Jungle Cruise Re-Imagining

[rylouisbo]

I’m not about to argue with you about whose definition of racism is correct. My point still stands: some people do regard elements of the ride as racist, whether or not you agree with them.

There’s certainly a debate to be had about China and Disney, but your bringing it up here feels somewhat like deflection.

yea some people do regard elements of everything/anything as racist. if your logic is that a few people dont like something so therefore its racist because they consider it racist then literally nothing is safe as a few people could find literally anything racist or offensive. thats a horrible standard.

honestly why are you stopping at jungle cruise? Dumbo rides should be removed. Peter Pan rides should be removed. their moves are offensive to some. Pirates of the carribean should be removed, its a ride about pirates stealing and destroying a city, how is that not offensive? country bear jamboree should be removed as its uses offensive stereotypes. Most of EPCOT is just profiting off of sterotypes of foreign cultures. why are pixar movies safe? the pixar ceo was abusing people so those movies should be cancelled. blah blah

also its not deflection its an example directly related to Disney's reaction to racism. where in one instance disney pretends to care about a super minor "racist" thing while at the same time not caring about working with china as they have state sponsored racism.

 

[_caleb]

I started realizing that if we keep cowtowing to each person wanting inclusion then there is gonna need to be a lot of interesting if not unusual things. The haunted mansion is gonna need representation from every race and body type. If that is the case will we see a trans ghost some day?

I don’t think the announced changes are example of Disney “cowtowing to each person wanting inclusion.” In the case of Jungle Cruise, we’re talking about Disney getting rid of a handful of sight gags that make fun of indigenous people for being backwards, primitive, and foolish. There aren’t a lot of these around the parks, but the few that exist will likely be changed.

What would a trans ghost look like?

 

[networkpro]

Thanks for the history lesson? I'm not sure why you posted this in reply to what I said? Also, if you meant to reply to someone else's post, I don't think anyone is debating the truth of what you said, merely saying the Trader Sam (or Chief Namee) is a Marc Davis cartoony characterization of a Southeast Asian person, because at that point in the ride you are on the Mekong (formerly Irrawaddy) river. If anyone chooses not to see that then they have some reflecting to do. But really I don't want to get into it, because I know I'm not changing anyone's mind if they don't actively want to shift their perspective.

Having to remind another adult that saying what you think can be imprudent is a waste of time and effort. If they are willing to risk offending people and potentially embroiling themselves in situations that may prove to socially, economically or even physically harmful to them, then they should be willing to endure the negative interactions and consequences of their decision to speak freely. These posts are all opinions in an open forum that vanish when you turn off the screen.

 

[_caleb]

yea some people do regard elements of everything/anything as racist. if your logic is that a few people dont like something so therefore its racist because they consider it racist then literally nothing is safe as a few people could find literally anything racist or offensive. thats a horrible standard.

honestly why are you stopping at jungle cruise? Dumbo rides should be removed. Peter Pan rides should be removed. their moves are offensive to some. Pirates of the carribean should be removed, its a ride about pirates stealing and destroying a city, how is that not offensive? country bear jamboree should be removed as its uses offensive stereotypes. Most of EPCOT is just profiting off of sterotypes of foreign cultures. why are pixar movies safe? the pixar ceo was abusing people so those movies should be cancelled. blah blah

also its not deflection its an example directly related to Disney's reaction to racism. where in one instance disney pretends to care about a super minor "racist" thing while at the same time not caring about working with china as they have state sponsored racism.

Maybe I’m misreading your posts, but you seem to be approaching this seeing only the extremes. Who regards elements of everything/anything as racist? I haven’t seen anyone here expressing that perspective.

And nobody is saying that Disney has been inundated with complaints from offended people. Disney is proactively making changes to racially insensitive things in the parks so that all guests feel welcome. It’s pretty clear that you don’t like the changes, but Disney decided that they wanted to make them.

I will suggest that you are trivializing the “offense” here. The representation of groups of people who have historically been taken advantage of is not the same as someone not liking pirates.

You are right about Disney’s dealings in China despite civil rights abuses. But that being wrong doesn’t make the Jungle Cruise changes nothing.

 

[rylouisbo]

"Disney getting rid of a handful of sight gags that make fun of indigenous people for being backwards, primitive, and foolish"

i think youre confusing poking fun at historical situations with racism. The ride is also poking fun at the colonists ineptitude. i missed the part of the ride where they describe the indigenous people as backwards. if anything the ride shows the people "visiting" as foolish and native tribes are indeed factually primitive by todays standards.

 

[Dutch Inn '76]

I just think its ironic that they're switching out goofy-looking brown people with goofy-looking white people, being chased up a pole. That and think of the poor objectified rhino! They should take him out and replace him with Redd the Pirate. LOL.

 

[James J]

No I'm not. see Stephen Fry quote on people being offended. You should be ashamed with yourself. But its not like Splash redo or this will actually get built lol.

No Sir, I'm definitely not ashamed to know the difference between humour and racism. What a truly puzzling thing to say.

 

[James J]

I just think its ironic that they're switching out goofy-looking brown people with goofy-looking white people, being chased up a pole. That and think of the poor objectified rhino! They should take him out and replace him with Redd the Pirate. LOL.

As has been posted previously, look at the concept art closely. Only two out of the five are white.

 

[_caleb]

i think youre confusing poking fun at historical situations with racism. The ride is also poking fun at the colonists ineptitude. i missed the part of the ride where they describe the indigenous people as backwards. if anything the ride shows the people "visiting" as foolish and native tribes are indeed factually primitive by todays standards.

I think I understand your perspective. You’re saying that as long as everyone is being made fun of, it should be ok.

I disagree with this. I think it’s mean for a stronger group to make fun of a weaker group (even if they also poke fun at themselves) in a way that perpetuates that weaker/stronger relationship. This is especially true when the “teasing” focuses on physical characteristics, cultural values, or their history of exploitation, which is what I see in some of the Jungle Cruise scenes.

 

[CaptainNicko]

I started realizing that if we keep cowtowing to each person wanting inclusion then there is gonna need to be a lot of interesting if not unusual things. The haunted mansion is gonna need representation from every race and body type. If that is the case will we see a trans ghost some day?

I'm curious... How do you know you're not already seeing a trans ghost in there now?

 

[rylouisbo]

I think I understand your perspective. You’re saying that as long as everyone is being made fun of, it should be ok.

I disagree with this. I think it’s mean for a stronger group to make fun of a weaker group (even if they also poke fun at themselves) in a way that perpetuates that weaker/stronger relationship. This is especially true when the “teasing” focuses on physical characteristics, cultural values, or their history of exploitation, which is what I see in some of the Jungle Cruise scenes.

no thats not what i'm saying, what i'm saying is that youre conflating humor based on historical events with overt racism aimed at systemically oppressing people. you have to understand the difference. all that does is make people question legitimate claims of racism because everyone is shouting racism at things that are not racist.

see, now you just declared the natives as "weaker" thats just something you decided... the ride does not say they are weaker actually the ride, in many ways, shows they are stronger... so why would you call them weaker?

what you see is not reality then because none of what you are describing is what most people see when riding jungle cruise.

 

[SirLink]

No Sir, I'm definitely not ashamed to know the difference between humour and racism. What a truly puzzling thing to say.

All this "wokeness" has distorted your own timeline:

As a Brit myself, you seem to be getting self-deprecating jokes mixed up with mild racism. Wildly different types of remarks, and the latter may well hurt and offend family members.

I was commentating on the statement in bold, regarding to going to read Stephen Fry comments about people offending people and the nonsense of that. But the difference between my family and your family is mine can have a joke no one is offended.

People should be able to say what they want without needing to be tiptoeing on eggshells around anyone. If your offended by what I have said ... I don't care.

 

[_caleb]

no thats not what i'm saying, what i'm saying is that youre conflating humor based on historical events with overt racism aimed at systemically oppressing people. you have to understand the difference. all that does is make people question legitimate claims of racism because everyone is shouting racism at things that are not racist.

see, now you just declared the natives as "weaker" thats just something you decided... the ride does not say they are weaker actually the ride, in many ways, shows they are stronger... so why would you call them weaker?

what you see is not reality then because none of what you are describing is what most people see when riding jungle cruise.

“Weaker” is a reference to the imbalance in the power dynamic between the two groups. The attraction shows two major groups- the colonizers who invaded the space and the indigenous who had no say in the matter.

Which of the two do you think the designers of the ride most identified with? Who do you think White kids in visiting the parks today will most identify with?

You seem to think you have a handle on what is racist and what isn’t. Would you care to explain?

 

[rylouisbo]

“Weaker” is a reference to the imbalance in the power dynamic between the two groups. The attraction shows two major groups- the colonizers who invaded the space and the indigenous who had no say in the matter.

Which of the two do you think the designers of the ride most identified with? Who do you think White kids in visiting the parks today will most identify with?

You seem to think you have a handle on what is racist and what isn’t. Would you care to explain?

i grew up riding that ride as white kid and never once identified with random dudes in the jungle lol you dont need to "identify" with someone/something in every aspect of your life.

and no you referred to them as weaker because you see them as weaker, if anything that just shows how you think. i've never looked at the natives and thought weaker...

 

[Ellen Ripley]

i grew up riding that ride as white kid and never once identified with random dudes in the jungle lol you dont need to "identify" with someone/something in every aspect of your life.

and no you referred to them as weaker because you see them as weaker, if anything that just shows how you think. i've never looked at the natives and thought weaker...

Unconscious Bias: How It Affects Us More Than We Know

Even when we say that we are very open-minded and not prejudiced, we categorize and stereotype people. This is why we need to examine our biases and be mindful of our hidden prejudices and the way they manifest themselves in words and actions.

www.forbes.com

 

[rylouisbo]

Unconscious Bias: How It Affects Us More Than We Know

Even when we say that we are very open-minded and not prejudiced, we categorize and stereotype people. This is why we need to examine our biases and be mindful of our hidden prejudices and the way they manifest themselves in words and actions.

www.forbes.com

yes, unconscious bias describes a person calling the natives weaker. subconsciously making them inferior compared to others.

also, if we are calling stereotypes as biased and even racist then better tear down all disney and start over

 

[JustInTime]

This refurb will take a shorter amount of time compared to the average "major" refurb schedule. I could easily see it being started and ended in the year at WDW. This will start, and likely end, before splash.

Any word on Sam?

 

[_caleb]

i grew up riding that ride as white kid and never once identified with random dudes in the jungle lol you dont need to "identify" with someone/something in every aspect of your life.

and no you referred to them as weaker because you see them as weaker, if anything that just shows how you think. i've never looked at the natives and thought weaker...

Thanks for responding, but I’m not sure you understand what I’m saying. Maybe you do and we just disagree.

In storytelling, like in a movie or a theme park attraction, the audience identifies with characters and “types” in the story. The “story” of the Jungle Cruise is told from a perspective that romanticizes the experience of exploring the jungle. Unless you’re not paying attention or simply cannot understand the story being told, you’re identifying with someone‘s perspective in the story.

The idea of power dynamics is not something I invented. It’s a way to describe the relationship between two groups. It also explains why some people might be comforted and entertained by uncharitable depictions of groups that have historically been taken advantage of, abused, exploited, or hurt.

I don’t appreciate your attempts to explain ”how I really think,” please don’t do that. I am genuinely interested in discussion about the topic, but only if it’s done in good faith.

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

Essentially the same point I've been making.

This whole situation feels like people mad simply because anything at all is changing, not because they actually believe it's going to make the ride worse.

Personally I love the Jungle cruise as is, though I will admit I also love the Jingle Cruise holiday skins. However, leaving politics aside, and the question of if it is a good idea to touch any of the WDW original rides, i come at if from this perspective. There has to be an affirmative REASON to make a change to a ride, especially at a time where it appears budgets and spending are a major concern to Disney (as it is to almost every company right now.) So if the argument can't be made that the changes being made will make the ride BETTER, why expend the funds for this project, when they could be dedicated to other projects that will either A) add new attractions/material to the park or B) improve existing rides. If the argument is that it won't effect the overall ride that much (based on its the skippers and jokes that make the ride not the scenes) or that people will just ignore or forget about the changes soon after they are made (the pole climber figures for example) then is it really a change worth making?

 

[_caleb]

Hey, @Kram Sacul, what’s the deal with you responding to every one of my posts in this thread with a laughing emoji? Why not engage? What do you find so funny? Use your words!