Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[GoofGoof]

The inventory is less. Rides that were previously in inventory from Fastpass (FoP, Dwarfs, Rise) remain in their own pay solution. That's what he's saying, and he's correct.

Ahh, got it. I thought he was comparing to G+ rather than FP+ there and talking about the tiering. Certainly true that LLSP takes inventory out of circulation relative to the previous free systems. Which does suck.

At a minimum, they should reduce LLSP to only one ride at MK but I’d really like to see them eliminate LLSP entirely and make LLMP more robust for everyone. But they are addicted to that revenue.

Depends on when you compare to. LLSP takes 5 rides out of the line skip product but if you go back to before the end of August 2019 when Smugglers Run opened 6 new rides have opened so capacity is +1. Dec 2019 came RoTR and just before Covid shutdown MMRR. So between +1 and -1 rides. During Genie+ Rat, Tron and GoTG all opened. My only point is that meet and greets excluded, the number of attractions available really hasn’t changed. I don’t like the concept of LLSP and think it would be better to collapse in with LLMP.

Ride availability day of for this system compared to FP+ should be much better. The changes to DAS have supposedly resulted in less people using the lightning lanes. In addition the number of users is way lower. FP+ was free to anyone with a park ticket. If usage is close to Genie+ or slightly higher it will be somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of guests using it. That’s a lot more availability.

 

[GoofGoof]

If I’d been made to guess how ride-skipping options would attract certain demographics I would not have guessed older visitors. It makes sense though. What did older folks do before FastPass? I guess that’s been a while. Maybe people have become so accustomed to it at this point that removing it is just unrealistic.

Disney was a little more generous with guest assistance cards back in the day and they could be. It was a simpler time before social media and even widespread internet usage so there was probably a lot less abuse and people bragging about abuse.

 

[Splash4eva]

Simple: Opportunity versus Outcomes.

Previously everyone had the same Opportunity. But people had massively different Outcomes based on knowledge of the system.

Now, the Opportunity is different for different groups, but the Outcomes are going to be more similar just by brute force of everyone getting 3 picks at a minimum no matter how dumb or uniformed they are.

So reward the people who wanted to
Do zero extra work & penalize those willing to go the extra mile & put some effort into things…
Sounds familiar and seems to be the American way nowadays

 

[Dranth]

It's been explained multiple times but you seem to just not believe that people could have different experiences that you.

I agree that this is mostly worse for experienced and informed users... like those who post here. But we aren't the majority of guests that go to WDW. And the lines at Guest Services tell a different story about people being "happy" with G+.

A lot of folks were uniformed and didn't use G+ well. This new system of LLMP is an attempt to make it "dummy proof" and better for them by (1) giving them a floor of 3 selections they get by buying the product and (2) showing them what they get before they buy. So they know up front what they are getting.

Will this cut down on complaints and demands for refunds? I have no idea. But I understand the rationale from Disney's prospective.

It's not that I don't understand, it is that, in my opinion, you have it backward.

This is worse, harder to use and benefits the super fans FAR more than G+ did (just like FP+). That people keep saying otherwise just seems ridiculous.

Honest question, how on earth is just picking a new ride each time you use one or every two hours each day more difficult or less dummy proof than tiers with prebooking for an entire trip when inventory has already been eaten up before you even get a chance?

You seem to imply people getting their three will be enough while the rest will self-select by not purchasing it and maybe that ends up being true but to me, it looks short sighted. A lot of those people that don't buy it because the selections stink by the time they try are going to be mad and complain. People who realize they planned their whole trip around rides that didn't need a line skip are going to feel like they wasted money and be mad and complain. People who show up day of and can't get anything are going to be mad and complain. People who paid the same as everyone else but will now only get three because they aren't there at the crack of dawn are going to be mad and complain.

ETA: Anyone who thinks this will help with the complaints let me ask you this, if someone is mad because they spent $100 on a family of four for a day and misused G+, what is going to happen when that same family mess up a whole week and blows $700 before even seeing how the system works in person. FP+ got away with murder because it was FREE and the super fans loved it because we could abuse it.

 

[ConfettiCupcake]

Even the least educated guests who frequent this board are likely still above average in terms of WDW guests and their knowledge on strategic touring.

Are any of you in Facebook groups specifically that focus on line skips at WDW? It’s amazing that even in a group dedicated to that single topic, wildly bad advice is given and the things we consider common knowledge and easy to do are absolutely not. An example from today - somebody posted they could not book LLMP for Tiana at the time they desired and there were multiple responses that they should just wait in the standby line. During Genie+ life, it was common to see people return to the group with bad experiences that people on this thread have claimed are nearly impossible to do, yet these people who knew enough to have joined a dedicated Facebook group in advance of their trip were experiencing.

What one can experience and what they actually experience are not the same. I think Disney has much better data than we do, and their data is likely showing them that this new system leads to more revenue either directly by way of more purchases, or indirectly by way of guest satisfaction and increased likelihood of an on-site stay. I think they know the guest population as a whole is happier with what they can get out of this system than Genie+. That isn’t negated by a minority of guests they aren’t targeting preferring a different one.

 

[RSoxNo1]

See I would argue the opposite. I think having some semblance of a plan is much easier with families than having to do stuff on the fly. And times can be changed in the app if needed.

Do you have children? What is your typical traveling party? I'm regularly traveling with children, an autistic adult and grandparents and scheduling too many things is difficult.

Seems more like a feature than a bug to me. I don't think "flexibility" is the big issue with G+ or LLMP - I think it is dissatisfied guests not feeling like they are getting enough value and clogging up Guest Services. I firmly believe that they settled on 3 advanced bookings so they can be assured that everyone purchasing got three attractions each day. That's more important to Disney IMHO than flexibility or day of availability or superusers getting 7+ rides.

There isn't enough high end attraction inventory to justify 3 advanced bookings per day. That's why they have tiers. They knew this when the program was xPass and they haven't made enough strides to rectify this.

I legitimately don't understand what you are saying here. Outside of no longer having M&Gs as options, the inventory is the same. The tiering doesn't change that and it's certainly possible to get additional attractions from either tier once you redeem.

When Fastpass+ was a thing, Flight of Passage and Seven Dwarfs Mine Train were included as part of the Fastpass+ inventory. Those two attractions are no longer part of the Lightning Lane Multi Pass (LLMP) inventory. That means that available LLMP for two parks is less than it was during Fastpass+. EPCOT has added Ratatouille (but is currently without Test Track) and DHS has added Runaway Railway (technically it opened pre-COVID, but I'll count it as an addition).

If you look at the actual roster of attractions on Fastpass+ and LLMP there's a lot of false value there. I'm not in the camp of "revert everything to Standby Only", but LLMP and Fastpass+ should be on less attractions, not more. By locking in 3 in advance, your only option is to pad the numbers with attractions that don't need it. If you look at these things more cold heartedly, there are over 20 experiences across WDW that don't need daily LLMP.

Each of the following attractions either never had paper Fastpass, it was short lived, or only had it right before the transition to Fastpass+:

• Barnstormer
• Dumbo
• Haunted Mansion
• it's a small world
• Mickey's PhilharMagic
• Mad Tea Party
• Magic Carpets of Aladdin
• Monsters Inc Laugh Floor
• Pirates of the Caribbean
• Tomorrowland Speedway
• Little Mermaid
• Disney and Pixar Short Film Festival
• Figment
• Seas with Nemo and friends
• Spaceship Earth
• Turtle Talk
• Alien Swirling Saucers (opened after Paper Fastpass went away)
• Beauty and the Beast Live on Stage
• Disney Junior Play & Dance
• Frozen Sing-Along
• Indiana Jones Epic Stunt Spectacular
• Muppet*Vision 3D
• Feathered Friends in Flight / Flights of Wonder
• Festival of the Lion King
• Finding Nemo The Musical / Big Blue and Beyond
• It's Tough to be a Bug

I'll concede that some of these could stand to have Lightning Lanes on a nearly daily basis, but certainly not all of them. This was deception during Fastpass+, and the deception is even greater now that they're charging for it.

 

[JIMMYEDDIE]

I also hated G+ for the same reasons. The 7 AM scramble, the constant refreshing trying to find the next good LL at a time that works, and the completely disorganized touring schedule that often resulted from it are all reasons i hated it. The whole "anyone could get ALL the Tier 1 rides every time with G+" argument that's been thrown around is a completely unrealistic claim. I was familiar with G+ and used it multiple times on multiple trips (didn't always buy it because my wife and I hated it, but got it when traveling with others who don't get to visit as often as we do) and never once had that experience. SDD would sell out in seconds - or give us a return time near park closing when we had plans for another park at night despite it being the first ride we attempted to book. I booked SDD once and was fortunate to get it late on a day we planned to be at DHS in the evening - but again, that was a 7 AM booking already pushing the return time to shortly before closing. Being able to plan where we're going and when we'll be there is a good thing to me and alleviates the anxiety and stress of not knowing what will actually be available and when.

Having said that, I am able to acknowledge that my touring preferences do not reflect EVERYONE'S touring preferences and I understand that some prefer G+ for reasons that work for them - but when someone constantly repeats doomsday scenarios with no basis in fact simply to try to "win" a discussion based on opinions, then it's hard to not describe it in the term that others have used, especially when using those doomsday worst-case hypothetical scenarios to "answer" another poster's question about what actual LLMP users have experienced so far.

That was not unrealistic. It was not only 100% possible but very likely.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Ahh, got it. I thought he was comparing to G+ rather than FP+ there and talking about the tiering. Certainly true that LLSP takes inventory out of circulation relative to the previous free systems. Which does suck.

At a minimum, they should reduce LLSP to only one ride at MK but I’d really like to see them eliminate LLSP entirely and make LLMP more robust for everyone. But they are addicted to that revenue.

We can certainly agree on this.

Mine Train needs to be added to the inventory for MK. Perhaps it will be when Thunder Mountain closes.

 

[JIMMYEDDIE]

Is the being able to select another once you use 1 and holding onto 3 all day making it harder to find attractions opened in the afternoon/evening? That seems like a big change from FP+.

100%

 

[Saskdw]

It's not that I don't understand, it is that, in my opinion, you have it backward.

This is worse, harder to use and benefits the super fans FAR more than G+ did (just like FP+). That people keep saying otherwise just seems ridiculous.

Honest question, how on earth is just picking a new ride each time you use one or every two hours each day more difficult or less dummy proof than tiers with prebooking for an entire trip when inventory has already been eaten up before you even get a chance?

You seem to imply people getting their three will be enough while the rest will self-select by not purchasing it and maybe that ends up being true but to me, it looks short sighted. A lot of those people that don't buy it because the selections stink by the time they try are going to be mad and complain. People who realize they planned their whole trip around rides that didn't need a line skip are going to feel like they wasted money and be mad and complain. People who show up day of and can't get anything are going to be mad and complain. People who paid the same as everyone else but will now only get three because they aren't there at the crack of dawn are going to be mad and complain.

ETA: Anyone who thinks this will help with the complaints let me ask you this, if someone is mad because they spent $100 on a family of four for a day and misused G+, what is going to happen when that same family mess up a whole week and blows $700 before even seeing how the system works in person. FP+ got away with murder because it was FREE and the super fans loved it because we could abuse it.

IMO Disney thinks 3 IS enough for a lot of people and even more people will be happy with 4 or 5.

That is really all this system is designed for. Line skip for a handful of rides in a day. It's not designed to be used for ALL the rides in one day. Disney doesn't care that Jimmy Bob Eddie can't use it to ride 20 rides everyday. It's also only designed to be used by a certain % of the guests, not everyone. I have no idea what that % is and I doubt Disney will ever tell us.

The family you are describing would know what 3 rides they have booked before they pay so if they are disappointed they don't pay for it.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Here’s something I learned today that might preclude this. I’m not sure if this is a change, or if I’ve just never read about this rule.

A friend of mine is there today. When selecting his LLs last week, he couldn’t find more than one tier 2 ride at DHS that his group wanted. So he chose Muppets at 9am, figuring it would expire while he was rope dropping other things, and then he could choose anything available. However, when it expired at 10am, he could only select other tier 2 rides. His group showed as ineligible for a tier 1. He even waited until 10:15, just to see if the grace period affected this. He was still unable to select another tier 1 at 10:15.

He asked at a blue tent and was told to unlock the tier limitations, he couldn’t simply cancel, modify, or *let expire* his first LL. He had to tap in to at least that first LL to be able select another Tier 1.

Again, not sure if this is new, or I’ve just missed it, but this would seemingly preclude getting an early LL at AK to save $ on MK LLs.

For a week one "glitch" this doesn't surprise me at all. Now, the fact that this infrastructure has existed in various forms for quite some time at this point is irrelevant.

 

[RSoxNo1]

They should allow the first pre book only, get rid of the tiers and put the 120 min rule and stacking back in place. Satifies almost everyone. Up charge deluxe resort only guests to book a second tier 1 or 2 tier 2

I think if you look at the tier 1 attractions and DAK, you wouldn't be losing much if you were only allowed 1 advanced booking. I understand and appreciate the need for a guarantee, but there are very few 3 attraction combinations that truly justify having 3 advanced bookings.

1 advanced booking + 1 additional booking upon entering the park is more than sufficient. It would eliminate tiers and give guests 2 rolling LLs instead of 3. You could probably also eliminate the 120 min rule by doing this.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Your points are based on speculation of the worst case scenario and are not backed by any real world experiences.

90% of the on the ground reviews so far have been positive. You are just forwarding your own agenda.

You hate it. It doesn't work for you. Your opinion has been noted about 100 times.

I'd like to see the source of your info.

 

[ConfettiCupcake]

IMO Disney thinks 3 IS enough for a lot of people and even more people will be happy with 4 or 5.

That is really all this system is designed for. Line skip for a handful of rides in a day. It's not designed to be used for ALL the rides in one day. Disney doesn't care that Jimmy Bob Eddie can't use it to ride 20 rides everyday. It's also only designed to be used by a certain % of the guests, not everyone. I have no idea what that % is and I doubt Disney will ever tell us.

The family you are describing would know what 3 rides they have booked before they pay so if they are disappointed they don't pay for it.

Agreed and I will take it even further than the extremely high numbers people quote as getting with Genie+ (10-15 or more) likely mean that because you cannot use it on repeats, LLs were being used on attractions where they were barely necessary and that’s why they could get so many and immediate entry as well. Even with hopping, in my experience that would have been very hard to line up unless some were of pretty low value. I think if you break it down, all but the most ride focused and flexible groups could not and were not getting much more than that 5 or 6 LL of value .

At all but the busiest times of year without the ability to repeat, these parks don’t have 10, 15, whatever attractions that actually climb high enough to be unpleasant without a LL. Especially when you remove LLSP from the picture.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Simple: Opportunity versus Outcomes.

Previously everyone had the same Opportunity. But people had massively different Outcomes based on knowledge of the system.

Now, the Opportunity is different for different groups, but the Outcomes are going to be more similar just by brute force of everyone getting 3 picks at a minimum no matter how dumb or uniformed they are.

I don't believe this was the case with Fastpass+, this futher fuels the deception I was talking about. You're going to get a lot of people that get "value" by having Lightning Lanes for stuff that doesn't need it. Knowledge of the system gives everyone on this forum a distinct advantage over the average guest.

We would login and get Slinky Dog Dash, Toy Story Mania and Tower of Terror. Does the guest that gets Smugglers Run, Beauty and the Beast and Muppet*Vision get the same value?

 

[JIMMYEDDIE]

IMO Disney thinks 3 IS enough for a lot of people and even more people will be happy with 4 or 5.

That is really all this system is designed for. Line skip for a handful of rides in a day. It's not designed to be used for ALL the rides in one day. Disney doesn't care that Jimmy Bob Eddie can't use it to ride 20 rides everyday. It's also only designed to be used by a certain % of the guests, not everyone. I have no idea what that % is and I doubt Disney will ever tell us.

The family you are describing would know what 3 rides they have booked before they pay so if they are disappointed they don't pay for it.

It's jimmyeddie, my son's names. No bob. Get it right.

 

[ConfettiCupcake]

I think if you look at the tier 1 attractions and DAK, you wouldn't be losing much if you were only allowed 1 advanced booking. I understand and appreciate the need for a guarantee, but there are very few 3 attraction combinations that truly justify having 3 advanced bookings.

1 advanced booking + 1 additional booking upon entering the park is more than sufficient. It would eliminate tiers and give guests 2 rolling LLs instead of 3. You could probably also eliminate the 120 min rule by doing this.

I think 3 is their magic number as it is on the high end of what they would tell people to expect with Genie+. I think they must have some sort of data that points to the majority being satisfied with that magic 3, with the ‘proof’ being the way the purchase is not required to happen before the guest is satisfied with their pre booked 3.

I don’t think they overlooked that they could have tweaked Genie+ for prebooking, rather than moving to what is for the most part paid FP+. I think it’s more likely a system like that wouldn’t have accomplished what they want it to.

 

[JIMMYEDDIE]

I think 3 is their magic number as it is on the high end of what they would tell people to expect with Genie+. I think they must have some sort of data that points to the majority being satisfied with that magic 3, with the ‘proof’ being the way the purchase is not required to happen before the guest is satisfied with their pre booked 3.

I don’t think they overlooked that they could have tweaked Genie+ for prebooking, rather than moving to what is for the most part paid FP+. I think it’s more likely a system like that wouldn’t have accomplished what they want it to.

3 rides for $39pp is terrible. Especially when it's only one tier 1.

There's zero value in that and it's borderline insulting.

 

[JIMMYEDDIE]

I think if you look at the tier 1 attractions and DAK, you wouldn't be losing much if you were only allowed 1 advanced booking. I understand and appreciate the need for a guarantee, but there are very few 3 attraction combinations that truly justify having 3 advanced bookings.

1 advanced booking + 1 additional booking upon entering the park is more than sufficient. It would eliminate tiers and give guests 2 rolling LLs instead of 3. You could probably also eliminate the 120 min rule by doing this.

I like the 120 min rule/stacking ability but this scenario is a hell of a lot better than what this new system brings to the table.

Tiering and 3 advanced selections destroy it.

 

[ConfettiCupcake]

3 rides for $39pp is terrible. Especially when it's only one tier 1.

There's zero value in that.

$39 is the high end of the range. If it’s that high, it’s an incredibly busy day. Some Genie+ users got less than even 3 those days, proof being Disney’s own disclaimer they had to add on.

I agree with you, it’s terrible. $39 for Genie+ and LLMP are both a turn off for me. They have a desirable capacity issue and they’re attempting fix the bottom and average experiences by shifting things around. That in no way means any of it is all that great.