Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Andrew25]

As much as we want Disney do more at WDW right now, I think Disney thinks its cheaper for Disney to do nothing and as the defending champ, play "rope a dope" and hope Universal punches themselves out.

Epic Universe will be a creative masterpiece, and finally convince all the nay-sayers that Universal Creative can create anything Imagineering can.

Universal Operations team however will find a way to bungle everything with how they run the parks and cause the potential success of Epic Universe (and the overall resort package) to be not as great. Universal at the moment can barely keep their restaurants open late, tend to have inconsistent hours, keep the parks closed early, and while there's been a decline in CM training... Universal's training remains poor.

Staffing for UOR is also a major concern for me as the resort still feels very understaffed at its current state. How they plan on supporting 3 additional resort hotels and a massive theme park is beyond me. I'm sure they'll throw every body into EU and the newer hotels... but what happens at the current parks? Currently their doing a lot of operational changes that require less staffing and/or reduced hours.

I hope I'm proven wrong, but my biggest fear with Epic Universe is how the overall resort responds to increased demand/interest, not what WDW does.

 

[Disstevefan1]

There are going to be third party services that offer to book these for international guests, I guarantee it.

100 percent! THEY HAVE TO!!!! They very much need and value their international guests more than their domestic guests as international guests tend to stay longer and spend more money.

 

[ConfettiCupcake]

The international block is really surprising. Other than the obvious impact on guests, it seems like this seriously devalues a Disney travel agent who lives outside the US.

 

[ToTBellHop]

If I’m Disney and I see that I need to discount the Yacht and Beach Club down into the $300s per night this summer to fill them, I’m thinking I can roll Lightning Lane Multi into deals next year and charge full price while at the same time making those staying off-site feel like second-class citizens so they want to book on-site stays in the future. You can even offer this to AP holders booking a resort stay instead of a percentage off. Everyone will want a piece of that Lightning Lane Multi Magic like

 

[GoofGoof]

On one hand, convenience increases demand. That’s just a psychological part of life. So the people who were turned off by 7AM, or waking up every day, or not knowing how many “good” rides you would actually get at a time that would work for your family, can potentially be buyers.

However, the real problem is that even with tiers, there are going to be pinch points. The most in demand rides, with the lowest capacities. Once those spots are allocated, things get messy real quick for anyone else.

Currently, at park opening, a person can’t simultaneously be holding a LL for Slinky Dog at 2pm, Tower of Terror at 10am and TSMM at 11am. Soon they will be able to, which will have an effect on other theoretical LL users. There is now one fewer spots for TOT and TSMM. Multiply that out 1000s of times. A LL user whose #1 attraction is NOT Slinky Dog, could be pretty confident they would get a decent return time in the current system, this makes it harder because people with 14 day, on-site stays might have already grabbed it before they even had a chance. The effect will to be to turn more attractions into the rapidly disappearing slots situation of Slinky Dog.

Basically, current: everyone not wanting the top demand attraction should have success with their Ride #1 selection. And because their return times were probably earlier than the people holding a LL for the top demand ride, they got first crack at Ride #2. Soon: people successfully achieving access to the top demand ride (by booking early) will also succeed in getting a good ride #2, and #3. Classic “the rich get richer.” But their newfound wealth came at someone else’s expense because ToT and TSMM weren’t dispatching empty seats.

Or an imperfect analogy, they are turning a snake fantasy sports draft where in a 10 team league, the person with the 10th pick also gets the 11th, and 1st gets the 20th. And turning it into a system where the person picking #1 overall (onsite 14 day trip person) is also first to pick 2 more players. If your the 10th pick (theoretical 3-day, or ‘day of’ selector) 30 players will be off the board before you can pick even one.

The key for Disney is how does this affect satisfaction scores. IMO, a small amount of people will be super happy because they got everything, more or less when they wanted it, while everyone else will unhappily be looking at a pile of mismatched puzzle pieces.

The people who stay on property and get the 7 day advantage will be the people who are most happy with this. So Disney chose to prioritize them over locals with APs, day visitors and people staying off site. Probably makes sense for them from a business prospective. Universal gives Express Pass to anyone staying at a deluxe resort. At least Disney extended the benefit to all levels of resorts. Doesn’t help those not staying at a Disney resort but imagine if the 7 day advance reservation was only for Disney deluxe resorts. People would riot.

 

[Trauma]

Reality check folks... Disney didn't just double or triple their attraction capacity.

So when they just offered up 3 LL reservation spots to people a week in advance.. and still expect people to make day of reservations. That means only one thing... they are going to STUFF the LL to the gils with people.

Remember - When EVERYONE is special - NO ONE is special.

This is just like the TSA precheck lines now... they can be longer than normal security!

Disney doesn't want to face customers upset that there are no reservations available to book - so they are incentivized to open up as much capacity as they can. RIP Standby waits... it was nice knowing you!

Obviously with this timing.. clearing out the fake-DAS load was essential to making this change viable. All those people wanting standby waits to drop? LOL - they are just gonna stuff the LLs with a different type of reservation now.

And Disney doesn't want to make a $1mil off 5,000 people... they want to make $5mil off 50,000 people. They want the highest attach rate they can get... so price it within reach, and sTUFF the LL to keep those reservation counts up.


Disney might as well get rid of standby lines before too long.. they just want you bouncing around from one reservation to another.

This change has made me more upset with the Parks leadership than any other in recent memory. FP+ was horrible.. and this is that with more baggage thrown in. Visiting Disney parks is never going to be like it was in the past.. instead you're going to have everyone trying to zip from reservation to reservation.. and upset that they get there and the lines are still long.

When you thought it never could get worse than ILL as a name - they come up with this monstrocity. I just can't even fathom what group of people are dreaming up these horrible systems. They must be people that just think they know customers but aren't real ones themselves. If I saw this come across my desk... I'd be firing the whole lot.


They would have been better off to just jack ticket prices up $40 and be done with it...

This shouldn’t really surprise you though.

Under Iger it’s never been about improving the guest experience.

I know people on these forums hand wave the problems away saying the parks are still full and making $$$.

To me the parks are a shell of their former selves.

The strategy is even weirder to me when DVC is a large part of what they are doing.
They are still building more.

How are they going to sell this DVC with basically no benefits and the park experience is lacking?

I don’t understand the plan.

 

[LittleBuford]

I miss the days when the biggest controversy were the attraction tiers for FP+

The controversy went much further than that. Many, and perhaps most, posters here absolutely hated FP+. Those of us with anything positive to say about the service constituted a distinct minority.

I guess it’s true that absence makes the heart grow fonder.

 

[tonythetigerasn]

What's interesting is that, even with a new name, this is fundamentally the same line-skipping product. A few things seem clear to me with this announcement and the recent history.

Disney was unhappy with their front-of-the-line service. They felt they could make more money from it. The move to different pricing by park was an attempt at that. They could only raise prices so high, though, because of dissatisfied customers. As long as they were facing tons of complaints about G+ and giving hundreds of refunds per day (that's just a guess), they couldn't raise prices.

The tour guide changes and DAS changes allow more G+ inventory and more reliably quick Lightning Lanes. And increasing inventory allows for pre-booking. Pre-booking will up satisfaction and reduce stress during people's trips, and customer satisfaction will go up since people can calibrate their expectations.

I would like to see a more premium line skipping option that prices most people out and just returns to standby as the default option. I think the whole park would run better and it would improve enjoyment of people's visits. But keeping ILL tells me Disney intends to keep this within a reasonable, mass purchased ticket add-on. They're not changing the fundamental model, just tweaking it so they can maybe charge $50-$60 per day during peak times.

 

[Disstevefan1]

The international block is really surprising. Other than the obvious impact on guests, it seems like this seriously devalues a Disney travel agent who lives outside the US.

They MUST and WILL fix this! THEY NEED INTERNATIONAL GUESTS!!!!

 

[ToTBellHop]

What's interesting is that, even with a new name, this is fundamentally the same line-skipping product. A few things seem clear to me with this announcement and the recent history.

Disney was unhappy with their front-of-the-line service. They felt they could make more money from it. The move to different pricing by park was an attempt at that. They could only raise prices so high, though, because of dissatisfied customers. As long as they were facing tons of complaints about G+ and giving hundreds of refunds per day (that's just a guess), they couldn't raise prices.

The tour guide changes and DAS changes allow more G+ inventory and more reliably quick Lightning Lanes. And increasing inventory allows for pre-booking. Pre-booking will up satisfaction and reduce stress during people's trips, and customer satisfaction will go up since people can calibrate their expectations.

I would like to see a more premium line skipping option that prices most people out and just returns to standby as the default option. I think the whole park would run better and it would improve enjoyment of people's visits. But keeping ILL tells me Disney intends to keep this within a reasonable, mass purchased ticket add-on. They're not changing the fundamental model, just tweaking it so they can maybe charge $50-$60 per day during peak times.

I think, psychologically, many will prefer paying for LL before leaving home in one lump sum instead of being reminded every morning or your vacation that you’re spending a lot. That’s why people love all-inclusives, cruises, dining plans, etc.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Well i said from day 1 that the only reason they wanted to “crack” down now on DAS was to generate more money and this basically all but proves it… im not gonna debate on the fact so many are getting denied now that legit need it. Thats for the other thread lol.

If I recall…nobody ever really disputed that as reason #1

It was more for me a reality that they just cannot handle even moderate levels of people in comfort - as we see day by day on the ground.

It’s a mix of bad operational “philosophies” that got them here.
The customers lose…same ole

 

[GoofGoof]

No, but you don't need a full park of them. Disney has an absurd number of power users already. G+ was the most "fair" system they have used since the parks were standby only. The only requirement was being able to wake up and even then you were okay if you didn't get in the app first thing. It still needed some tweaking, but this shifts the advantage further into power user territory. While that could be great for all of us that know what we are doing, it isn't going to work well for everyone else.

The fact that it is limited to only those who are willing to pay (which I think will be a TON of people) and that no rerides are allowed could keep it from turning into the same mess that was FP+ for non-power users but I still think they are making it more complicated than it needed to be.


We also go for a bit longer with less hours in the parks, a habit we picked up because we got sick of everyone with longer stays taking all the FP+ inventory before we could even make a selection. All they really needed was a simple tweak to G+ allowing you to pick your first ride and selecting the time a week out. That would solve the issue with waking up early during vacation and significantly less drain on available inventory before the park even opens.

I think we need to wait to see how all the moving parts pull together. If the changes to the disability system really opened as much lightning lane capacity as some people think then they may have solved one of the biggest problems FP+ had. Because this is a paid service and because you don’t pay until after you see what is available the demand will be largely tied to what capacity is available. If you bought multiple lightning lane with your park ticket then sales would probably be much higher but they would lose the benefit of true dynamic pricing. They would have to guess how much to charge well in advance. Under the system as laid out now how many non-resort guests people will buy in if the good attractions sell out 7 days in advance? Specifically for a park like AK where only a handful of rides get long lines.

 

[Disstevefan1]

I would like to see a more premium line skipping option that prices most people out

The Disney tour guide service at $900 an hour is not premium enough?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

If I’m Disney and I see that I need to discount the Yacht and Beach Club down into the $300s per night this summer to fill them, I’m thinking I can roll Lightning Lane Multi into deals next year and charge full price while at the same time making those staying off-site feel like second-class citizens so they want to book on-site stays in the future. You can even offer this to AP holders booking a resort stay instead of a percentage off. Everyone will want a piece of that Lightning Lane Multi Magic like
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The problem is this years tactic isn’t working…so why would next years?

Here’s the deal…they just pushed past the price ceilings. Which is what a child does…keep pushing it until you break it. You have to adjust to the hand youre dealt and Bob can’t.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

What's interesting is that, even with a new name, this is fundamentally the same line-skipping product. A few things seem clear to me with this announcement and the recent history.

Disney was unhappy with their front-of-the-line service. They felt they could make more money from it. The move to different pricing by park was an attempt at that. They could only raise prices so high, though, because of dissatisfied customers. As long as they were facing tons of complaints about G+ and giving hundreds of refunds per day (that's just a guess), they couldn't raise prices.

The tour guide changes and DAS changes allow more G+ inventory and more reliably quick Lightning Lanes. And increasing inventory allows for pre-booking. Pre-booking will up satisfaction and reduce stress during people's trips, and customer satisfaction will go up since people can calibrate their expectations.

I would like to see a more premium line skipping option that prices most people out and just returns to standby as the default option. I think the whole park would run better and it would improve enjoyment of people's visits. But keeping ILL tells me Disney intends to keep this within a reasonable, mass purchased ticket add-on. They're not changing the fundamental model, just tweaking it so they can maybe charge $50-$60 per day during peak times.

What did you have for breakfast today, Josh?

Right…avacado toast and a kale smoothie…duh

 

[Jon81uk]

Where? What's the source?

If true it's a horrendous oversight for all international guests. I notice the FAQ on the UK version of the WDW site is pretty much a blank page at the moment, so wonder if there's some stuff to still be worked out.

I've got 16-17 months to go until I visit, they'll probably reinvent the whole system by then!

But the simple answer would be to sell the multipass LL as part of a UK ticket, not from within the app.

 

[Dranth]

Under the system as laid out now how many non-resort guests people will buy in if the good attractions sell out 7 days in advance?

This is one of my big concerns. I would guess people would not buy it once it reaches that point, the problem is, if there are no good attractions left once you are in the park, what you are going to select? The capacity is already gone.

I am sure they will have drops to combat this but I am also sure that people will figure out when those are and grab them immediately. The more I think about it, the more I believe not allowing rerides may be the only saving grace.

 

[GoofGoof]

The controversy went much further than that. Many, and perhaps most, posters here absolutely hated FP+. Those of us with anything positive to say about the service constituted a distinct minority.

I guess it’s true that absence makes the heart grow fonder.

I was in that small minority here that liked FP+ so I guess it’s no surprise that I don’t mind this change.

 

[Jon81uk]

I was in that small minority here that liked FP+ so I guess it’s no surprise that I don’t mind this change.

My preferred system was still MaxPass at DL, no 7am, no prebooking, just the same system as paper FP but on the app. The 7am thing is the worst of all systems though, I don't want to be up that early on holiday/vacation!

 

[DisneyDreamer08]

An interesting thought that a friend of mine brought up yesterday. She was saying they recently purchased Genie and it ended up down pouring the entire day. They cut their day short and the few rides they did go on, had short waits due to the weather. She felt like it was a waste of money but their fault for not checking the weather more closely. So what happens if you purchase 7+ days in advance and the weather turns day of? Imagine all the people asking for a refund. I’m sure it will be in the fine print but annoying for cast members to deal with nonetheless.