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Jungle Cruise Update

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Whether the stories take place in pre or post Civil War, they’re still problematic.

Okay. But the fact remains the Uncle Remus stories were written and are set after the Civil War. He was not a slave, and that's important, as I'm sure you'd agree.

I could ask "problematic to whom", because most literature written in the 19th century would be "problematic" to much of 21st century audiences; women, gays, Asians, the disabled, etc., etc.

But once that 19th century literature has been distilled into a late 20th century log ride using robot singing chickens, is it really still problematic? I don't think it is. That said, I'm still looking forward to the Princess Tiana's Bayou Bash N' Splash, Presented by ZIploc version of this ride.

I never saw the Tiana movie, but I sure loved that musical show they did on the Mark Twain with this movie that one summer! It was fabulous.
 

Professortango1

Well-Known Member
Only in your opinion, not fact. There are many fans who reveal otherwise.

Only in your opinion it is Bland, not fact. There are those who said otherwise. If it did not do well, it wouldn't have won a great award. You call that not well?

None of what you say is full truth. There are so people who do care. We seen it in comments or other sources. The only reason others don't know Song of the south is because they never seen and don't know the true nature, and because Disney, mainly the current bosses, are not showing it in public foolishly. Already it is causing a riot, when people are demanding it.

Those films are not racist, only by a troll and blind hater's tongue.

Besides, since the riot of the lack of the film not appearing, the PC/Cancel Culture, the re-themes, and the firing of actors , like Gina who spoke some truth as many said, those might lead to some changes on the next shareholders next month who would, as well as cancelations.

I don't want to talk about this anymore.

Song of the South played in theatres in 1987. Its final DVD release was 2000 in the UK. People have seen it. Critics praise Baskett and the animated sequences, but that's about it. I have not seen any fan who enjoys the film as a whole. The reason it won awards was for the amazing performance by Baskett, the great song Zip-a-dee-do-da, and the gorgeous ending with the animated characters in a real world environment. The movie has some great moments and is a technological achievement and certainly earns its place in the history of film, but that doesn't change the fact the movie wasn't worth Disney putting out in the US.

And of course bland is a subjective opinion. I don't think anyone would believe that I'm stating a movie as good or bad or bland as a objective fact so I'm not sure why you're arguing against that. I never said Song of the South didn't have fans.

And yes, Dumbo is racist. The movie calls black people "apes," claims they can't read or write or manage money, and then designed/named a character after a popular Minstrel Show character. Minstrel Shows had gone out of fashion by the 1910's, so a movie made 30 years later using the character can't be called in good taste.

And no significant share holders are upset about the firing of Gina. She had been warned several times and continued to post content which Disney's code of conduct doesn't allow. She was a walking liability Disney was right to get her off their payroll.
 

raven24

Well-Known Member
Okay. But the fact remains the Uncle Remus stories were written and are set after the Civil War. He was not a slave, and that's important, as I'm sure you'd agree.

I could ask "problematic to whom", because most literature written in the 19th century would be "problematic" to much of 21st century audiences; women, gays, Asians, the disabled, etc., etc.

But once that 19th century literature has been distilled into a late 20th century log ride using robot singing chickens, is it really still problematic? I don't think it is. That said, I'm still looking forward to the Princess Tiana's Bayou Bash N' Splash, Presented by ZIploc version of this ride.

I never saw the Tiana movie, but I sure loved that musical show they did on the Mark Twain with this movie that one summer! It was fabulous.
I personally don't find any significance in Remus not being a slave. Remus' character is still problematic (racist towards African Americans) and if we're talking history, life for African Americans after slavery wasn't good or happy at all.

Splash is an issue because it's based on Song of the South. That movie will always be a problem, especially as long as Disney refuses to make it available to the American public.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I personally don't find any significance in Remus not being a slave. Remus' character is still problematic (racist towards African Americans) and if we're talking history, life for African Americans after slavery wasn't good or happy at all.

Probably not. But life for Black Americans in 1870 was a marked improvement compared to their life in 1860.

You don't go from slavery to Barack Obama in a 3 year time span. It takes time, often many decades, for the human story to play out.

The fact remains; Uncle Remus was portrayed during the Reconstruction Era. And so the singing chickens in the log ride were a little happier living in 1870 than they'd have been if it was 1860. Good news! (For those who even knew Splash Mountain had a plotline, which many of us pre-Internet didn't)

Splash is an issue because it's based on Song of the South. That movie will always be a problem, especially as long as Disney refuses to make it available to the American public.

I have a DVD of it from Japan. It's a cute movie, but not one of Walt's best works. It's mostly notable for two things; the way the humans interact with the cartoons two decades before Mary Poppins came out, and a very catchy song called Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah. The rest of the movie was just sort of cute but not fabulous.

Which is why I'm kind of looking forward to Princess Tiana's Bayou Bash N' Splash, Presented by Ziploc.
 

Professortango1

Well-Known Member
Not to mention that LA Times article from 1987 was factually incorrect.

The Song Of The South stories, as told by Uncle Remus, were published from 1881 to 1918 and were set in the Reconstruction South, not the "pre-Civil War South" as the LA Times incorrectly claimed. Uncle Remus is a Freed Man, not a slave.

I make fun of the LA Times in the 21st century because it's so painfully obvious they don't have good editors any more. Or any editors at all. But I guess that was also a problem for them in the 1980's. No wonder their readership collapsed and they had to move to El Segundo. :D

But that I dared to mention that fact will probably mean I'm a horrible racist and Pro Singing Chicken. Or something. I can never quite keep up with what I'm for or against when it comes to the singing chickens.

The setting is debated as Disney purposefully made it unclear if the film was set before the war or afterwards. Some of the fashion selected is Antebellum fashion and some report that Disney refused to assign a date or specific time period to the project. This vagueness has only added to the controversy.

I personally don't find the film anymore racist than Bagger Vance or any other "magical negro" type tale where the friendly and happy in his station black servant/slave is here to help a white person learn something.

Whether the film was set before the war or not, 1940's Disney was not about to show a realistic depiction of slavery in a kid's movie and being upset that its depiction of the slaves/sharecroppers is so whitewashed is like being upset that Princess and the Frog doesn't tackle the social barriers keeping black women in the 1920's oppressed and instead focuses on her poverty and being a frog as obstacles.
 

Professortango1

Well-Known Member
Splash is an issue because it's based on Song of the South. That movie will always be a problem, especially as long as Disney refuses to make it available to the American public.

You can argue that's Splash's source material is problematic, but that doesn't make the ride itself problematic as none of those aspects are present in the attraction nor does the attraction push guests to watch the source material since it isn't available.

Many of our beloved stories have aspects that no longer fly with audiences and are updated. A creator correcting or eliminating an issue from the story is a valid fix. We don't demand Willy Wonka never be shown and Wonka bars to be discontinued despite the racist first publication of the book. If Beastly Kingdom had been built, I don't think we'd be demanding the Fantasia attraction be pulled due to the original release's racist centaur.

We, as a society have racism and sexism in our roots. Therefore, almost all properties will have issues when viewed from the future. What matters is how these stories change for future audiences. Do they double down on problematic aspects or do they fix the issues? I see Splash as a fix. It took what most agreed were the best parts of the film (the music and adaptations of Chandler Harris' stories) and centered an attraction of those adapted stories and folk characters.

That's why I wholeheartedly believe that Disney made this upcoming change not for wokeness, but because they could sell a lot more merch / Disney + subscriptions if they swapped it out. The woke aspect was just a bow on top of this business decision.
 

raven24

Well-Known Member
Probably not. But life for Black Americans in 1870 was a marked improvement compared to their life in 1860.

You don't go from slavery to Barack Obama in a 3 year time span. It takes time, often many decades, for the human story to play out.

The fact remains; Uncle Remus was portrayed during the Reconstruction Era. And so the singing chickens in the log ride were a little happier living in 1870 than they'd have been if it was 1860. Good news! (For those who even knew Splash Mountain had a plotline, which many of us pre-Internet didn't)



I have a DVD of it from Japan. It's a cute movie, but not one of Walt's best works. It's mostly notable for two things; the way the humans interact with the cartoons two decades before Mary Poppins came out, and a very catchy song called Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah. The rest of the movie was just sort of cute but not fabulous.

Which is why I'm kind of looking forward to Princess Tiana's Bayou Bash N' Splash, Presented by Ziploc.
The "better life after slavery" argument, particularly the years of Reconstruction, is debatable. I won't get into the many reasons as to how and why life was hell for a southern African American after the Civil War, but that information is available on the internet.

You're right, it took close to 100 years after the War just to get basic civil rights and anti-discrimination laws passed, and another 44 years for America to vote in its first biracially black and white president.

Song of the South's portrayal of African Americans is still wrong, 1870 or not.

Racism aside, Song of the South is a boring movie and I have no interest in watching it again.
 

raven24

Well-Known Member
You can argue that's Splash's source material is problematic, but that doesn't make the ride itself problematic as none of those aspects are present in the attraction nor does the attraction push guests to watch the source material since it isn't available.
You're right that the ride is missing the racist elements, but it's still linked to SotS. That's the problem.
 

SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
Wow! Some great investigative work there and some interesting facts behind these two Imagineers we've never heard of before.

For Ms. Carter, it seems she started at WDI in the 2000's as an accountant, and her accounting career took her into the 2010's before she was promoted to several different jobs with "Producer" in the titles. I'm reminded of the fabulous Jennifer Coolidge from For Your Consideration, when she is asked what exactly a Producer does, and she responds with... "Snacks". 🤣


As for Ms. Smith, that's a resume that is even more nebulous than Ms. Carter's. But it certainly has very impressive words. Lots of words. Important words. Executive class words. Words with meaning and impact.

But how she has impacted the building of high quality rides at amusement parks since 2010 is... still not really known or explained.

That might be a problem coming from an "Imagineer" that no one has ever heard of before. :oops:

Both women seem remarkably accomplished- but Disneyland is a different beast entirely, especially when talking about Splash Mountain and Jungle Cruise.

The folks who led the Splash Mountain project back in the late '80s- primarily Bruce Gordon and Tony Baxter- are perhaps the two biggest Disneyland fans Imagineering has ever had. Tony's story is well known, but Bruce has fallen into obscurity primarily due to his untimely death. I like Jim Hill's article on Bruce. I mean these were two guys who understood Disneyland, what it needed and the elements that make a Disneyland attraction great.

Those are the kind of people I want developing major attractions at Disneyland, or making decisions on how to change existing attractions. In such a compact park with such a rich history, every change needs to be thoughtfully and tastefully done since every change has to fit alongside attractions and architecture that are decades old. Ms. Carter and Ms. Smith are two very accomplished ladies- but nothing about their bland corporate statements or work history tells me they're the right people to replace Splash Mountain or drive changes to the Jungle Cruise.

I might be a bit jaded but honestly with the current corporate climate, budget cuts, etc at WDI and Disney as a whole- I don't think it's possible for them to create the 'lightning in a bottle' magic that Marc Davis's pass at the Jungle Cruise, or Tony and Bruce's pass at a log flume have.

That said, I'm far more optimistic about the Jungle Cruise changes then I am the Splash removal.
 
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D.Silentu

Well-Known Member
The two biggest names I saw in the Disney Parks Blog article when they announced the Splash change are Charita Carter (Senior Creative Producer) and Carmen Smith (Creative Development and Inclusive Strategies Executive). I just spent 15 minutes reading up on both of them- because before 2020 I hadn't heard of either of them.
Skimming the conversation regarding Imagineer Charita Carter and her resume, I'd like to add the contemporary projection work in the Indiana Jones Adventure. She came to my attention via my curiosity about those effects, as I feel they elevated the idol scene even beyond the original implementation.
 

unmitigated disaster

Well-Known Member
You're right that the ride is missing the racist elements, but it's still linked to SotS. That's the problem.
Yep. The original tales Harris collected were either from the slaves - he spent time with them, listening to their stories - or inspired by their stories. Some have been traced back to the African continent, although of course the animals were changed to American animals. He wrote in dialect and Harris believed in racial equality.

*Song of the South* managed to miss that. The movie is set in a vague time that easily could be antebellum, and one where Uncle Remus is happy to be a slave, or possibly a freed man happy to act like one. I'm sure that was uncomfortable to the black audience in 1946, and it's worse now. Why getting rid of the "slavery good!" background of the ride is unacceptable I have no idea.
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
Everything you want to know about...


The problem I’m beginning to see is not that the ride itself is racist, but the relative distance from the problematic source material isn’t far enough away from Splash Mountain that takes repurposed animatronics from America Sings. The happy songs like Zip A Doo Dah and Laughing Place disregards the “situation” becomes the problem. Now, that’s something the present Disney no longer wants to defend or explain.
 
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AnonymousStitch

New Member
Song of the South played in theatres in 1987. Its final DVD release was 2000 in the UK. People have seen it.
I already know that. But no said was mentioning it. I only said it was not seen in disc on USA. And for the record, that doesn't disregard that people love it.

Critics praise Baskett and the animated sequences, but that's about it.
Not only that.
I have not seen any fan who enjoys the film as a whole. The reason it won awards was for the amazing performance by Baskett, the great song Zip-a-dee-do-da, and the gorgeous ending with the animated characters in a real world environment. The movie has some great moments and is a technological achievement and certainly earns its place in the history of film, but that doesn't change the fact the movie wasn't worth Disney putting out in the US.
Just because you haven't seen any fan, doesn't mean they don't exist.
And of course bland is a subjective opinion. I don't think anyone would believe that I'm stating a movie as good or bad or bland as a objective fact so I'm not sure why you're arguing against that. I never said Song of the South didn't have fans.
No, but you sounded like you said it didn't have any. Not saying you have.
And yes, Dumbo is racist. The movie calls black people "apes," claims they can't read or write or manage money, and then designed/named a character after a popular Minstrel Show character. Minstrel Shows had gone out of fashion by the 1910's, so a movie made 30 years later using the character can't be called in good taste.
Only racist to you and blind haters.
And no significant share holders are upset about the firing of Gina. She had been warned several times and continued to post content which Disney's code of conduct doesn't allow. She was a walking liability Disney was right to get her off their payroll.
Things change. And what Disney was not right about is hiding is history. It's like lying. One always needs to reconcile their past in order to move tranquil into the future. And guess, what, Gina's firing is already causing a riot. Also, what happened to her was exactly what they did to the director of Guardians of the Galaxy, before they were forced to bring him back.

Again, I told you, I don't want to talk about this anymore. I want us to drop it. Let it go.
 

AnonymousStitch

New Member
The topic of racism has been around for quite sometime about splash. I worked splash in the early 2000s and even then cast talked about the racisim in the movie/ride. it might not have been in the limelight as it is now but it was still there.
And what they talk about only in their opinions, not facts.
 
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AnonymousStitch

New Member
Everything you want to know about...


The problem I’m beginning to see is not that the ride itself is racist, but the relative distance from the problematic source material isn’t far enough away from Splash Mountain that takes repurposed animatronics from America Sings. The happy songs like Zip A Doo Dah and Laughing Place disregards the “situation” becomes the problem. Now, that’s something the present Disney no longer wants to defend or explain.
At least this link showed truth here.
 

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