LA Times: Is Disney Paying Its Fair Share In Anaheim

Travel Junkie

Well-Known Member
Amazon with Seattle and Disney with Anaheim couldn't be more different situations. Amazon basically owns all of Seattle and there is very little room to expand further. Not to mention there is a huge backlash against Amazon in Seattle. Seattle didn't lose Amazon's HQ2 because they failed an enticing offer. They have nothing else to offer short of knocking down sports stadiums to build more office space. Amazon would rather stay in Seattle if they could. Running two separate HQ's is not cheap.

On the other hand there was room in Anaheim for Disney and it was in Disney's interest to stay in Anaheim. It would be rather dumb for Disney to have two theme parks in two different cities. How would DCA be doing as a standalone park? Not very well.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Amazon with Seattle and Disney with Anaheim couldn't be more different situations.

Not at all - because the Amazon HQ2 situation is not just about Seattle... it's about the deals every city is trying to put together to land all this tenent.

Second... Yes Disney was looking at building outside Anaheim... and had shown commitment to do so. So doing it in Anaheim, or even doing the expansion period, were not lock-ins.

It's already been shown several times how the deal struck not only secured Anaheim as the location, but BOOSTED the scale of the project. There is no speculation needed here... just people trying to hide from the history.
 

Travel Junkie

Well-Known Member
Not at all - because the Amazon HQ2 situation is not just about Seattle... it's about the deals every city is trying to put together to land all this tenent.

That was not even close to the point. It was inferred that Seattle was losing HQ2 because they weren't willing to give Amazon what they want and further proof that Anaheim did the right thing by giving Disney what they wanted. That isn't the case. Completely different scenarios because Seattle doesn't want an HQ2 because they logistically can't handle it. Anaheim was in a different boat.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
That was not even close to the point. It was inferred that Seattle was losing HQ2 because they weren't willing to give Amazon what they want and further proof that Anaheim did the right thing by giving Disney what they wanted. That isn't the case. Completely different scenarios because Seattle doesn't want an HQ2 because they logistically can't handle it. Anaheim was in a different boat.

No... the comment Michael made was about the type of sweeteners Anaheim used... that were low risk and largely paid by people beside the local tax payers. The article linked was all about the creative types of incentives being conceived...

Like this quote from the article:
"Those 30, though, amply demonstrate our capitulation to corporate influence in politics. There’s a new wave, in which some City Halls seem willing to go beyond just throwing money at Amazon. They’re turning over the keys to the democracy.

Coming from the home of the largest corporate tax-break package in U.S. history, which our state gave to Boeing, I figured I was well acquainted with the dark arts of economic-incentive deals.

But still I was surprised to see the lengths to which some cities and states will go to get a piece of that high-tech glory."

Nothing in the article was about Seattle missing out... the post was about methods... and the fact Anaheim created a sweet deal that didn't include the risk of "winners curse"
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Look at Sport Arenas/Stadium, it is (or was) common to have the government give land to the owners in return for the team building the stadium.

Anaheim took the approach when it built the original Arena (part of the Convention Center), Angel Stadium and the Honda Center, they kept the land, and paid for and built the facilities. They now collect funds (rent and other sharing of revenue) that might be a bit low, but they get the teams in town (and the fans coming to the game). The city is very happy with that decision.

The city was very happy in the 1990's and most of the 21st century, until one Mayor had a grudge with Disney, and why all the complaints started. The city is getting more tax revenue from Disney and related tourism every year. But since the new council wants to spend more than they collect, they are using Disney as a scapegoat, and using their allies to get articles written in the LA Times.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Just came across this LA Times Article from 1993.

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-06-23/news/mn-6332_1_walt-disney

>> Parking: Disney wants to build two main parking structures, believed to be the largest in the United States. On the west side of the theme park, a 16,700-space structure would have to be financed by the city, most likely through the sale of insured municipal bonds. On the east, the Orange County Transportation Authority has sought federal funding to develop the garage as a commuter bus station--and split the balance of the cost among the city, state and county agencies. Total cost of both structures would be about $450 million.<<

>>There is little mystery about why the city appears ready to take a gamble with Disney: jobs and tax revenue.

Disney is promising that the project will create 17,500 jobs in the city when it is complete in 1998. In addition, construction work will be plentiful during development.

The city estimates that by 2008 it will be earning $36 million more annually in taxes and fees than the $14.6 million it would take in without the project. And city officials insist that they are taking a hard line in negotiations with Disney, and may refuse to shoulder as much of the cost as Disney would wish.

The city has three basic ground rules: prevent any risk to the main pot of city money that pays for such basic services as police and fire protection, insure the bonds in case the project fails, and be sure there is a net gain in revenue after all the bonds and other costs of increased services are paid.<<

So, as I stated before, the City did not pay for much of the Parking Structure, instead the city used its governmental powers to apply for transportation grants from other agencies to cover the costs. And it looks like Anaheim got everything it wanted in the deal.

On the other hand, Disney didn't get everything it wanted.

So once again, the Daniel Miller biased hit piece is just that, an one sided "progressive" look back, and not based in reality.
 

Travel Junkie

Well-Known Member
Once again a biased hit piece doesn't give the other side which the Times article in question clearly showed and I have quoted earlier in the thread. Some people just refuse to look at it.

You may disagree with it, you may call it bad writing, but to say it was a hit piece shows you read what you wanted to and ignored the rest. Echo chambers are an unfortunate reality in today's world. Calling it a hit piece 100 times doesn't make it suddenly true even though some try and think that it does.
 

Curious Constance

Well-Known Member
Once again a biased hit piece doesn't give the other side which the Times article in question clearly showed and I have quoted earlier in the thread. Some people just refuse to look at it.

You may disagree with it, you may call it bad writing, but to say it was a hit piece shows you read what you wanted to and ignored the rest. Echo chambers are an unfortunate reality in today's world. Calling it a hit piece 100 times doesn't make it suddenly true even though some try and think that it does.

Calling it a hit piece doesn't make it one. But what does make it one is the fact that someone with a political agenda bought and paid for the article to be written in a way that would benefit their cause.

I really don't care about Disney or the city, or who did what. I'm just disturbed that you can buy articles that are published in print as fact, that aren't fact. They are simply to further someone's agenda.
 

Travel Junkie

Well-Known Member
Calling it a hit piece doesn't make it one. But what does make it one is the fact that someone with a political agenda bought and paid for the article to be written in a way that would benefit their cause.

I really don't care about Disney or the city, or who did what. I'm just disturbed that you can buy articles that are published in print as fact, that aren't fact. They are simply to further someone's agenda.

Who bought and paid for the article? That's a serious charge.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
What did the city of Anaheim provide?

It's power as an governmental agency.

It issued the bonds that were financed by the additional 2% TOT taxes paid for by the tourists, and guaranteed by Disney. Basic costs were nothing, and in return the city got hundreds of millions of new tax revenue collected above the amount needed to pay of the bond, the Resort District improvements, additions and upgrading the city owned convention center, tens of thousands of new jobs, a lot more sales tax revenue. They got the parking structure done by accessing transportation funds available for the project.

So the cost to the city was basically some administration fees.

Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

As the OC Register pointed out " With its header, select information, and lack of context, the paper leads a reader by the nose to a wrong conclusion. The correct answer, however, is a resounding “yes.”.

In 2016 Disney paid over $125 million in taxes and fees.

The net surplus to the City of Anaheim for Fiscal Year 2017-18 is $81.6 million – a more than 800% rate of return for Anaheim taxpayers.

There are now about 30,000 direct jobs at the DLR, and many more in the Hotel, Restaurant and other tourist related industry.

As for the TOT taxes, in which the city want $36 million more per year above the bond payoff back in 1993, was over $80 million in 2016.

And TOT taxes go straight to the city, unlike property taxes and sales taxes, which are apportioned among the state, schools, city and county government.

One writer pointed out..."Miller focuses inordinately on a single aspect of the 1996 agreement – the Mickey and Friends parking structure – using it to guide the readers to the conclusion Anaheim taxpayers are being taken advantage. The 1996 Resort District agreement were solely about the parking structure, Miller would have a point." It is clear that the city didn't pay for the structure, just used its governmental power to make it happen.

As I mentioned with first hand knowledge, Daniel Miller’s line of questioning left no doubt that the premise was baked in from the beginning: Disney is taking advantage of Anaheim taxpayers.

Who did Daniel Miller end up quoting, every Disneyland CM was a Union Steward.

The Anaheim residents were all Moreno supporters

The articles basically was one sided, and pushed for by Progressives and unions like UNITE-HERE.

The last city election was not by any means a mandate. And I am speaking as an Anaheim resident involved in local politics.

The articles were arranged by progressives and unions like UNITE-HERE.

So we have an one sided, slanted look omitting a lot of facts, and therefore a hit piece for Mayor Tait and Councilmember Moreno to be used to influence the upcoming city elections, which many folks expect to become more business friendly a year from now.
 
D

Deleted member 107043

My take on this whole deal is that it hardly matters what the agenda is/was if there was truth in the reporting. Maybe the author hates Disney, has a girlfriend who hates her boss in Fantasyland, or has a vendetta to undermine an executive at DLR, who knows. If so the motive to write and publish the story would be questionable, but it wouldn’t necessarily discredit the reporting. To me whatever agenda the author or the paper has against Disney is a separate issue from what was revealed in the story.

The results of the November 2016 Anaheim election were an obvious reaction to local frustration over years of cronyism between Disney and the city’s government. So, there’s that. Also, most everything in the article has been corroborated by various sources, and in the wake of the news Disney lashed out in a way that underscored that the company is willing to strong-arm to get its way. So, there’s that too.

Sorry, I’ve tried, but I can’t bring myself to side with Disney on this one.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Once again, the November 2016 election was not a mandate by ANY reason.

http://www.anaheimblog.net/2017/10/02/la-times-disney-anaheim-sins-of-omission/

>>
If case you missed the second installment of the LA Times’s two-part, one-dimensional series on Anaheim and Disney, here’s executive summary:

Two anti-Disney candidates – Jose F. Moreno and Arturo Ferreras – ran for Anaheim City Council in November 2016. Disney spent a lot of money on council campaigns. Ferreras lost big and Moreno barely won. This represents a voter shift away from Disney.

To read reporter Daniel Miller’s telling of the District 3 and 4 elections, the only real player was Disney, and therefore Moreno’s squeaker victory can be read as an anti-Disney backlash. Other factors that materially contributed to the outcome are ignored. The article’s biased is even more pronounced due to the reporter’s quoting of anti-Disney individuals without identifying them as such.

Some examples:

Outgunned financially, Moreno’s chances appeared slim. But he hammered away at the idea that corporate subsidies had created “two Anaheims.”

Moreno was outspent by a significant margin, but not outgunned. He had built up some name ID from running for city council in 2014, and had never really stopped running. He had the endorsement of the Democratic Party of Orange County, thereby benefiting from intense Democratic voter contact in the district. And his campaign spent nearly $60,000, more than sufficient in a district with only 19,000 voters. He also had Mayor Tom Tait campaigning strongly on his behalf. Miller ignores these and other important factors.

Miller notes Moreno was the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit to led to the Anaheim city council by voting districts for the first time in 2016. However, when discussing the disparity between spending for and against Moreno, Miller neglects to mention that by-district elections can blunt such funding disparities. There’s only so much mail campaigns can stuff into a district before the electorate is super-saturated with political messaging. And District 3 voters were being deluged with campaign mail not only for the council race, but from the hyper-competitive SD29 and AD65 races.

Consequently, a vigorous ground game becomes relatively more important, and in this respect Moreno and Brandman were competing on more than equal terms. In addition to his own volunteers, the militant hotel workers union UNITE-HERE Local 11 deployed a small army of precinct walkers on Moreno’s behalf in the final weeks of the campaign.

Moreno’s message resonated. His victory — in one of the tightest races in Anaheim history — helped flip the balance of power on the City Council.

Can we really say Moreno’s message “resonated” when 64% of District 3 voters cast their ballots for somebody else?

Miller goes on to cite current concerns of Anaheim residents:

Poverty, declining income and rising crime are all contributing to a creeping restiveness. The city’s crime rate, after dipping earlier this decade, increased 14% from 2014 to 2016, according to data from the FBI. It has risen 1% since 2000.

Several Anaheim residents said they want more of the city’s tax revenue spent on making neighborhoods safer and tackling homelessness — a mushrooming problem that has drawn headlines as a large encampment of people has formed near Angel Stadium.

Anaheim residents are fed up with crime and homelessness – but this was hardly a factor in Moreno’s election, and is undermining his re-election prospects. Candidate Moreno supported repeal of the anti-campaign ordinance, which he criticized as having been enacted “to push the homeless out of the parks.” At a council meeting earlier this year he stated his belief that increased enforcement — which is precisely what his constituents are demanding – would make the homeless situation worse.<<

So the council went from 5 to 7 members in 2016, and due to the way the new districts were split up and which districts got to vote in 2016, Dr. Moreno won by 72 votes, with less than 36% of the District 3 voters. (He got 4,647 votes).

No obvious reaction, in fact, many think when the city votes in November 2016 for a new Mayor, plus District 2 and 6 finally get to vote for a councilmember, plus Dr. Moreno's seat is up for re-election, the council will once again not be "Anti-Disney".

I was working a political event last Thursday to repeal the California new gas and diesel taxes, plus increased DMV fees. Multiple DLR CM's came up to request multiple petitions to take back to work to gather signature, due to the increased driving costs to and from work. It looks like the constitutional amendment will easily get it's goal of 1 million gathered signatures by January. (over 100,000 were gathered in the first week). And it was just reported that the state will have a $7.5 billion surplus in 2018-2019. Seems like we don't need new taxes.
 
D

Deleted member 107043

Really, can you cite some, seems like the points made were not correct, especially the statement that the city paid for the parking structure, when it clearly did not.

With all respect let it go. I find Disney's behavior indefensible in this case and apparently you don't. It's been months since this all went down, and I have my opinion and you have yours. Nothing we say is going to change each other's minds.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
While the ballotpedia page is wrong, I will adjust the quote to reflect the actual outcome. (Mr. Brandman was leading until the final few votes were tabulated).

https://ballotpedia.org/Municipal_elections_in_Anaheim,_California_(2016)

>>Tait endorsed one slate of candidates in the 2016 city council election. SOAR PAC, the Disney-funded political action committee for the business and community coalition Support Our Anaheim Resort Area (SOAR PAC), backed another.[21][22] TWO out of four SOAR PAC candidates won election to the council, while Denise Barnes and Jose Moreno were the two candidate endorsed by Tait to win in 2016. <<
 

Travel Junkie

Well-Known Member
As the OC Register pointed out " With its header, select information, and lack of context, the paper leads a reader by the nose to a wrong conclusion. The correct answer, however, is a resounding “yes.”.

The OC Register is basically a mouthpiece for Disney. They often attack others who try and hold Disney accountable.

As I mentioned with first hand knowledge, Daniel Miller’s line of questioning left no doubt that the premise was baked in from the beginning: Disney is taking advantage of Anaheim taxpayers.

You have made it very clear about your distaste and hatred of the mayor and your continued relentlessness on this on other topics make it clear that you are doing everything possible to paint the mayor and certain members of the city council members in the worst light possible without presenting the other side. Yet you are trying to state someone else is being biased and one sided. So with all that being said I'm going to need evidence that the author had an agenda before I change my mind, because you have proven yourself to not be a reliable source of information without having an agenda.

The articles basically was one sided, and pushed for by Progressives and unions like UNITE-HERE.

Any evidence of this? I certainly can tell where you stand politically with that distain for "progressives" and unions.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
With all respect let it go. I find Disney's behavior indefensible in this case and apparently you don't. It's been months since this all went down, and I have my opinion and you have yours. Nothing we say is going to change each other's minds.

You have an opinion you formed pretty much solely on the original article (admitting several times in this thread you didn't have the background in the local scene or politics) and every piece of info handed to you... you do this:
i-cant-hear-you-lalalalala.jpg


You can call it your opinion... that doesn't make it any more acceptable when you refuse to take in citations and information because it counters your current view.

That's called ignorance by choice - not opinion.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
You have made it very clear about your distaste and hatred of the mayor and your continued relentlessness on this on other topics make it clear that you are doing everything possible to paint the mayor and certain members of the city council members in the worst light possible without presenting the other side. Yet you are trying to state someone else is being biased and one sided. So with all that being said I'm going to need evidence that the author had an agenda before I change my mind, because you have proven yourself to not be a reliable source of information without having an agenda

I got one... the fact Darkbeer has been reliably reporting on the politics in the city for more than twenty years... and has proven himself objective when it comes to reporting on Disney's activities beyond the berm. He doesn't have to agree with the different positions to report on them.. and he's been doing that for ages. His track record is out there for those who care to wind back the clock.

The fact some take the recent election results as some sign... without even comprehending or looking at how the whole process changed or the real results is comical. No, I take it as people defending religion....
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
The OC Register is basically a mouthpiece for Disney. They often attack others who try and hold Disney accountable.

Really, that is just laughable, the OC Register, a publication of Digital First, which runs the Southern California News Group, has attacked anti-Disney folks!?!?

Some would call what I did at MousePlanet, Jim Hill Media and MiceAge as anti-Disney, in pointing out its mistakes and flaws. But I worked with the Register staff in providing some of that information about DCA 1.0, which had MANY problems. The Register has never been afraid to call out Disney when they disagree with them.
 

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