Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[doctornick]

It was not possible to only get one on anything but the busiest of days, outside of user error, and that will be the same under this new one.

It was entirely possible for people who purchased later in the day or didn't understand the system and when they could book more. e.g. someone who got a late return for their first pick and didn't realize you could book another in 2 hours but rather thinking it had to be used first.

Now, do I think those people are dumb and uneducated? Yes. But did that occur and happen frequently? Also yes.

This system rectifies this by forcing anyone buying to get three picks. So it's literally impossible to buy it and only get 1 or 2.

 

[Saskdw]

Because the people who really benefit from those three pre-books are not people posting on here. It's folks who have no clue and only got one or two useful passes in a day under G+.

Outside of a preference for planning versus spontaneous, this system is almost certainly going to be worse for superusers (although we won't know the degree until it has been out for a bit and we have more "on the ground" info; early reports are that is isn't so different except for the people who liked to stack and arrive late). But I think that's the point from Disney's prospective in order to help get the more novice people to get a better experience.

Disney's system isn't designed to accommodate power users and it's highly unlikely they care about the complaints of power users.

 

[doctornick]

For genie? Not once ever did I not get 3 tier 1 rides in the 2 1/2 years I used it.

Not. Once. Ever.

The key word here is "I". You - or anyone well familiar with the system - are not a typical guest. You benefitted from other people who bought G+ being unfamiliar with it and using it suboptimally.

 

[Dranth]

It was entirely possible for people who purchased later in the day or didn't understand the system and when they could book more. e.g. someone who got a late return for their first pick and didn't realize you could book another in 2 hours but rather thinking it had to be used first.

Now, do I think those people are dumb and uneducated? Yes. But did that occur and happen frequently? Also yes.

This system rectifies this by forcing anyone buying to get three picks. So it's literally impossible to buy it and only get 1 or 2.

Yes, but the new system does not fix that. In fact, it makes it worse because now people are making terrible decisions that make the line skip they are paying for useless or very limited for their entire trip instead of day by day.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Which is a fair reason to not like it but in the past you said you had not been back from 2016 and listed G+ as one of the reasons (unless I am thinking of someone else, if so apologies).

ETA: I found it, you said you had not been since 2017 until after the pandemic which is different than not going at all and not liking the system.

Also, I am really puzzled why people like the 3 prebooks so much? I would much rather get more quality selections 90% of the time and more selections overall than three prebooks which is what this is becoming for those that don't get there early.

G+ took being able to tell time to easily get 3+ no matter how you tour and they could have fixed the 7am thing easily. This gives you three you may or may not want with no option for more unless you tour a specific way. It is a major downgrade overall as it specifically rewards one type of park goer while actively making it worse for everyone else.

I also hated G+ for the same reasons. The 7 AM scramble, the constant refreshing trying to find the next good LL at a time that works, and the completely disorganized touring schedule that often resulted from it are all reasons i hated it. The whole "anyone could get ALL the Tier 1 rides every time with G+" argument that's been thrown around is a completely unrealistic claim. I was familiar with G+ and used it multiple times on multiple trips (didn't always buy it because my wife and I hated it, but got it when traveling with others who don't get to visit as often as we do) and never once had that experience. SDD would sell out in seconds - or give us a return time near park closing when we had plans for another park at night despite it being the first ride we attempted to book. I booked SDD once and was fortunate to get it late on a day we planned to be at DHS in the evening - but again, that was a 7 AM booking already pushing the return time to shortly before closing. Being able to plan where we're going and when we'll be there is a good thing to me and alleviates the anxiety and stress of not knowing what will actually be available and when.

Having said that, I am able to acknowledge that my touring preferences do not reflect EVERYONE'S touring preferences and I understand that some prefer G+ for reasons that work for them - but when someone constantly repeats doomsday scenarios with no basis in fact simply to try to "win" a discussion based on opinions, then it's hard to not describe it in the term that others have used, especially when using those doomsday worst-case hypothetical scenarios to "answer" another poster's question about what actual LLMP users have experienced so far.

 

[Jrb1979]

Which is a fair reason to not like it but in the past you said you had not been back from 2016 and listed G+ as one of the reasons (unless I am thinking of someone else, if so apologies).

ETA: I found it, you said you had not been since 2017 until after the pandemic which is different than not going at all and not liking the system.

Also, I am really puzzled why people like the 3 prebooks so much? I would much rather get more quality selections 90% of the time and more selections overall than three prebooks which is what this is becoming for those that don't get there early.

G+ took being able to tell time to easily get 3+ no matter how you tour and they could have fixed the 7am thing easily. This gives you three you may or may not want with no option for more unless you tour a specific way. It is a major downgrade overall as it specifically rewards one type of park goer while actively making it worse for everyone else.

Most like the 3 prebooks so much is the majority are happy with those 3 for the day. From what many say is rides are secondary to their Disney vacation. For many Disney is not a place to ride rides all day. Food, resort wandering and atmosphere is more important.

It's also a generation thing too. For my family with wife and I in our 40's with a 4 year old, rides is all we want to do all day. That's would our daughter wants. She has no interest in staying at the resort or trying out different food.

 

[Purduevian]

Oh yes. This is the problem. Let's say you have a week vacation with 5 park days.

You are going to HS on Wednesday, the 4th day of ur trip. At the 7 day mark, you go to book ur 3 selections and SDD is not even available. Then ur next selection is RNR and the earliest return time for that is 5pm.

Problem is, you have Topolinos reservation at 5pm and were planning on being in the parks from 10-4. Now you can't get either of ur top tier 1 selections and the relatively unspoken of part here is that tower of terror is consensus top tier 2 ride and that sells out before some of the tier 1 rides so now you cannot get on any of ur top 3 selections.


This system is awful. People that don't think so just don't understand the nuances of it yet. Theres not one way this is better than genie and that's not debatable

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that it cost you an additional $195 for your family of 5 for you to get on millennium falcon, star tours and alien swirling saucers.

Correct. And this is with lower park attendance. Wait until it's busy.

Go look right now a week out. I'll guarantee you there are rides sold out completely

And this is with park crowd rankings 5/10. Wait until you get in the 8/10, 9/10 and 10/10. There will be nothing Avilable

7 day 8/5 out availability for some big hitters

Ride	Earliest return time at 7am today	Earliest return time now (~1:20pm)
SDD	6:10pm	6:30pm
Tiana	Sold out	Sold out
Remy	5:05pm	5:55pm
RnRC	10:05am	10:50am
ToT	10:00am	12:50pm

So outside of Tiana, I think you will be able to get everything you want at some point in the day for your tier 1 if you are a resort guest. If your #1 doesn't fit your plans, your #2 option is almost certainly available at whatever time you want.

Here’s something I learned today that might preclude this. I’m not sure if this is a change, or if I’ve just never read about this rule.

A friend of mine is there today. When selecting his LLs last week, he couldn’t find more than one tier 2 ride at DHS that his group wanted. So he chose Muppets at 9am, figuring it would expire while he was rope dropping other things, and then he could choose anything available. However, when it expired at 10am, he could only select other tier 2 rides. His group showed as ineligible for a tier 1. He even waited until 10:15, just to see if the grace period affected this. He was still unable to select another tier 1 at 10:15.

He asked at a blue tent and was told to unlock the tier limitations, he couldn’t simply cancel, modify, or *let expire* his first LL. He had to tap in to at least that first LL to be able select another Tier 1.

Again, not sure if this is new, or I’ve just missed it, but this would seemingly preclude getting an early LL at AK to save $ on MK LLs.

I also learned you can not book another attraction until your tap into a park. So yeah my "hack" idea is dead haha. I don't think it would be worth it to drag your family to AK for rope drop, tap into ITTBA, book MK tier 1s, then hop on the bus to MK (although if you were a blogger going for a challenge, I would 100% do this haha)

 

[GhostHost1000]

Is the being able to select another once you use 1 and holding onto 3 all day making it harder to find attractions opened in the afternoon/evening? That seems like a big change from FP+.

 

[Purduevian]

Is the being able to select another once you use 1 and holding onto 3 all day making it harder to find attractions opened in the afternoon/evening? That seems like a big change from FP+.

Adding FP+ into my chart. Again, this isn't actual numbers, just educated guess

If you think about it, the availability just shifted up.

How many LLs does the average user have booked	When did this happen on G+	When did this happen on FP+	When does this happen now?
0	6:59am	64 days out	21 days out
1	7:00am	Never	Never
2	~2hours after park open	Never	Never
3	~4 hours after park open	Park open	Park Open
4	~6 hours after park open	~4-5 hours after park open (users have used 3 FP)	~2-3 hours after park open? (users have only used 1 LL)
5	~8 hours after park open	~6-7 hours after park open? (users have used 4 FP)	~3-4 hours after park open? (users have used 2 LLs)
6	Probably never actually happened where they average guest was on their 6th LL	Probably never actually happened where they average guest was on their 6th FP	4-5 hours after park open? (users have used 3 LLs)

 

[Dranth]

I also hated G+ for the same reasons. The 7 AM scramble, the constant refreshing trying to find the next good LL at a time that works, and the completely disorganized touring schedule that often resulted from it are all reasons i hated it. The whole "anyone could get ALL the Tier 1 rides every time with G+" argument that's been thrown around is a completely unrealistic claim. I was familiar with G+ and used it multiple times on multiple trips (didn't always buy it because my wife and I hated it, but got it when traveling with others who don't get to visit as often as we do) and never once had that experience. SDD would sell out in seconds - or give us a return time near park closing when we had plans for another park at night despite it being the first ride we attempted to book. I booked SDD once and was fortunate to get it late on a day we planned to be at DHS in the evening - but again, that was a 7 AM booking already pushing the return time to shortly before closing. Being able to plan where we're going and when we'll be there is a good thing to me and alleviates the anxiety and stress of not knowing what will actually be available and when.

Having said that, I am able to acknowledge that my touring preferences do not reflect EVERYONE'S touring preferences and I understand that some prefer G+ for reasons that work for them - but when someone constantly repeats doomsday scenarios with no basis in fact simply to try to "win" a discussion based on opinions, then it's hard to not describe it in the term that others have used, especially when using those doomsday worst-case hypothetical scenarios to "answer" another poster's question about what actual LLMP users have experienced so far.

I just don't see how this new one changes much of that though which is where my confusion comes in. It looks like people are just more comfortable with it because it is FP+ part 2 instead of it providing any real benefit.

Look, it is the system we have so in that sense, yes, we should all move on and deal with what is in front of us but that doesn't change that it just made the trip experience worse for anyone who isn't in one of three very specific groups. The first being onsite, longer than 7 day stays. The second is what I would call "excessive planners" who need to have as much mapped out as possible. Finally, those that are just happy with 1 T1 and 2 T2.

Who knows, maybe those groups outnumber everyone else but it doesn't seem like it to me which would mean they just made it worse for guests who don't like to plan as much, are staying onsite for one week or less, are staying offsite, are day guests or locals (AP holders in particular). So, likely most of their visitors.

 

[doctornick]

Yes, but the new system does not fix that. In fact, it makes it worse because now people are making terrible decisions that make the line skip they are paying for useless or very limited for their entire trip instead of day by day.

The new system "fixes" it by giving them a floor of 3 selections. And if they think they are "useless or very limited" then they won't buy it. They will know upfront what they are at a minimum getting. This is drastically different from G+ where people would buy it and then end up not enough as much or what they wanted after the fact.

 

[JIMMYEDDIE]

The key word here is "I". You - or anyone well familiar with the system - are not a typical guest. You benefitted from other people who bought G+ being unfamiliar with it and using it suboptimally.

All you needed to know was you could book every 2 hours. Thats not that hard

 

[Dranth]

The new system "fixes" it by giving them a floor of 3 selections. And if they think they are "useless of very limited" then they won't buy it. They will know upfront what they are at a minimum getting.

Great and by allowing three at once they just GARENTEED that less people will be able to get the rides they want, when they want them.

At 7 days out SDD is already pushed out to the evening by the MINORITY of guests who stay longer than a week and Tiana is already gone. Explain to me how that is better for anyone who previously had a chance at those without having to tack on extra days or pay grossly inflated room prices?

You know what never happened with G+? I was never locked out of a line skip before I even left my house.

 

[-vickimouse-]

11-11:15 check... what's the best LLs I can get at each park with 5 refreshes:
MK: 6:20 BTMRR, 3:50 Buzz, 8:00pm HM, 6:50 Jungle Cruise, 5:30 Pooh, 11:25 Pirates, 11:15 Space, Tiana (N/A)
EPCOT (Frozen and Remy both down right now): Frozen (N/A), MS (N/A), Remy (N/A), Soarin 1:15, SSE 4:15
DHS: MMRR (N/A), MFSR 1:55, RNRC 7:05, SDD (N/A), TSMM (N/A), ToT N/A)
AK: Dinosaur 11:50, EE 11:30, Kali 4:20, Safari 12:05, Navi 2:50

EPCOT and DHS are rough on 5 refreshes.

Have to ask: are you checking for a party of one? Or a party of 4, which would probably be the average. These times do not mean much if you are only checking for one person. I'm hoping you are checking for a party of 4!!


Also, the "you can check ahead and if you are not happy with your selection choices, you do not have to purchase" is correct, but boy will I be unhappy if I'm there for a trip with my family at a resort that we booked out long ahead to enjoy the theme parks and our choice is do not purchase and wait in long lines all day or take the leftover spots that are not the times and rides you really want. Also throwing in that I dislike having to pick the park I plan to be at a week ahead. I enjoyed Genie+ for the ability to pick a park the morning I wanted to go to theme park.

Anyway, I am watching to see how this all shakes out.

 

[Purduevian]

Have to ask: are you checking for a party of one? Or a party of 4, which would probably be the average. These times do not mean much if you are only checking for one person. I'm hoping you are checking for a party of 4!!

Availability is the same for 1-20 people under this system. There is no way to distinguish searching for 1 or 4 people. This is a pro of LLMP vs FP+

 

[doctornick]

I just don't see how this new one changes much of that though which is where my confusion comes in. It looks like people are just more comfortable with it because it is FP+ part 2 instead of it providing any real benefit.

It's been explained multiple times but you seem to just not believe that people could have different experiences that you.

I agree that this is mostly worse for experienced and informed users... like those who post here. But we aren't the majority of guests that go to WDW. And the lines at Guest Services tell a different story about people being "happy" with G+.

A lot of folks were uniformed and didn't use G+ well. This new system of LLMP is an attempt to make it "dummy proof" and better for them by (1) giving them a floor of 3 selections they get by buying the product and (2) showing them what they get before they buy. So they know up front what they are getting.

Will this cut down on complaints and demands for refunds? I have no idea. But I understand the rationale from Disney's prospective.

 

[doctornick]

All you needed to know was you could book every 2 hours. Thats not that hard

People are uniformed idiots.

 

[doctornick]

Great and by allowing three at once they just GARENTEED that less people will be able to get the rides they want, when they want them.

At 7 days out SDD is already pushed out to the evening by the MINORITY of guests who stay longer than a week and Tiana is already gone. Explain to me how that is better for anyone who previously had a chance at those without having to tack on extra days or pay grossly inflated room prices?

You know what never happened with G+? I was never locked out of a line skip before I even left my house.

Simple: Opportunity versus Outcomes.

Previously everyone had the same Opportunity. But people had massively different Outcomes based on knowledge of the system.

Now, the Opportunity is different for different groups, but the Outcomes are going to be more similar just by brute force of everyone getting 3 picks at a minimum no matter how dumb or uniformed they are.

 

[GoofGoof]

The inventory is less. Rides that were previously in inventory from Fastpass (FoP, Dwarfs, Rise) remain in their own pay solution. That's what he's saying, and he's correct.

Ahh, got it. I thought he was comparing to G+ rather than FP+ there and talking about the tiering. Certainly true that LLSP takes inventory out of circulation relative to the previous free systems. Which does suck.

At a minimum, they should reduce LLSP to only one ride at MK but I’d really like to see them eliminate LLSP entirely and make LLMP more robust for everyone. But they are addicted to that revenue.

Depends on when you compare to. LLSP takes 5 rides out of the line skip product but if you go back to before the end of August 2019 when Smugglers Run opened 6 new rides have opened so capacity is +1. Dec 2019 came RoTR and just before Covid shutdown MMRR. So between +1 and -1 rides. During Genie+ Rat, Tron and GoTG all opened. My only point is that meet and greets excluded, the number of attractions available really hasn’t changed. I don’t like the concept of LLSP and think it would be better to collapse in with LLMP.

Ride availability day of for this system compared to FP+ should be much better. The changes to DAS have supposedly resulted in less people using the lightning lanes. In addition the number of users is way lower. FP+ was free to anyone with a park ticket. If usage is close to Genie+ or slightly higher it will be somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of guests using it. That’s a lot more availability.

 

[GoofGoof]

If I’d been made to guess how ride-skipping options would attract certain demographics I would not have guessed older visitors. It makes sense though. What did older folks do before FastPass? I guess that’s been a while. Maybe people have become so accustomed to it at this point that removing it is just unrealistic.

Disney was a little more generous with guest assistance cards back in the day and they could be. It was a simpler time before social media and even widespread internet usage so there was probably a lot less abuse and people bragging about abuse.