?

No, they'll absolutely hate it!

Then why are we ...

Because money sir! AND IP!

Oh money AND IP? Those are both of the things I like!!

That is all. Carry on.

Money Grabby Genies are tight!

 

[RSoxNo1]

They really don't care though. "This too shall pass".

They will care if people vote (or in this case don't vote) with their wallets. If they to get an additional $15+ per day out of guests and instead don't get the initial $115 per day + resort stays then they will absolutely change course.

 

[TimeTrip]

I remember breaking my neck to get to the parks at rope drop, running to the FP kiosks with hundreds of other, standing in the long kiosk line, only to find out all the FPs are gone for the day. I wouldn’t count on “plenty availability” for the rides you really need a FP for.

Thats assuming everyone that did legacy FP in the past will be paying up for g+. I don't think that will be true, not by a wide margin, but we'll see.

 

[Chi84]

I def recall paper fast passes running out during the day.

They did. We usually did Epcot as an evening park and we were never able to get them for Soarin'. Also, some of the return times in the first park were so late that we weren't able to use them because we wanted to take a break mid-day or go to another park in the evening.

 

[dovetail65]

I mean, for a family of 4 that's $60-80 more a day just for the MaxPass-type part. I'm sure that's hard for some people to swallow.

Should make those who prefer spontaneous park touring more happy. Might mean an increase in walking for someone like me who planned FPs to eliminate criss-crossing the park.

Except that, the way I'm reading it, the popular rides like 7DMT, etc. aren't included in that, and you have to pay per ride for those attractions.

All in all for my family of 8 for a 10 day trip is 3 k more for what we once had included. They don't garantee every ride avaiable either so people thinking this is just 15 bucks more go on anything you want won't get that 10 months a year. It may not be as bad as we thought but this is only good for a small parties that like to get up early and have their phones in their face while on vacation all day long. With 6 kids we left our phones in the room and got up at 11, that's over anyone wants value is forced to play a certain way. It no different than people feeling like they were forced to plan 60 days ahead and didnt like that.

I just dont see why we can't pay the 15 then go to the line we want when we want Instead of having to reserve the morning of then reserve again and again, the line will self regulate without the reservations especially seeing how the best attraction are a seperate paid for option anyhow. This is not spontaneous unless you call getting whats available even if you didnt want the attractions that are available at the time avaiable. The fine print straight out says attraction may not be available. I want haunted mansion then pirates or reverse but haunted mansion back to space mountain then back to pirates would be insane with a family like mine. This is why making 3 ahead of time is best OR simply not having reservation needed at all except for the major single pay rides.

We will soon see how it works, but no one can say it's only 15 a person its not a big deal because its another plus 24 for ROTR and possibly FOP,. It's more like 1500 to 3000 per trip, its substantial to most folks. For that amount it best work seamlessly and better than the old system not equal to it.

I am betting tweaking the first year. I just dont see that need to choose ride after ride one at a time in my phone.

 

[RSoxNo1]

1. What has the overall attendance done during that time?
2. What has magic kingdom done during that time?
3. Have you forgotten what was shown in Anaheim?

1. With the Pandora addition, attendance increase 15.27% and 10% in DAK from 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 respectively. From 2016-2017 DHS saw a 0.5% dip, MK was flat (up .3%) and EPCOT was up 4.17%. Going back to the Everest addition it boosted the attendance of the entire resort and then the 2008 recession happened.
2. MK has had largely steady attendance increases up to 2015 with the biggest jump being in 2012 when New Fantasyland opened. From 2015-2020 it has remained relatively flat going up and down each year.
3. There is no TEA data for Anaheim. They opened the land without Rise of the Resistance. A ride, which while problematic is a monumental achievement and absolutely a driver of attendance. Until we have meaningful attendance data on a Star Wars Land that includes that ride, the results are incomplete.

If you're taking a 100 question test and the teacher decides to grade the test after you answer the first 60 questions, you're going to fail.

 

[hopemax]

Star Wars Land was opened in full for less than a month of meaningful data that showed up on a TEA report. I would guess that DHS moved to the #2 park in Florida, that is not insignificant.

Look at the DAK additions over the last 15 years. They have resulted in increased attendance at that park that has been sustained. The same is true of the Harry Potter additions over at Universal.

Really, the only park that has failed to see attendance improvements other than marginal year over year improvements has been EPCOT, the park that has yet to see a true addition (and not a replacement) since 1989 if I'm not mistaken. Sure, you could make the case that Soarin' was a substantial addition relative to what it replaced but that's still one "addition" in 32 years. Ratatouille is the first true addition in that park in quite some time.

The answer we don't know is what did the Harry Potter additions at Universal do to WDW's attendance? I have a feeling that part of MK's recent woes are due to the boy wizard. "Let's go to WWoHP!" "Do we want to still do Disney?" "Well, we can go for a few days." "Which parks?" "MK for sure, look at FP+ availability at the other parks and make a decision based on that."

And that's another issue. When people, not traveling for WDW specifically (convention, business trip, visit with Grandma, pre or post Cruise, etc) looked at FP+ availability, if they didn't like the remaining options at AK, DHS or Epcot, how many defaulted to MK just because of the longer list of options? That's why it's important to build out the other parks even if attendance increases there. That's the point... to have 4 15 million parks and not the MK sitting at 20+ million and the others at 10. "Day of" options also allows people to choose based on where they would want to be, not, "What I want is already sold out, guess I'm going to the MK again."

 

[Whippet Mom]

So $15 per ticket for unlimited? I was expecting worse.

No $15 for two rides that's it not unlimited

 

[Jrb1979]

All in all for my family of 8 for a 10 day trip is 3 k more for what we once had included. They don't garantee every ride avaiable either so people thinking this is just 15 bucks more go on anything you want won't get that 10 months a year. It may not be as bad as we thought but this is only good for a small parties that like to get up early and have their phones in their face while on vacation all day long. With 6 kids we left our phones in the room and got up at 11, that's over anyone wants value is forced to play a certain way. It no different than people feeling like they were forced to plan 60 days ahead and didnt like that.

I just dont see why we can't pay the 15 then go to the line we want when we want Instead of having to reserve the morning of then reserve again and again, the line will self regulate without the reservations especially seeing how the best attraction are a seperate paid for option anyhow. This is not spontaneous unless you call getting whats available even if you didnt want the attractions that are available at the time avaiable. The fine print straight out says attraction may not be available. I want haunted mansion then pirates or reverse but haunted mansion back to space mountain then back to pirates would be insane with a family like mine. This is why making 3 ahead of time is best OR simply not having reservation needed at all except for the major single pay rides.

We will soon see how it works, but no one can say it's only 15 a person its not a big deal because its another plus 24 for ROTR and possibly FOP,. It's more like 1500 to 3000 per trip, its substantial to most folks. For that amount it best work seamlessly and better than the old system not equal to it.

I am betting tweaking the first year. I just dont see that need to choose ride after ride one at a time in my phone.

I disagree. I don't see them going back to advanced booking or even booking your whole day out before parks open. I get it, it sucks for big families and those who never rope drop. I think the majority of people will pay for Genie+.

No $15 for two rides that's it not unlimited

It's $15 for what used to FP and doesn't include the top tier rides. Those rides will have fluctuating prices depending on the day.

 

[DCLcruiser]

I think @MisterPenguin may be inferring too much from the "beginning at 7 AM" line if that is what is being used to deduce that 1 PM window is going away. Is there other evidence that supports this?

There was also a hint from @marni1971 that boarding groups may be going away for Rise as well. Speaking logically, I would think it would be easier to sell people on an IAS if the ride had a 4 hour wait than if you have the opportunity of a boarding group.

I can't seem to find anything official, but I haven't seen the 1 PM BG mentioned. They only talk about 7 AM.

I would imagine Disney would want to remove the 1 PM BG, since people might hold off on buying the IAS knowing they have a chance to win the lotto at 1 PM to ride RotR. So, just offering 7 AM pushes people to start buying IAS in the morning.

 

[DCLcruiser]

No $15 for two rides that's it not unlimited

$15 gets you unlimited fast passes (selected one at a time) for Tier 2 rides.

IAS, which is an unknown price, is for up to 2 high-demand rides (like RotR, Rat, Space Mountain, etc).

 

[UNCgolf]

1. With the Pandora addition, attendance increase 15.27% and 10% in DAK from 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 respectively. From 2016-2017 DHS saw a 0.5% dip, MK was flat (up .3%) and EPCOT was up 4.17%. Going back to the Everest addition it boosted the attendance of the entire resort and then the 2008 recession happened.

The attendance increases aren't enough to offset the increase in capacity, though (unless the new ride had absolutely abysmal capacity). If a new ride offers an hourly capacity of 1200 (which isn't very high), and the park is open for 10 hours (which is a low number of hours), that's still 12,000 riders over the course of a day. Attendance isn't rising by 12,000 a day.

It's not quite that simple for various reasons, but in the grand scheme, there still ends up being more availability for guests overall throughout the day. Other attractions will have shorter lines as the new headliner attracts long ones.

Of course that doesn't happen if Disney only opens new rides as a VQ with boarding groups, though. Then it actually makes things worse until the VQ is eliminated because any increase in attendance ends up filtering throughout the whole park since they're able to do other things while "waiting" for the new attraction.

 

[Waters Back Side]

I disagree. I don't see them going back to advanced booking or even booking your whole day out before parks open. I get it, it sucks for big families and those who never rope drop. I think the majority of people will pay for Genie+.


It's $15 for what used to FP and doesn't include the top tier rides. Those rides will have fluctuating prices depending on the day.

This is not entirely true. When there was FP+ there were 5 rides now with Genie + that were considered top tier headliners. Someone IF availability worked in their favor could ride Frozen, Soarin and another lesser ride in the same Epcot day.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

1. With the Pandora addition, attendance increase 15.27% and 10% in DAK from 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 respectively. From 2016-2017 DHS saw a 0.5% dip, MK was flat (up .3%) and EPCOT was up 4.17%. Going back to the Everest addition it boosted the attendance of the entire resort and then the 2008 recession happened.
2. MK has had largely steady attendance increases up to 2015 with the biggest jump being in 2012 when New Fantasyland opened. From 2015-2020 it has remained relatively flat going up and down each year.
3. There is no TEA data for Anaheim. They opened the land without Rise of the Resistance. A ride, which while problematic is a monumental achievement and absolutely a driver of attendance. Until we have meaningful attendance data on a Star Wars Land that includes that ride, the results are incomplete.

If you're taking a 100 question test and the teacher decides to grade the test after you answer the first 60 questions, you're going to fail.

Here’s how you pass “the test”…

1. have crowds risen - barring recessions - on a fairly predictable ark for the last 40 or so years?
2. Those increases to parks when they open “new stuff”…are they shifting from other parks or generating “new” traffic? The reality is there is no way to glean if a “new thing” ever gets anyone to book. It is more likely that the normal uptick that happened regardless and shifting (park cannibalization occurred)
3. Remember what they did in Anaheim? They set themselves up to prove my point. Ripped out landscaping for “overflow capacity”…blocked out cast and annual passes…
Why? Because they wanted space for the “new” fans…ie Star Wars fans who were not Disneylanders to show…
They had about 10 months before the lockdown. How did it go?

attendance bumps are now 100% economy related.

you said Everest “boosted attendance property wide”??
…ummm….opened in 2005…that was the housing bubble…everyone was “gonna be rich”…

a medium rollercoaster doesn’t have that power…neither does fantasyland…neither does anything at studios. I could see maybe avatar getting some word of Mouth net gain. But at $5000 a week that’s not a great chance either. People are going…or they’re not. Internally…they’ve realized this since the Dak period.