LA Times: Is Disney Paying Its Fair Share In Anaheim

Travel Junkie

Well-Known Member
Saying just raise the wages is something I never said so there is no need to try and put words in my mouth. Having a reasonable minimum wage combined with affordable housing benefits everyone including big business.

I wouldn't say California is over regulated. It's not smartly regulated in some instances. Overall the state is doing just fine. In many ways it's a victim of its own success. They do need to address cost of living as well as a few other things.

For all of the talk of overregulation killing business it seems as though the states that everyone complain about are the states where most of the biggest businesses and most innovative companies are located.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
Saying just raise the wages is something I never said so there is no need to try and put words in my mouth. Having a reasonable minimum wage combined with affordable housing benefits everyone including big business.

I wouldn't say California is over regulated. It's not smartly regulated in some instances. Overall the state is doing just fine. In many ways it's a victim of its own success. They do need to address cost of living as well as a few other things.

For all of the talk of overregulation killing business it seems as though the states that everyone complain about are the states where most of the biggest businesses and most innovative companies are located.

How do you get the ‘affordable housing’? Are you saying the State or City should be involved in that?
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Just fine.... I lol’d

The state that put municipal bankruptcy on the map...
The penal system is a wreck...
The land of mob rule amendments crippling the future...
The land where 10 digit budget shortfalls don’t even make the news anymore...
Top 5 highest taxed states...
Absurd regulation that runs businesses away...

Cali still is leader in people leaving the state

Cali has lots going for it... but it’s largely about hoping the pros are still enough for you to stay
 
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Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Getting back to Disneyland and the city of Anaheim. Let's look at history.

In the mid-1950's, Walt Disney and his partners decided a orange grove in Anaheim would be a great location to build a entertainment complex that would draw from the surrounding area. ERA Associates stated that Anaheim is the center of the Southland (and was proven right, with the true center ending up just a few miles away). So they approached the city asking for a zoning change to build on the land, and got it. (The plans for Disneyland actually started in 1951 with the formation of "Disneyland Inc.")

From the city's viewpoint, if the project failed, the land could easily be returned to farming. If it was successful, then the city would have to build some streets and other infrastructure, but the additional tax revenue and new businesses to operate alongside Disneyland would more than pay for the infrastructure. So the basic agreement was made, the city gave the green light, and the investors agreed and Disneyland was built, and opened for business on June 18th in 1955.

In the first decade, Disneyland proved a success within the first year, and the city grew as many businesses started to build nearby such as Hotels, Restaurants, shops, gas stations and other services that the guests arriving to visit the park demanded.

The city responded by building the roads needed, and enjoyed the increased tax revenues and jobs created. Also, folks now wanted to live in the area, as many worked in the resort area.

In the 1960's the city leaders decided they liked how the city was growing and wanted to take a more active role, instead of just being passive and collecting the new revenues. So they decided to build the Convention Center and Anaheim Arena across the street. They also decided to pursue sports teams, and ended up building Angel Stadium to host Baseball, Football, and later soccer games, plus concerts, motor sports, and other events like religious gatherings. So that pretty much set the tone of where the city wanted to focus its attention on. The city has continued to focus on it by building the facility currently known as the Honda Center, which currently hosts the main indoor sports, along with concerts and other large events. They also have built many other tourist related facilities, and either operate them, or lease them out for others to operate. This has created a very healthy and growing source of tax and other revenues. So now there are two main areas, next to each other, The Anaheim Resort Area, and the Platinum Triangle.

But Walt Disney wasn't so happy, at first he was ecstatic that Disneyland was not only a hit, but a big hit, but by 1958 he was so frustrated that all these other businesses were capitalizing on his success, plus government regulations were causing him problems he hired era again to find a new location where he could buy and control a lot more land and build a new version of Disneyland. The decision was made in 1963 in picking the Orlando area. Things finalized in 1967, when the Florida governor agreed to Walt Disney's request to form his own government entity, Reedy Creek to build and run the resort area, and WDW opened in 1971.

He also started working with the Oriental Land Company in 1961 for a potential park in Japan. The deal finally was completed in 1979 with Tokyo Disneyland opening in 1983.

In 1972, the Walt Disney Company decided to expand to Europe, by 1984 they identified possible locations and was ready to move forward. They shopped around, looking for the best overall package, similar to the Florida location. And that was a good location, but also lots of land, plus government deals to allow freedoms in operations and lower taxes and fees. Less than a year later, both France and Spain came out as the best offers. Land near Paris was the winner, in part due to the amount of potential guests within a 4 hour drive, and a 2 hour flight, similar to how the Anaheim and Florida locations were chosen. Euro Disney opened in 1992.

Disney started to look at the Southern California area in the 1980's as another option to expand in. 1987 had Disney buying the Wrather Corporation, which included the Disneyland Hotel (operated under license since it opened in 1956) and the Queen Mary.

This will lead to the major working agreement between Disney and the city of Anaheim in the 1990's, which I will discuss later in a new post. (Running late, and need to start doing other things...)
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
World's 6th 5th largest economy, multi billion dollar surplus. Home to some of the largest most innovative companies in the world. Business hates California.

Yeah, ask why the entire aircraft industry left...
Or why Auto companies largely only have 'design studios' there... Telsa manufacturing is in fremont because they got a bargin on the plant after the other companies gave up
The film studios are their own special economy. Try being a small or medium sized business and see if you get the same kind of treatment as the protected film industry.
Silicon Valley no longer has a monopoly on tech because of the costs of cali..
why Cali had to start incentive programs paying businesses to create jobs in cali.. to try to stop the trend of jobs leaving the state.

http://www.calbizjournal.com/whybusinessesleavecalifornia/
https://www.ocregister.com/2017/11/...ople-left-california-than-moved-here-in-2016/
https://www.pasadenastarnews.com/20...ifornia-this-report-claims-to-have-an-answer/

Talk to any small business owner... you know the types that can't afford to have huge armies of lawyers on retainer... they are the ones who live in fear of the lawsuits and are seeking to flee the higher costs of regulation. I know many that have moved across the border to NV purely to escape the Cali bureaucracy.
 

choco choco

Well-Known Member
Yeah, ask why the entire aircraft industry left...
Or why Auto companies largely only have 'design studios' there... Telsa manufacturing is in fremont because they got a bargin on the plant after the other companies gave up
The film studios are their own special economy. Try being a small or medium sized business and see if you get the same kind of treatment as the protected film industry.
Silicon Valley no longer has a monopoly on tech because of the costs of cali..
why Cali had to start incentive programs paying businesses to create jobs in cali.. to try to stop the trend of jobs leaving the state.

http://www.calbizjournal.com/whybusinessesleavecalifornia/
https://www.ocregister.com/2017/11/...ople-left-california-than-moved-here-in-2016/
https://www.pasadenastarnews.com/20...ifornia-this-report-claims-to-have-an-answer/

Talk to any small business owner... you know the types that can't afford to have huge armies of lawyers on retainer... they are the ones who live in fear of the lawsuits and are seeking to flee the higher costs of regulation. I know many that have moved across the border to NV purely to escape the Cali bureaucracy.

Flynn... http://www.sacbee.com/news/business/article195571634.html

First sentence: "Riding a wave of seasonal hiring and robust employment in nearly all major industry sectors, California’s unemployment rate plunged to a record low 4.3 percent in December."

Story dated January 19, 2018

Yeah, ask why the entire aircraft industry left...

Ok so I have close ties to this industry, having worked in California's aerospace industry for a long time, and I can tell you...it's currently booming. It just isn't the aircraft stuff of yore, it is these new space companies. There's a reason SpaceX chose here (it's the expertise in the area), and its sudden rise to prominence has boosted a lot of the traditional aerospace vendors. Desire for space down in the El Segundo area (the hub of So Cal's aerospace region) is at a premium (case in point: https://urbanize.la/post/boeing-expands-its-el-segundo-complex). The "entire aircraft industry" you speak of was because all the traditional aircraft companies consolidated, as did the defense companies, so the industry itself was getting smaller. Nobody really predicted the current space boom ten years ago, there was a lot of "woe is me" attitude at the time (personally, I thought it was a good thing defense companies were shrinking) but it certainly is making its way back in a big way.

Or why Auto companies largely only have 'design studios' there... Telsa manufacturing is in fremont because they got a bargin on the plant after the other companies gave up

So I'm confused about this statement, because Tesla is obviously the game-changer here, and it means something that they are California based. As is Lucid Motors (http://www.thedrive.com/sheetmetal/...cid-motors-moves-into-snazzy-new-headquarters) and half a dozen wannabe electric car companies (LeEco, yada yada). As is Ford's new self-driving unit (http://driving.ca/ford/auto-news/ne...ley-staff-dedicated-to-autonomous-car-testing), Hyundai's recently opened North American headquarters (https://www.ocregister.com/2013/06/07/hyundais-new-oc-headquarters-changes-citys-skyline/). I think the only two companies you are referring to are Nissan (which moved over ten years ago) and Toyota. But the "design studios" you speak of are not nothing, they are the most important thing. Design is central. Administration, advertising, upper management and their bureaucratic bloat, that can be done anywhere. The most important talent still concentrates itself in California, funnily enough (insider baseball, I've been told Toyota's R&D is moving to Michigan).

The film studios are their own special economy. Try being a small or medium sized business and see if you get the same kind of treatment as the protected film industry.

This doesn't make sense. The biggest growth in Hollywood (which is growing through the biggest building boom I've ever seen in my lifetime, i.e. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/20/b...nd-paramount-plan-bold-studio-expansions.html) is coming mainly from the newcomers, who don't actually specialize in film (Netflix, Hulu, Youtube, Amazon...everyone knows the names) and aren't yet protected because they weren't established enough to do so. Simply put, this industry is doing so well because television shows employ more people than feature films, which means there's not enough money to relocate shoots to accomodate such large staffs. Production has had to stay here, and as the number of shows has grown, so has the industry. There is a very valuable and sought after tax credit, but it in no way can cover every production inside the state, and yet many shows are still staying put.

But the most important sign that a city (by extension state) is doing well...the artists are moving here. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/22/arts/design/hammer-museum-los-angeles-philanthropy.html. It's the Richard Florida thesis: the most important signifier of a post-industrial city's economic potential and strength is its desirability to the "creative class" because they are the ones that drive innovation and critical thought. That's why having 'design studios' staying put is such a desirable thing.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Flynn... http://www.sacbee.com/news/business/article195571634.html

First sentence: "Riding a wave of seasonal hiring and robust employment in nearly all major industry sectors, California’s unemployment rate plunged to a record low 4.3 percent in December."

Story dated January 19, 2018



Ok so I have close ties to this industry, having worked in California's aerospace industry for a long time, and I can tell you...it's currently booming. It just isn't the aircraft stuff of yore, it is these new space companies. There's a reason SpaceX chose here (it's the expertise in the area), and its sudden rise to prominence has boosted a lot of the traditional aerospace vendors. Desire for space down in the El Segundo area (the hub of So Cal's aerospace region) is at a premium (case in point: https://urbanize.la/post/boeing-expands-its-el-segundo-complex). The "entire aircraft industry" you speak of was because all the traditional aircraft companies consolidated, as did the defense companies, so the industry itself was getting smaller. Nobody really predicted the current space boom ten years ago, there was a lot of "woe is me" attitude at the time (personally, I thought it was a good thing defense companies were shrinking) but it certainly is making its way back in a big way.



So I'm confused about this statement, because Tesla is obviously the game-changer here, and it means something that they are California based. As is Lucid Motors (http://www.thedrive.com/sheetmetal/...cid-motors-moves-into-snazzy-new-headquarters) and half a dozen wannabe electric car companies (LeEco, yada yada). As is Ford's new self-driving unit (http://driving.ca/ford/auto-news/ne...ley-staff-dedicated-to-autonomous-car-testing), Hyundai's recently opened North American headquarters (https://www.ocregister.com/2013/06/07/hyundais-new-oc-headquarters-changes-citys-skyline/). I think the only two companies you are referring to are Nissan (which moved over ten years ago) and Toyota. But the "design studios" you speak of are not nothing, they are the most important thing. Design is central. Administration, advertising, upper management and their bureaucratic bloat, that can be done anywhere. The most important talent still concentrates itself in California, funnily enough (insider baseball, I've been told Toyota's R&D is moving to Michigan).



This doesn't make sense. The biggest growth in Hollywood (which is growing through the biggest building boom I've ever seen in my lifetime, i.e. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/20/b...nd-paramount-plan-bold-studio-expansions.html) is coming mainly from the newcomers, who don't actually specialize in film (Netflix, Hulu, Youtube, Amazon...everyone knows the names) and aren't yet protected because they weren't established enough to do so. Simply put, this industry is doing so well because television shows employ more people than feature films, which means there's not enough money to relocate shoots to accomodate such large staffs. Production has had to stay here, and as the number of shows has grown, so has the industry. There is a very valuable and sought after tax credit, but it in no way can cover every production inside the state, and yet many shows are still staying put.

But the most important sign that a city (by extension state) is doing well...the artists are moving here. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/22/arts/design/hammer-museum-los-angeles-philanthropy.html. It's the Richard Florida thesis: the most important signifier of a post-industrial city's economic potential and strength is its desirability to the "creative class" because they are the ones that drive innovation and critical thought. That's why having 'design studios' staying put is such a desirable thing.

Short term stats (especially unemployment) are not great indicators of the topic at hand.

Spacex is basically tech

When I said film I meant all of Hollywood... verse things non studio related... like a gizmo company.

The rest of your points revolve around people/talent... who all still flood to Cali. The thing about “design studios” is they allow a company to have white collar work done... and do all the heavy lifting else where... where it’s more aventagous to do so. So a company can attract talent, but not operate the bulk of the business in those conditions. Now imagine you aren’t a company with hundreds of millions in assets that can afford to split operations for the most lucrative balances.

And that’s what I’m talking about...businesses... not individuals. So many have up and left because they can’t handle the absurdity. And like I said above... it hurts the smb more than the rich industries that can afford the overhead.

Manhattan is still a crown jewel for many... that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a great place to run a business.
 

Travel Junkie

Well-Known Member
Yeah, ask why the entire aircraft industry left...

They did? I could swear my nephew works for one. He must be lying.

I know several small business owners including my father who runs a civil engineering and land surveying business. He would know more than most about the so called "absurd California laws" as he deals with the state and does work for Caltrans on a regular basis. He's doing fine thank you very much.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
They did? I could swear my nephew works for one. He must be lying.

I know several small business owners including my father who runs a civil engineering and land surveying business. He would know more than most about the so called "absurd California laws" as he deals with the state and does work for Caltrans on a regular basis. He's doing fine thank you very much.

I guess you don’t know what it used to be like for Cali and aviation...
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
First off folks, this Thread is to discuss DISNEYLAND and its relationship to the city of Anaheim, and how the partnership works (or doesn't). Now yes, as in with many things in life, politics is part of the relationship.

Talking about Politics in general belongs in the Politics section here at the boards. I have many comment about California in General, but will not answer them here.

Please folks, lets keep the focus on Disneyland in this thread. It is very much appreciated.
 
D

Deleted member 107043

First off folks, this Thread is to discuss DISNEYLAND and its relationship to the city of Anaheim, and how the partnership works (or doesn't). Now yes, as in with many things in life, politics is part of the relationship.

Talking about Politics in general belongs in the Politics section here at the boards. I have many comment about California in General, but will not answer them here.

Please folks, lets keep the focus on Disneyland in this thread. It is very much appreciated.

With all respect, I'm wondering how some are able to separate the two in a thread like this one. Disney lobbying the city for lower taxes, special zoning provisions, and the impact the business has on housing and transportation infastructure is political and integral to the discussion. Connecting the dots between Disney's vision for DLR and how it flexes its muscle with local government to achieve those goals are an important part of any conversation about a DLR expansion.

I've learned from experience that the mods here frown on talking about anything political in the resort threads, but it's a bit of a joke to me that it's perfectly acceptable to go on and on about the poor maintenance of a castle turret roof yet discussing Disney's apparent disregard for the well-being of its park workers - the very people who fix/repair that roof - is off limits.
 
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Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
The money for the Mickey and Friends parking structure came from transportation grants.

Federal contribution was $17.5 million. The state of California tossed in $60 million and Orange County paid $36 million. That is $113.5 million, the total cost of the Mickey and Friends structure was $110 million, the rest was spent on Disneyland Drive improvements. Not one cent of Anaheim city money was used for the construction.

Here are the details on how the Parking Structure was paid for without city funding...

http://www.yesterland.com/westcot2.html
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
OK, I have been reading the proposed initiative again, and this paragraph catches my eye.

>>
6.99.020. SERVICE CHARGES PAID TO EMPLOYEES RENDERING SERVICE. Service charges shall not be retained by an Employer but shall be paid in the entirety by the Employer to the Employee(s) performing services for the customers from whom the service charges are collected.

No part of these amounts may be paid to supervisory or managerial Employees. The amounts shall be paid to the Employee(s) equitably and according to the services that are or appear to be related to the description of the amounts given by the Employer to the customers.

The amounts shall be paid to the Employee(s) in the next payroll following collection of an amount from the customer. This subsection does not apply to any tip, gratuity, money, or part of any tip, gratuity, or money that has been paid or given to or left for an Employee by customers over and above the actual amount due for services rendered or for goods, food, drink, or articles sold or served to the customer. <<

I understand that the tip belongs to the employee, but for a server, I expect that they should be sharing them with the busser and cook who worked with them. Management shouldn't get any of it.

But the unions keep bringing up these poor Hotel Maids. Well, to me, the Maid is a tipped position. So if a made is expected to clean 15 rooms a day. (2 rooms a hour, and a break in a 8 hour day) Let's say that the average tip is $5, so that is an additional $75 per day, or about $10 more per hour than the wage paid. Plus for most folks, that tip money is not reported on the tax return, and therefore no taxes of any kind are taken out (nor are union dues). But even if that get half of that, that is still at the livable wage the unions talk about. Plus maids are left non-cash gifts all the time, such as items bought for the trip(think a stroller) and they don't want to take home. A note is left with the item(s).

Why shouldn't the government take into consideration all types of income earned on the job to determine if a person is making a living wage? Federal law allows tip income to be a consideration in calculating wages and meeting the minimum requirements. (California does not). But if we are talking amount over minimum wage, why shouldn't we look at all sources a person has to live on?

EDIT - How much extra does a Valet, Bell Hop or Server make an hour? Do they need the additional amount in this proposition for a "living Wage"
 
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Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
One more thought.

As a kid, I got Disney Stock as a gift from my parents and relatives. I also started to buy some on my own, plus joined the dividend reinvestment plan. I did get a full college scholarship that I achieved in High School. So it became my "House Fund". And most of my down payment for the first Condo I bought came from the sale of the Disney Stock I had.

So this proposition would reduce the profits of the Walt Disney Company, dropping the value of the stock. So we are taking away the chance for some to buy a house, so someone else can get housing? And of course, I presume some of my retirement funds (A lot of it is invested with Vanguard) could have Disney as part of its portfolio. So they want to lower my pension.

Maybe I should just stop tipping so I can afford my retirement, if I can ever stop working, based on how California keeps wanting more of my money....
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
One more thought.

As a kid, I got Disney Stock as a gift from my parents and relatives. I also started to buy some on my own, plus joined the dividend reinvestment plan. I did get a full college scholarship that I achieved in High School. So it became my "House Fund". And most of my down payment for the first Condo I bought came from the sale of the Disney Stock I had.

So this proposition would reduce the profits of the Walt Disney Company, dropping the value of the stock. So we are taking away the chance for some to buy a house, so someone else can get housing? And of course, I presume some of my retirement funds (A lot of it is invested with Vanguard) could have Disney as part of its portfolio. So they want to lower my pension.

Maybe I should just stop tipping so I can afford my retirement, if I can ever stop working, based on how California keeps wanting more of my money....

I wish I had invested in DRIPs when I learned about them in High School. I would be sitting pretty now if I had.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Due to Fair Use rules, I am only going to list the Paragraphs Titles, the details for each point at the link.

http://www.anaheimblog.net/2018/03/...ing-anaheim-resort-unions-18-wage-initiative/

>>Good Reasons For Not Signing Anaheim Resort Unions’ $18 Wage Initiative

The Union Initiative Will Destroy Existing Jobs And Suppress Hiring.

It Would Give Anaheim The Highest Labor Costs In The Nation

It’s Unnecessary

It Won’t Make Housing More Affordable

This Initiative Turns The Anaheim City Manager Into A Labor Cop

It Arbitrarily, Unjustly and Unfairly Changes Contracts After The Fact

What value is a contract if one party can unilaterally change the terms to the detriment of the other party? That’s what the union’s “living wage” initiative does. It targets Anaheim Resort businesses that have any sort of economic assistance agreement with the City of Anaheim. These businesses entered into these agreements in good faith that both parties would abide by the mutually agreeable terms of the agreements. The union initiative would unilaterally and retroactively impose on those businesses wage floor requirements that would have been rejected if they had been part of the original negotiations.


UNITE-HERE and its union comrades want to abuse the ballot box to re-write existing contracts without the agreement of the parties to those contracts. Even Councilman Jose F. Moreno – an ardent opponent of the 4-Diamond hotel TOT rebate agreements – has said the city would be in breach of contract if it tried to unilaterally alter them. Yet that is what the union coalition initiative would do. That is how governments in banana republics operate, not in nation’s founded on the rule of law.


It Is The Camel’s Nose Under The Tent

The Coalition of Labor Resort Unions’ $18 minimum wage initiative is a cruel hoax. There are many reasons not to sign it and none to recommend its support. It makes false promises to the workers it professes to benefit because it is based on magical thinking and discredited economic theories. Politicizing Anaheim’s economy and injecting city government into labor disputes will hobble rather than help economic opportunity and growth in the city.<<

Once again, the detail for each point is at the link.

I agree. All this is about is the Unions trying to avoid direct negations with the companies, both Union and Non-Union, to convert even more members to be unionized.


And why does the proposition say that you can’t take into consideration tips to see if they are making a “living wage”?


Why should we give a wage increase to the Hotel Valet? An average Valet can easily make over $50 a hour in Tips. (Park 10 cars in a hour, get a $5 tip on each one, sometimes more, sometimes a lot more) And that money is hard to track for income tax purposes and goes underreported by many. So it is worth more than the equivalent in wages. Plus they get the full state minimum wage. Now this proposition would give that person an extra $3 per hour. Same for the Bell Hop, Concierge, Front Desk person, the server, the bartender, the maid, etc. Why shouldn’t we look at their TRUE income, instead of the way the Union wants us to look at it? The proposition is flawed.


How is increasing wages for some going to reduce homelessness? There are only so many housing units in the area, due to supply and demand, those with the extra revenue will be willing to pay more for an apartment, so they will take away apartments from other lower income earners working for someone not receiving city subsidies.


Also, due to changing/voiding contracts already signed by the city, this proposition could cost the city Millions in legal fees, and possibly be one the hook for the increased wage amount, which could bankrupt the city.


So why place it on the ballot, which would cost the city money due to the Register of Voters?
 

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