Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[CaptainAmerica]

You’re not paying attention there…theres been no pricing set for rides…therefore it’s variable

Variable per ride and per day, not variable WITHIN the day.

 

[SamusAranX]

They haven't added capacity. There is less hourly capacity now than there was 20-30 years ago.

Yep. Many of those “new” rides have been redresses or replacements of existing attractions, net overall capacity did not increase

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Yep. Many of those “new” rides have been redresses or replacements of existing attractions, no net overall capacity did not increase

As I've said elsewhere, capacity is irrelevant if the rides suck and the boats go out empty.

Guardians will have a fraction of the capacity of Energy, and it'll still serve more guests because Energy didn't fill.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Variable per ride and per day, not variable WITHIN the day.

So the day/week before? What does that change?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

So the day/week before? What does that change?

From my perspective? Nothing. This digression began with a poster who was objecting to the idea of surge pricing, which she defined as real-time fluctuations throughout the day.

 

[jpinkc]

we haven't seen or heard from him I think hes in hiding, because I dont think there are too many people happy right now with Disney. The ceo dictator needs to go for one thing.

Oh No he posted a 15 minute video putting the Sunshine Pump to Genie. Trying to explain how great it was to have to pay more for Genie+

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

As I've said elsewhere, capacity is irrelevant if the rides suck and the boats go out empty.

Guardians will have a fraction of the capacity of Energy, and it'll still serve more guests because Energy didn't fill.

You’re not correct here. Part of capacity is also moving people on the paths to different parks of the park in sequence…crowd flow…

more ride availability helps balance even if every boat isn’t filled. Better if they were -
Of course

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

From my perspective? Nothing. This digression began with a poster who was objecting to the idea of surge pricing, which she defined as real-time fluctuations throughout the day.

Well…let’s just table that idea…they would do it if it made more and they can pull it off

 

[el_super]

no, the value in building the Little Mermaid is to improve people’s enjoyment of the parks, giving them more to do (and more options) and making it more likely that they won’t be as upset if they don’t ride Space or even if they have a long wait for it. It improves the value perception for the parks. Then people don’t feel as nickeled and dimes when paying for the tickets and Genie+

Yeah... I agree. I don't want this to sound like I am against adding more attractions because that's not the case.

The way I see it though, they have been adding attractions for decades, and the complaints of long lines are also decades old. It's a never ending cycle.

You're looking at the parks now and saying it didn't help, without understanding what the parks would look like if none of those rides existed. The problem is that they haven't added enough capacity compared to attendance increases, not that adding capacity at all is pointless.

Adding attractions isn't pointless, it's just solving for a different problem. The problem in thinking that additional capacity would decrease wait times, is thinking that attendance would be static. You seem to be suggesting that the attendance is almost an external force that rises and falls like the tide... and that they needed to build more capacity to manage it, but that's not really true either. The two are linked together. More attractions = more attendance. It's just as easy in this case to argue that the attendance at MK went up because of the additions of Mine Train and Mermaid and negated whatever capacity gains were to be had.

People were complaining the lines were too long at Disneyland in 1956, and Disney spent money to add new attractions. The lines there are still too long to this day.

Headliners are going to get long lines regardless, but that's not the point.

It's *kinda* the point in a thread about Fastpass Genie+. These queue management solutions are being put in place to manage the queues at the rides with the longest lines. The highest demand attractions. How many attractions at MK are NOT on the Genie+ list that will still be available with Standby and a minimal wait time?

It doesn't make sense to build more attraction capacity if you have capacity that is going unused or underutilized, with the intent of trying to make sure that capacity also goes underutilized. Maybe you can get away with building two or three more mermaid style attractions at MK, and you give people more options, but are they really going to feel better about being turned away from Haunted Mansion, Jungle Cruise or Big Thunder?

The point is offering other things for people to do that don't have such long lines, so that they aren't spending the entire day in long lines.

I mean... you still have the Swiss Family Treehouse over there right?

 

[UNCgolf]

Adding attractions isn't pointless, it's just solving for a different problem. The problem in thinking that additional capacity would decrease wait times, is thinking that attendance would be static. You seem to be suggesting that the attendance is almost an external force that rises and falls like the tide... and that they needed to build more capacity to manage it, but that's not really true either. The two are linked together. More attractions = more attendance. It's just as easy in this case to argue that the attendance at MK went up because of the additions of Mine Train and Mermaid and negated whatever capacity gains were to be had.

I never suggested adding attractions doesn't increase attendance at all, but it doesn't increase attendance enough to offset the increase in capacity. It's faulty to think adding a major new E-ticket would increase attendance so much as to outweigh the addition of the ride, especially over the long-term (it's possible, although unlikely, that it could cause a problem in the first few months after opening).

The new E-ticket would get very long lines, but lines in the rest of the park would go down. If it only had a 1000 per hour capacity, that would still be 10,000 riders in a day (with relatively short park hours). It's not going to draw an additional 10,000 people to the park every day, at least beyond the initial opening period (and I'm not sure it would draw that many even then).

I don't think it is easy to make that Mine Train/Mermaid argument, especially since we can look at attendance numbers and see that the Magic Kingdom hasn't experienced a 20,000+ per day attendance increase.

Of course it's a bit more complicated than that, but the numbers work as a simple example.

 

[el_super]

Oh... I forgot they added that extra theater to Soarin, so that was another addition that helped. Maybe?

Maybe the argument isn't new attractions but just building duplicates of the existing attractions. Maybe build an exact duplicate of Space Mountain? Just don't build it right next to the old one.

 

[wdwrcsws]

Oh man, I wonder if we will be the guinea pigs!!! We arrive the 20th...

And we are the 30th. We had poor luck with the app and room entry six months ago. My wife was locked out of the room six times in three days. I hope this thing actually works and does not boog down the app completely.

 

[disneygeek90]

Oh... I forgot they added that extra theater to Soarin, so that was another addition that helped. Maybe?

Maybe the argument isn't new attractions but just building duplicates of the existing attractions. Maybe build an exact duplicate of Space Mountain? Just don't build it right next to the old one.

To be fair, they have added capacity to existing rides. Soarin, Dumbo and TSMM all had additions. The problem is it still isn't enough because at the same time they were shuttering other attractions while putting less, lower capacity, and at other times absolutely nothing in it's place. Not to mention the shows and entertainment that has still not returned.

There's a vacant Stitch building. A train that hasn't operated in years. A huge wasted space in Star Wars Launch Bay. There's a lot they could add to raise capacity that wouldn't be a headliner and they just... don't.

 

[flynnibus]

I've ridden Rise of the Resistance four times on two trips. It wasn't particularly difficult. I think a lot of the consternation comes from boomers not using their phones properly.

Doesn't change the fact that when you put 10k plus requests in a 10 second window... there is no 'orderly queue' based on human actions. You do what you can, but it's ultimately out of your control.

 

[el_super]

You're also ignoring basics like 'if you are 25% behind, and add 20%... you're still 5% behind, not 20% ahead'.

25% of what? There has never been a time when the attraction capacity was at a level that the parks weren't crowded. Never.

Fastpass happened because people in the 1990s were complaining the lines were too long.

 

[Rickcat96]

We have not seen a peep out of Disney since this announcement, probably scrambling to come up with something to say.
They will backtrack this based on the negative feedback, which is more than I've seen for a long time. What they do is the question, Possibly reducing the price (especially for what has not been made public)

What they wont do- is eliminate or put it on hold-In true Disney $ grabs-make the price small and insignificant, then hook everyone in and raise the price 20 time a year. Just y thought.

 

[UNCgolf]

25% of what? There has never been a time when the attraction capacity was at a level that the parks weren't crowded. Never.

Fastpass happened because people in the 1990s were complaining the lines were too long.

But in the 90s, there were a ton of really good rides with short waits because the capacity was so much higher compared to attendance. I barely had to wait at all in EPCOT in 1995, and Haunted Mansion (just as one example) used to have 15 minute waits (or less).

It's much worse now than it used to be. Instead of just having long lines at a few headliners, there are long lines all over the place. And even the long lines at headliners were relative -- they were generally shorter than the lines rides get today.

That's due to a large increase in attendance and a lack of corresponding increase in capacity.

ETA: I know @lentesta posted here once that they had data going back to 2001 where Space Mountain had a max wait time of 120 minutes on a busy day. Roughly 20 years later, it had a max wait time of 240 minutes on a busy day.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Doesn't change the fact that when you put 10k plus requests in a 10 second window... there is no 'orderly queue' based on human actions. You do what you can, but it's ultimately out of your control.

With absolutely no data to back it up, I object to the idea that it's 10k requests in a 10 second window.

 

[Serverfarm]

Reading some of the comments here, I 'd say look at these surge pricing changes from a non-logistics way, this was expected as business folks run this company now:
I see cookie cutter operations across the board:

1. pay a subscription to get "in" (streaming D+ vs normal park pass)
2. bundle it for a higher cost, though it's the SAME thing (hulu,D+,espn = same service vs park hopper/multiday discount = same park)
3. pay extra for the trendy/new stuff (premium access movies vs genie+)....Of course, all done through "the app".
4. next up: pre-order selling/pre-reservations [of something!]

The experience is now the same through out all TWDC offerings from TV/movies/resorts, hence one can reduce duplication, aka staff, "raise prices", make more dollars. Wall St gets a simple story+synergy and execs go home with big bonuses. Can't you all see it? Looks like a no brainier!

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Lemme solve this:

adding attractions no longer increases attendance to a significant level. It did in the 80s and 90s…but largely hasn’t since.

“Star Wars land” did really nothing. Not just because Disney doesn’t get Star Wars and missed.

…what new attractions does is sustain the loyal base and create new parts to it. Which the Bobs abandoned…but one day Will be embraced again.

“this is the way”