Is Walt Disney Imagineering dead?

[FerretAfros]

I've frequently said that many of WDI's recent projects are fundamentally flawed concepts that are executed incredibly well. For example, while Carsland is expansive and well-detailed, it's not an especially compelling in-person experience because it's just like the movie location that I can experience much cheaper from the comfort of my couch. With the quality of products that WDI is turning out, the problem doesn't lie with the designers.

Similarly, the problem doesn't lie with the budgets, which are often orders of magnitude higher than industry standards. WDW recently opened a 2-attraction land that cost over $1 billion, and has 2 rollercoasters on the way that will both cost around $500 million, all of which have capacity issues. These prices are absurd, and while the experiences are enjoyable, WDI simply does not provide any real value for the money spent.

I think that part of problem, ironically, is the emphasis on storytelling. Linear "storytelling" as we tends to think of it is a mostly modern concept for themed entertainment. Yes, the classic attractions hint at possible backstories, but it was seldom explained and rarely mattered for enjoyment of the experience. Guests could pick up on the details and create their own individual story for what was going on. So many recent additions, from turkey leg stands to E-tickets, have overwrought ham-fisted backstories that constantly remind your that you're in a theme park rather than a real place

Guests are smart, and enjoy connecting the dots on their own. Leaving the details to the individual guests allows a level of interaction far beyond what recent high-tech attractions offer, and creates those coveted memories that Disney loves to advertise. If anything, it seems that WDI, its management, and Disney's upper management don't believe that guests are clever enough to discover and create their own stories, and would rather be spoonfed one that Disney created. The problem isn't with the rank-and-file people at WDI, it's with the people who make the high level decisions, who have no faith in their audience

 

[DanielBB8]

Disney attractions have been better than ever. There’s nothing wrong with storytelling in the attractions. I’m not sure what you expect from a 5 minutes or less ride, but Disney packs a lot of detail in every second. If you want lots of story, there’s plenty of attractions that offer them. The classics are still around. The railroad, Mark Twain, Lincoln. They were updated after renovations. To the extent that you don’t see it, maybe pay attention.

 

[kap91]

IMO they have simply changed their focus. When you look at the time from Pirates, the early days of Epcot all the way to the opening of Disney Sea you see them focused on pushing the boundaries of storytelling of an attraction. Today they have shifted and are pushing the boundaries of spectacle. They are still experimenting, but in different ways.

It's hard to argue with the logic. Today's world is highly focused on style over substance. Look at everything from popular culture to our politics. It is all about how they are saying it over what they are saying. It's no surprise to me that WDI has gone this way.

Pooh's Hunny Hunt, Mystic Manor and Shanghai Pirates in my mind are modern masterpieces. Advances in attraction storytelling are not taking the leaps they were before, but that is in part because it has matured. Refinements are still being made but not as noticeable. Disney made great leaps in a short period of time, but you can't expect the art form to continue at such a pace. The same thing happened in film. The experimentation that took place in the early days of filmmaking were astounding. As it matured, techniques were refined. Filmmaking felt to many like it was stagnating. It wasn't. It was simply not advancing as fast as it used to. Filmmaking still is even if every movie seems like a sequel or super hero movie. Attraction design is also progressing, but the focus right now is on the spectacle over the techniques. They are still advancing it, but not at the same pace or in the same manor as it once was.

I will say that the level of quality, spectacle, and realism possible these days is kind of hamstringing because that level of craftsmanship becomes the expectation for everything - except it’s enormously expensive. Thus it becomes harder to experiment, harder to build longer form attractions, harder to make artistic leaps because the design dogma has been pushed into a narrow corner. I think eventually that might change but certainly right now when hyper-Real, hyper-immersive entertainment is the trend it’s not going to happen soon.

 

[brb1006]

I'm inclined to disagree. While they'll put in the money, they don't respect theme or storytelling anymore than current management. They also contract WDI to design their attractions and seeing as I have no faith in them now, even with a large budget, I couldn't get behind it.

If you don't believe me, just check out this joke of an attraction in Port Discovery at Tokyo DisneySea. It has no place to be in the location it is and it offers absolutely nothing but the option to see Nemo and friends.




We'll see with Galaxy's Edge, but even with an endless budget I don't believe WDI could pull off the brilliance of attractions like Pirates of the Caribbean anymore. I'll even go out and say that Mystic Manor, one of the better attractions they've designed lately, has a lot of problems and they're not all due to budget. The character design on that attraction alone is atrocious and the way the ride vehicle stops for every scene is not how a story should be told in dark ride form.

Besides that, really love Tokyo Disneyland Electrical Parade Dreamlights and their daytime parades including their season parades.

 

[DanielBB8]

Guests are smart, and enjoy connecting the dots on their own. Leaving the details to the individual guests allows a level of interaction far beyond what recent high-tech attractions offer, and creates those coveted memories that Disney loves to advertise. If anything, it seems that WDI, its management, and Disney's upper management don't believe that guests are clever enough to discover and create their own stories, and would rather be spoonfed one that Disney created. The problem isn't with the rank-and-file people at WDI, it's with the people who make the high level decisions, who have no faith in their audience

I think its the opposite, you’re asking for Disney to spoonfeed you the story because you’re complaining it isn’t enough and can’t see it in the attractions.

 

[TROR]

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by good Story? What exactly is it that you’re looking for that you’re not finding? If find it interesting that you cite Story as specifically the thing that’s lacking and point to the past for examples when attractions from the past are notoriously rather light on explicit story and rich premises (though are masterful at storytelling itself). Most modern attractions actually have significantly more backstory.

They have significantly more backstory. Exactly. Why? What's the point? Do I need to know the new redhead on Pirates is named Redd? No, I don't. It's meaningless backstory. What I care about is what does the scene itself tell me without saying anything. With Pirates of the Caribbean, all the town's people were dressed in pajamas telling us that they were ripped from their beds. Now, however, the nobles are all dressed up like French aristocrats (despite it being a Spanish colony) which raises so many questions. For instance, why are there French nobles in a Spanish colony? Were they at a ball? Did they have to go home from the ball to get the items they're giving to the pirates? Why are the nobles even at the auction in the first place? Why didn't the pirates just plunder their homes and take what they wanted?

I've frequently said that many of WDI's recent projects are fundamentally flawed concepts that are executed incredibly well. For example, while Carsland is expansive and well-detailed, it's not an especially compelling in-person experience because it's just like the movie location that I can experience much cheaper from the comfort of my couch. With the quality of products that WDI is turning out, the problem doesn't lie with the designers.

Similarly, the problem doesn't lie with the budgets, which are often orders of magnitude higher than industry standards. WDW recently opened a 2-attraction land that cost over $1 billion, and has 2 rollercoasters on the way that will both cost around $500 million, all of which have capacity issues. These prices are absurd, and while the experiences are enjoyable, WDI simply does not provide any real value for the money spent.

I think that part of problem, ironically, is the emphasis on storytelling. Linear "storytelling" as we tends to think of it is a mostly modern concept for themed entertainment. Yes, the classic attractions hint at possible backstories, but it was seldom explained and rarely mattered for enjoyment of the experience. Guests could pick up on the details and create their own individual story for what was going on. So many recent additions, from turkey leg stands to E-tickets, have overwrought ham-fisted backstories that constantly remind your that you're in a theme park rather than a real place

Guests are smart, and enjoy connecting the dots on their own. Leaving the details to the individual guests allows a level of interaction far beyond what recent high-tech attractions offer, and creates those coveted memories that Disney loves to advertise. If anything, it seems that WDI, its management, and Disney's upper management don't believe that guests are clever enough to discover and create their own stories, and would rather be spoonfed one that Disney created. The problem isn't with the rank-and-file people at WDI, it's with the people who make the high level decisions, who have no faith in their audience

Great post, specifically the highlighted part. The cost of Toy Story land is incredibly high for what's actually coming. While we can blame management for wanting to put it in seemingly every park, WDI is still responsible for the inconsistencies in scale between everything in the land.

I think its the opposite, you’re asking for Disney to spoonfeed you the story because you’re complaining it isn’t enough and can’t see it in the attractions.

Because I love Pirates of the Caribbean and it's on my mind today, I'll keep using it as an example.

The story of the attraction is pirates loot and plunder a town for gold. Easy, peasy, lemon-squeezy. It's not a hard story to grasp. But it's not the only story. If it was just nothing but pirates looting and plundering a town, it'd be so dull. Pirates is a combination of little stories that all tie together. You have the story of the young women and old maids who have been dragged out of bed to be sold off as brides. You have the story of the pirates who died while playing a game of chess because they were locked in a stalemate (at WDW). You have the story of the redheaded wench who went on to live a pirate's life as seen in the painting "Portrait of Things to Come."

Point being, none of these stories are explicit or obvious. But they're details that increase the story. They add depth and layer to the attraction. Modern day WDI never would've thought of any of this, they just would have had the pirates sacking the town and that'd be all.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

I don't disagree that WDI lacks talent in some key areas. For example, the organization is completely incapable of designing and delivering any kind of reasonable experience related to its vision of the future, whatever that is.

However, I'm not sure I agree that storytelling has diminished at WDI. It's certainly different, but not because it's flawed, since very few things they've done have been perfect. For me the last 10 years or so have been exceptional for WDI in general - this is coming from someone who has followed Disney theme parks for 40+ years - in part because of the unprecedented and steady rate of high quality new attractions, parks, hotels, etc around the globe. For the first time in at least a decade I interested in visiting WDW because of all the cool new things they're rolling out in Florida.

 

[Curious Constance]

I've frequently said that many of WDI's recent projects are fundamentally flawed concepts that are executed incredibly well. For example, while Carsland is expansive and well-detailed, it's not an especially compelling in-person experience because it's just like the movie location that I can experience much cheaper from the comfort of my couch. With the quality of products that WDI is turning out, the problem doesn't lie with the designers.

Similarly, the problem doesn't lie with the budgets, which are often orders of magnitude higher than industry standards. WDW recently opened a 2-attraction land that cost over $1 billion, and has 2 rollercoasters on the way that will both cost around $500 million, all of which have capacity issues. These prices are absurd, and while the experiences are enjoyable, WDI simply does not provide any real value for the money spent.

I think that part of problem, ironically, is the emphasis on storytelling. Linear "storytelling" as we tends to think of it is a mostly modern concept for themed entertainment. Yes, the classic attractions hint at possible backstories, but it was seldom explained and rarely mattered for enjoyment of the experience. Guests could pick up on the details and create their own individual story for what was going on. So many recent additions, from turkey leg stands to E-tickets, have overwrought ham-fisted backstories that constantly remind your that you're in a theme park rather than a real place

Guests are smart, and enjoy connecting the dots on their own. Leaving the details to the individual guests allows a level of interaction far beyond what recent high-tech attractions offer, and creates those coveted memories that Disney loves to advertise. If anything, it seems that WDI, its management, and Disney's upper management don't believe that guests are clever enough to discover and create their own stories, and would rather be spoonfed one that Disney created. The problem isn't with the rank-and-file people at WDI, it's with the people who make the high level decisions, who have no faith in their audience

Ferret! You never cease to amaze me. This is spot on. They really do have to beat the story over your head at this point. I actually remember reading an article where an imagineer said that guests don't want to have to think on vacation so they come up with stories so they don't have to. Huh!?
They can't even develop a teddy bear to sell without making up a story that it's Mickey's traveling bear and he has a girlfriend and best friend. .

 

[TwilightZone]

I'd say imagineering has not always been fully great due to budgets and what not.
Remember opening day tomorrowland with the bathroom of the future?
Now if budget was not an issue, we would have the ultimate disney experience.
I dream of westcot and disneysea (california).
And of course good/decent your imagination.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

The problem isn't with the rank-and-file people at WDI, it's with the people who make the high level decisions, who have no faith in their audience

Why do you think that is?

 

[RandySavage]

As is often stated, the difference between Good & Great is in the details.

Gen III WDI has been creating some excellent stuff. But there has simultaneously been a seemingly institutionalized loss of attention or knowledge of little details in certain areas. I often find myself looking at a project that is 90% well done, but misses some smaller aspects that could have easily been done right - had the knowledge or care been there. This is extremely frustrating - like tripping at the finish line of a marathon.

Near the top of my littany of "little stuff they once did right, but miss now" is WDI's incorpration of extremely overt, modern displays into areas/attractions that are set in the pre-digital eras:

They even go out of their way to replace perfectly fine analog displays (like those at the Haunted Mansion) with LCDs, spending money to make a place less immersive - their favorite word.

There are many other similar little things (e.g. designing custom exit signs to fit the environment; using illustrations in place of photos in period areas - particularly on menus/QSR venues; using authentic materials when possible in place of shaped plastic, such as "wooden" roof shingles) that seem to have become lost arts to WDI now.

Again, these little details add up to the difference between good & great, IMO.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

The issue I have isn't IPs. It's the lack of charm. WDI seems to want to de-charm all the charm that does exist from decades past courtesy of WED Enterprises geniuses. I want more chintzy slapped-together dark rides that leave you incredulous and charmed.

 

[RandySavage]

And I'll add that a majority of my ire about Disney Parks & Resorts - and there's plenty of it - is not due to WDI not being as perfect as I'd like them to be, but due to (a) the Company's executive team who make the big 'creative' decisions that really tee me off (Frozen in Norway; goodbye Great Movie Ride; modern mid-rise hotels) and (b) Ops Leadership, who run the parks much less appealingly than the Walties did (monetizing every inch; over-bright lighting; mass merchandising; removing curbs; removing mature trees; etc, etc).

 

[Deleted member 107043]

As is often stated, the difference between Good & Great is in the details.

Gen III WDI has been creating some excellent stuff. But there has simultaneously been a seemingly institutionalized loss of attention or knowledge of little details in certain areas. I often find myself looking at a project that is 90% well done, but misses some smaller aspects that could have easily been done right - had the knowledge or care been there. This is extremely frustrating - like tripping at the finish line of a marathon.

Near the top of my littany of "little stuff they once did right, but miss now" is WDI's incorpration of extremely overt, modern displays into areas/attractions that are set in the pre-digital eras:
View attachment 271143

They even go out of their way to replace perfectly fine analog displays (like those at the Haunted Mansion) with LCDs, spending money to make a place less immersive - their favorite word.

There are many other similar little things (e.g. designing custom exit signs to fit the environment; using illustrations in place of photos in period areas - particularly on menus/QSR venues; using authentic materials when possible in place of shaped plastic, such as "wooden" roof shingles) that seem to have become lost arts to WDI now.

Again, these little details add up to the difference between good & great, IMO.

Great points. One thing that bugs me now are the cast member costumes. Disney used to have some pretty stylish and expensive looking garments for their front line employees. I remember in the years following Big Thunder's opening the staff there were outfitted with genuine Stetson hats to wear. I also recall the Matterhorn cast and their attraction specific lederhosen. Most ride operators at DL look pretty sloppy now.

 

[RandySavage]

Great points. One thing that bugs me now are the cast member costumes. Disney used to have some pretty stylish and expensive looking garments for their front line employees. I remember in the years following Big Thunder's opening the staff there were outfitted with genuine Stetson hats to wear. I also recall the Matterhorn cast and their attraction specific lederhosen. Most ride operators at DL look pretty sloppy now.

Was just thinking the exact same thing!

A look at some main street costume designs of yore:

 

[Kiwiduck]

The character design on that attraction alone is atrocious

Surely you don't mean Albert? What type of monster isn't charmed by Albert!!

 

[Disney Irish]

I think some of you are putting too much stock into the intelligence of the average US guest today.

The US population today is hyper focused on immediate gratification, the big payoff.... They aren't interesting in creating their own stories. In the era of FB, Instagram, SnapChat, etc., the population has access to stories at their fingers with no additional thought. So why would we expect them to want to create their own while on riding an attraction at a Disney park.

So Disney/WDI is just creating attractions for the population today, as opposed to the population of yesterday. So if you want to blame anyone, blame the population at large.

 

[TROR]

Surely you don't mean Albert? What type of monster isn't charmed by Albert!!

Albert's not too bad like Lord Mystic here, but I think the attraction would greatly benefit from just having a far more realistic look in general. Have Lord Mystic, Albert, the suits of armor, etc. all have realistic proportions at the very least.

 

[BrianLo]

Can you please elaborate on some of the great storytelling in Pandora and Cars Land? Also please elaborate on what's great about a bunch of bad CG and Johnny Depp projections for Pirates in Shanghai. Mystic Manor does have a good story, but its story telling method is what's the problem bad.

I think the Pirates experience cannot be quite encapsulated on a video. Videos of video screens are always somewhat problematic.

I also will argue that Mystic Manor is a nearly perfect attraction. The pacing works, you only start and stop really for the start and end scene. Unlike another attraction with terrible pacing that mostly lingers in the mid section *cough* Gringott's *cough*.

For a recent attraction that doesn't nail you over the head with the "story", an Eisner era problem, I think Grizzly Runaway Mine Trains works very well.

 

[Kiwiduck]

View attachment 271161

Albert's not too bad like Lord Mystic here, but I think the attraction would greatly benefit from just having a far more realistic look in general. Have Lord Mystic, Albert, the suits of armor, etc. all have realistic proportions at the very least.

I like their whimsical appearance but I can see your point of view.