Jungle Cruise Re-Imagining

[corran horn]

"my house is on fire but at least I'm keeping warm".

 

[MisterPenguin]

oh you misunderstood, the statement was in response to another. It might be hard to comprehend but the world and history are not black and white. things arent just good or bad. there were many bad things about colonialism and there were many good things that came out of it. i know its easier to pretend like something is just bad or good but thats not reality.

not seeing how colonialism helped advance religious, womens, racial, lgbt human rights just shows pure ignorance of history.

also "the burden of the white man" now youre just being racist... again ironic from people complaining about things they think are racist...

"The Burden of the White Man" is the trope of a Colonialist justifying their conquest with racism. Which you just did.

 

[rylouisbo]

"The Burden of the White Man" is the trope of a Colonialist justifying their conquest with racism. Which you just did.

so you purposefully used a racial quote in order to put me down... yea thats racism. but i guess you think its ok when you race in derogatory ways.

again, nobody justified anything i said there were good and bad parts to a historical event, which is factually true and has been written about by academia and historians for ages... lol

 

[MisterPenguin]

so you purposefully used a racial quote in order to put me down... yea thats racism. but i guess you think its ok when you race in derogatory ways.

again, nobody justified anything i said there were good and bad parts to a historical event, which is factually true and has been written about by academia and historians for ages... lol

Colonialism is racism. You're justifying it. That's racist.

 

[TalkingHead]

I'm guessing you don't realize the horribly racist trope that you just used?

Didn't cross my mind, actually. You're welcome to fill in any animal for the analogy, since the point is humans vs. animals is what the "story" will be revolving around. Apes seemed appropriate since WDI is adding -- wait for it -- apes. Do you think we should question why they chose that particular animal for the new gags?

 

[TalkingHead]

Maybe. I see where you’re going with the slippery slope argument, but I don’t think that applies here.

I think the new version of the ride will acknowledge the power dynamics by removing the gags that might play on racial differences and come at the expense of groups of people. It’s progress toward Disney’s stated goal of inclusion, in my opinion.

You'd need to take that up with lazyboy who implied the choice of animal in the gag could be construed as racist.

 

[TalkingHead]

Colonialism is racism. You're justifying it. That's racist.

The problem with the ride is it's based on a pulp genre of colonialist romance and adventure that was, at its heart, developed from Eurocentrist ideas of racial superiority. Look no further than the boats which are modeled on the African Queen, a film about colonial impulses and religious missionaries.

I would love to know what convoluted story WDI has invented to explain a bunch of skippers traipsing around the jungle. If you're going to decolonize the story for 2021, you have to essentially scrap it and start over.

If the scenes and indigenous figures in the ride are offensive, then the whole premise of the ride should be as well. I suspect if the live-action movie hadn't been made, the ride would eventually have been replaced entirely. It's valuable real estate and as we've seen Disney hasn't really addressed what makes the ride problematic at its core.

Or maybe like the other poster said, it's only the fun parts of colonialism now?

 

[rylouisbo]

Colonialism is racism. You're justifying it. That's racist.

no colonialism is not racism. thats a complete rewrite and lie about history. there was many instances of colonialism where it was the same race against the same race. there was also colonialism in many forms all throughout the world through history it was not just a western European concept. certainly many examples of racism in the history of colonialism too but youre over simplifying for obviously political reasons.

again nobody justified bad things that happened during colonialism, clarifying that there was good that came from it too is not justification its stating a fact about history... always funny to see people try to change the facts and history to suit their beliefs completely ignoring all over evidence...

and youre the only one using racial language to put people down sooooo......

 

[rylouisbo]

The problem with the ride is it's based on a pulp genre of colonialist romance and adventure that was, at its heart, developed from Eurocentrist ideas of racial superiority. Look no further than the boats which are modeled on the African Queen, a film about colonial impulses and religious missionaries.

I would love to know what convoluted story WDI has invented to explain a bunch of skippers traipsing around the jungle. If you're going to decolonize the story for 2021, you have to essentially scrap it and start over.

If the scenes and indigenous figures in the ride are offensive, then the whole premise of the ride should be as well. I suspect if the live-action movie hadn't been made, the ride would eventually have been replaced entirely. It's valuable real estate and as we've seen Disney hasn't really addressed what makes the ride problematic at its core.

Or maybe like the other poster said, it's only the fun parts of colonialism now?

i mean the united states is a part of colonialism so... should be scrap that too? no american flags as they are a product of racism?

 

[MisterPenguin]

i mean the united states is a part of colonialism so... should be scrap that too? no american flags as they are a product of racism?

Ask the Native Americans.

 

[corran horn]

i mean the united states is a part of colonialism so... should be scrap that too? no american flags as they are a product of racism?

You're getting so close.

 

[rylouisbo]

lmao, just state your position clearly then. you dont like the united states, you hate all its history, you dont like the flag flying around the parks. i'm suprised you like disney at all hes like the spokesperson for colonialism. haha

 

[celluloid]

Ask the Native Americans.

Define Native, and define "American" at that time. There were wars and colonizing each other of tribes. No one I saw has stated any were better than others. All of humankind has had it's uneducated or superiority genocidal mistakes.
As others have said. It is complex. It is ok to work towards kindness, but your demeanor here when someone disagrees with you and then way your posts seem condescending does not seem to show that.

 

[corran horn]

...your demeanor here when someone disagrees with you and then way your posts seem condescending does not seem to show that.

Your 'define native' and 'define American' is of course being pedantic.

Personally I think it's pretty damn condescending to the native peoples to do a calculus on the devastation wrought on their cultures and act like that cost was a worthwhile one given that eventually there'd be a nebulous 'advance religious, womens, racial, lgbt human rights' return a couple hundred years later.

And it doesn't mean 'you dont like the united states, you hate all its history, you dont like the flag flying around the parks' to realize that. Just like nobody demanded they bulldoze the entire Jungle Cruise to make changes Disney feels are now appropriate.

 

[rylouisbo]

Your 'define native' and 'define American' is of course being pedantic.

Personally I think it's pretty damn condescending to the native peoples to do a calculus on the devastation wrought on their cultures and act like that cost was a worthwhile one given that eventually there'd be a nebulous 'advance religious, womens, racial, lgbt human rights' return a couple hundred years later.

And it doesn't mean 'you dont like the united states, you hate all its history, you dont like the flag flying around the parks' to realize that. Just like nobody demanded they bulldoze the entire Jungle Cruise to make changes Disney feels are now appropriate.

your thoughts are contradicotory

colonialism is all bad and can have nothing good said about it

but the united states, a product of colonialism, can be good? cognitive dissonance

the united states would then be an example of something good coming from colonialism...

 

[MisterPenguin]

Define Native, and define "American" at that time. There were wars and colonizing each other of tribes. No one I saw has stated any were better than others. All of humankind has had it's uneducated or superiority genocidal mistakes.
As others have said. It is complex. It is ok to work towards kindness, but your demeanor here when someone disagrees with you and then way your posts seem condescending does not seem to show that.

"They did it too" is a morally bankrupt excuse to justify the sins of the past and to shrug off responsibility to make amends in the present.

You want kindness? It begins with recognizing abuse and apologizing. It begins with recognizing if one or one's family or one's "race" benefited off the backs of a repressed minority and seeking equity if not reparations.

Kindness begins with recognizing continuing disrespect and acknowledging it's racist and changing it.

 

[MisterPenguin]

your thoughts are contradicotory

colonialism is all bad and can have nothing good said about it

but the united states, a product of colonialism, can be good? cognitive dissonance

the united states would then be an example of something good coming from colonialism...

Thank God for all that slavery!!

 

[Sue_Vongello]

I just want to make this statement to add to the framework of the conversation:

I think the problem is how we define being inclusive in a theme park context, essentially a place where millions come with a wide range of backgrounds and beliefs.

I think some people say to be inclusive every single item in the park must be representative of all nationalities and free of offense to every single possible group. That’s where the “slippery slope” conversation comes in because if that’s the premise it’s doomed to fail.

I think the more accurate way to define inclusion in the theme park context is not to change every attraction or every single thing to ensure no offense is ever given but to offer more and a variety of options that cater to everyone.

I go back to my dinner party analogy - if I invited people with dietary restrictions I would not make the entire dinner around their restrictions but I would make sure there were plenty of options that were available to them.

I think that’s the better approach. Offer more varied options to ensure everyone feels included which is a joyful exercise because your making these additions out of love - don’t change everything because your worried your going to offend some group or some person because then you’re making decisions out of fear.

Everyone should feel welcome and everyone should feel included but not every attraction has to appeal to every person.

 

[celluloid]

"They did it too" is a morally bankrupt excuse to justify the sins of the past and to shrug off responsibility to make amends in the present.

You want kindness? It begins with recognizing abuse and apologizing. It begins with recognizing if one or one's family or one's "race" benefited off the backs of a repressed minority and seeking equity if not reparations.

Kindness begins with recognizing continuing disrespect and acknowledging it's racist and changing it.

Not morally bankrupt. Not "they." We. We did it too is the mindset to be reflexive. There is a difference. Again. Work to be better. It can start with kindness in how you treat others who not only look differently, but think diferently. When they are kind to you. The "you want kindness?" Was just posted by you again with a demeaning argumentative tone.
Kindness begins with many acts. I have yet to see anyone condone hating or enslaving others.

I am grateful for the government, but I want little of it as possible to maintain freedom. That does not make me anti government. Not sure why you attacked the poster as he or she was for enslavement.

 

[corran horn]