Interesting JHM article

Snoballego

Active Member
I see his main criticism about the lofty WDW fanatic's standards that people place.

But two counter-arguments...

Annual Passes are generally intended for people who might be considered immediate neighbors of the theme parks. Annual Passes are a sign of being a good neighbor and giving the local visitors a reasonably priced open door (year round). It can give them a sense of ownership or pride about the park. Instead of seeing the WDW only for being an industry. For those who are AP Holders that aren't considered neighbors (more than a day trip)...It is a commitment to visit the resort and stay at the resort multiple times a year which could include a commitment to occupying hotel rooms.

The criticism could also be very easily placed on the same medium that he is using to preach his message. A world of information (detailed infortmation) is now available at everyone's finger tips. The internet. I don't think it is a bad thing. For every post about "peeling paint" at WDW...There are 2,000 stories and pictures of something beautiful at the parks or a family enjoying themselves at WDW. The public now has access (only a few clicks away) to much more detailed information (good or bad) about everything.

In Conclusion...

The random visitor, who reads online or has an open ear to hear these gossipy APs, will always know that he can visit 6 Flags or anywhere else and know that with all of the faults that we find at WDW....It is still head and shoulders above everything else.

-Snoballego
 

General Grizz

New Member
I don't understand the article.

First of all, he groups all Annual Passholders together - mistake. Not every Annual Passholder is the same. Demons running through the parks? Um... okay...

Honestly, I think if it weren't for annual passholders, Disney would be cutting back more than it does. A great percentage of annual passholders notice changes (let's say... oh... the slow removal of live entertainment). If these groups didn't write to Disney against the removal of entertainers, then a big chunk of what defines Disney would be gone. And it's safe to say those without annual passes would find these groups delighting, based on the audience member, of course.

Or in the case of the lack of paint coats, if certain Annual Passholders didn't complain, management might not be painting. ...which might leave the regular visitor without a pass (who likely took more of his expenses out to pay for the trip) to notice some of the decay, concluding that the park has lowered its quality standards and consider other options for vacation investment. (Of course, Ouitmet just shut most of the attractions down and had the services rebuilt and repaint them, so it's probably no longer an issue).

I think the article needs to accuse less and explain more - good examples of how Annual Passholders have hurt Disney. I could only find one: the Enchanted Tiki Room, which is only the author's opinion. (If it weren't from the pressure of fans, it would still be rotting and decaying now, if not turned into McDonalds). If anything, those same AP holders have been asking the company to open up new attractions in what has been cutback (see: Tomorrowland). . .

Lastly, he is attacking the passholders, not Disney for offering the passes. If he believes them to be harmful, he'd be better off writing to Disney or suggesting they end these ticket sales.

No matter WHO enters the park, I think it's in good hands anyway. Matt Ouimet is opening up to both the diehards AND the infrequent visitors. He caters to both with quality, and that's what I care about.
 

Captain Hank

Well-Known Member
Since DL is geared towards a local market, wouldn't dramatically increasing the price of AP's alienate their largest consumer base?
 

Enderikari

Well-Known Member
Wow, mark this down folks.... The first Jim Hill article I agree with, in spirit. However, I do think that this rationale applies better to WDW than to DL. DL relies a lot more on the funds coming from Annual Passholders, therefore it must bend over backwards to placate these "Disney-Philes." At WDW, there is no need to placate the AP's, because there is so much business coming in from other areas. As a result, things that Annual Passholders want to see (like Haunted Mansion Holiday, or taking away Stitch's Great Escape) won't come to pass. That is what I see is the biggest difference between DL and WDW.
Believe me, I know exactly what Jim Hill is talking about, for once. Annual Passholder's have an ego issue, and when they start off every conversation with "I'm an Annual Passholder, and I don't like Stitch's Great Escape, it should be done any with." That shows a certain amount of brass cojones. Personally, I think the park belongs to first time visitors, who see Mickey for the first time and simply light up. Who walk down Main Street and envision what it must have been like in the old days. Not the Annual Passholder who is sitting taking pictures of some chipped paint (that will be taken care of, but not before its plastered over websites to show people how retentive the AP can be)
 

Aurora_25

Well-Known Member
Honestly, I don't agree with that article. We are DVC members and new passholders and honestly, I don't believe that "we" are the problem at all....Then again, I am not one to write to disney about a coat of paint or anything like that.

I will have to say that I agree to what General Grizz said. If the Annual passholders don't say something about the way Disney looks or the shows that are the best- how will the average person who goes to Disney maybe once or twice in their life ever really see the quality that we all know is Disney.
 

Sloan

Well-Known Member
false premise

In my opinion, there is a false premise for the article that makes it fail as poorly thought out and reasoned. Specifically, it is suggsted that Disney takes a negative financial impact as a result of the passes. WAY too simple-minded an approach. I can tell you that most of the passholders I know of spend a TON of money @ Disney that might otherwise be spent elsewhere - shopping, high-end meals, resorts, etc.. The article seemingly ignores all of the money/profit to be made other than that at the gate, which would only be a small fraction of what we spend there whether using passes or not ...
 

wannab@dis

Well-Known Member
Enderikari said:
Wow, mark this down folks.... The first Jim Hill article I agree with, in spirit. .....
Believe me, I know exactly what Jim Hill is talking about, for once. ....

The article was not written by Jim Hill. Hence the reason you can actually read it and possibly the reason you (in spirit) agree with. :lol:

For me, I think the author hits on a couple of good points, but fails to make his case. The real issue with a Passholder is not the gate money, but the secondary money that is spent while in the parks on the tshirts, food and other purchases. Also, the Passholders may complain, but they are there more often and see the gradual changes, whether good or bad.
 

dox

New Member
In spirit, the article makes several valid points not only about AP holders but disney fanatics like ourselves. With respect to AP holders, Disney does take a bit of a financial hit during the busy times of the year. AP holders get deeper discounts at hotels, restaurants, early reservations for restaurants, etc. basically taking up a spot that a non passholder would take. I'm a non passholder and I recently tried to book a room during labor day weekend and had a hard time getting my first choice. Plus other than AAA i'm not getting much of a discount. Now whats unfair about the criticism of AP holders, is that come the week after labor day with the exception of a few weekends, things are essentially dead. And AP holders help to keep things financially afloat.

Some of the other criticism about pain peeling, etc. applies to all of us in the online community whether we are AP holders or not, the folks at Jim Hill included. I remember an old website by the name of Disney Blues, which was basically devoted to criticisms of WDW. If a light bulb was out anywhere on Main street, there they were with a photograph. After visiting Disney and finding myself critiquing every detail I never returned to that site, as it put a slight damper on my trip at times. All of us here are guilty of getting a bit too over the top in our criticisms and of comparing the idealized Disney of our youth with the Disney of today, and we need to be reminded to just rein it in a bit. Sometimes I wonder if some of you on this site really do love Disney based on some of your postings.

By the way Grizz, i think his critique of the Tiki Birds (@ DL I assume) has more to do with the fact that you have a deeply unpopular show with your average tourist, but the AP protests prob. led to this attraction being "plussed" rather than redone or a new attraction instead. I guess his point, which wasn't fleshed out, is that AP'ers and disneyphiles don't let disney change and grow but try to place pressure on them to maintain the status quo. Which goes back to the debate we always engage in other site (esp. in your threads -LOL) change v. status quo/"plussing".
 

MissM

Well-Known Member
What an angry and hate-filled article. I find it truly and needlessly nasty. It's not a point of view, it's a hostile rant.
-m
 

MommytoMJM

New Member
I didn't see anything in there about AP's (like us) who do nothing but rave about the joys of Disney, don't try to do every ride or show (we are often in the parks and only do one or two attractions and spend the rest of the time discovering, chatting with CM's or just enjoying the ambiance) admittedly, we don't have a lot of $$ to spend in the parks because of MJ's medical needs, but we try hard to give back in other ways (going out of our way to brighten CM's days, talk to managers about the awesome job the CM's are doing, picking up trash when we see it, etc it isn't much, but it is what we can do right now) if we did have any extra $$ at all, it would be spent at Dinsey!

ok, / rant
 

brich

New Member
My opinion... How can you possibly group all AP's in a single group. That in itself is ridiculous. I go once a year but go just under the expiration of my AP so I can get 2 trips on 1 AP. The last thing I do is go looking for bad show. My park experience and behavior as an AP is no different then when I purchased Hoppers.

As for those who spend everyday pointing out the chipped paint and bad show. I say a HUGE thank you. Obviously Disney isn't doing it and it's these little things that seperate Disney from the rest. Consider it Quality Control for free. And of course AP's aren't spending any money. :rolleyes: Even at reduced rates, the resorts do pretty good with AP guests. As do the restraunts and gift shops. I think the article was very thin. It had a pretty decent point but I don't feel it was backed up. :zipit:

Thanks for posting :snore: but I thought it was nothing more than an opinion one could find here on the boards... :D
 

wdwishes2005

New Member
Wow, is it physically possible for this guy to be any more of an idiot/jerk/insert naughty word here?

first

''First of all, I understand why so many people want to go to the parks. It is an escape from reality; a chance to explore one's childhood and escape the harsh reality of real life. A lot of the diehards go there an awful lot. There are websites devoted to every minutia of the parks that point out the exact times and locations that characters will show up, to pointing out the paint flaking off the wall two stories up on Main Street. All of this duly reported by the nearly daily visits of these annual passholder diehards.''

my butt. the only reason anyone would do that is to alert the CMs so they can make disney better. so what if passholders know what isn't right, if no one told the CMs, how would they know about it?

Well, to those people I say this: Get a life! You are no longer helping Disney, you are hurting it! Why? Because you cost the company more money then you put into its coffers. Not just in real dollars, but in your economic impact.

Annual passholders are not the end all and be all of Disney. But to hear them talk, they are. They are everywhere in the park, choking the fun out of it. I mean pity the poor, full paying, first time or once every few years visitor. They don't have a chance. They can't enjoy the park as there's a passholder in line in front of them and behind them talking about all the bad things at the park. Or, they explain to the infrequent visitor how to efficiently visit the park and not miss a single ride or show. Well, that might be okay, but if you follow their directions, you won't have any time just to discover things, after all you've been told by them what to do, where to look and what to pay attention to. Running around the park like some robot to get through every ride and show is not my cup of tea. I like to visit the park and enjoy the show.

first off, i have NEVER heard a fellow AP say anyhting negative about disney in front of other people. we cost the company more than we put in? Bull! I suppose APs don't ever eat at the parks, and of couse, they NEVER EVER buy pins, or any other merchandise for that matter.

next, so what if APs give advice? ive got several great tips from other APs.?

and once again that article is one big heaping pile of bull. APs are some of the nicest guests in the park. they don't destroy things, they fillow the rules, and if you strike up a conversation, you get to exchange really interesting rumors.
 

Hurricane

New Member
MommytoMJM said:
I didn't see anything in there about AP's (like us) who do nothing but rave about the joys of Disney, don't try to do every ride or show (we are often in the parks and only do one or two attractions and spend the rest of the time discovering, chatting with CM's or just enjoying the ambiance)


I think you're onto something. I just returned from 2 days at the world. On the first day my sister and I rode Soarin and then had dinner and watched illuminations. The next day we went to MGM, rode the backlot tour, Millionaire, and One Man's Dream and ate lunch in the park (LMA was rained out, the main reason we were there). In 2 days we went on 4 attractions and ate 2 meals. AP holders have the opportunity to take their time and not rush and get everything done (though in the off season I have done comprehensive trips through the parks) The article misses the point that some AP are like goodwill ambassadors.

PS MommytoMJ -- stop chatting with CMs and let them get back to work! ; ) jk
 

slappy magoo

Well-Known Member
Eh, he's probably just jealous because you can't make enough money writing for JHM to afford an annual pass. Oooooh, and look at that a "former Imagineer." Maybe one APer too many pointed out that this guy's work was slipshod compared to other Imagineers. Maybe? I don't know. Perhaps. Could be.

Seriously, though, he seems to be taking his own bias against APers and drawing a conclusion that they are therefore bad for business. Why? Because we wind up paying less per day? But the flip side is that, were it not for the APs many people would wind up going less frequently, or not at all. Which makes Disney lose the secondary income other people have since talked about. The markup on souveneirs (or soven-ears, however you freaks want to put it :D ) is insane. Not to mention the mark-up for food and especially alcohol. If they make a few dollars less on the gate and make up for it elsewhere, that's a "loss leader" approach that every business uses at some point or another. Supermarkets give away turkeys at Thanksgiving if you spend a couple of hundred dollars in groceries leading up to the holiday. Why? Because they make their profit on everything else you buy up to that point, PLUS they'll make money on all the trimmings you'll need for that turkey. Electronics stores will sell a HTIB system at or below cost and then convince you to buy Monster Cable to maximize the sound, or try to talk you into a new TV or an upgraded system. Worst case scenario, they hope that you'll remember that deal the next time you need something and will go back to them. It's not an uncommon sales tactic.

This is starting to remind me of the griping people had when Disney tried to get away with the early morning hour and replace it with the Character Caravan at WDW. Disney saw all the extra money they had to put into opening up the parks an hour early and decided to cut costs on that. Disney visitors, in kind, reacted by not staying on Disney properties. Let's face it, even the Value resorts are more expensive than many neighboring hotels or motels. But when you stay at Disney, it's for the convenience, the themeing...and the amenities. When the Suits tried to take away what was for many people the #1 amenity, they took a big hit. Now look at the flipside-they've returned the early morning hour AND added late-night hours under the current EMH plan, and they're having a record-breaking year. Granted, EMHs aren't the ONLY reason, but it's a big one.

I bring this up because, while I have my doubts that a former Imagineer is necessarily clued in to what the biggest of the bigwigs at Disney are thinking, if they ARE thinking that APers are more of a hassle than they're worth, I'd bet that they'd see the error of their ways the moment they tried to restrict or dissuade passholders. In short, with our tendency to go often throughout the year, even during the slow times, and spend more money on souveniers and dining because of the money we save on admission, we're worth the grief. :D
 

MommytoMJM

New Member
Hurricane said:
I think you're onto something.The article misses the point that some AP are like goodwill ambassadors.

PS MommytoMJ -- stop chatting with CMs and let them get back to work! ; ) jk

ROTFLMMEO! We try hard not to keep them from their jobs...a lot of CM's spend their breaks with us! It makes us feel really good when we can go to the parks and have a CM tell us that thye were having a horrible day unitl they saw us! I love being able to make Magic for them. I try hard to remember and acknowledge birthdays (took a CM a bday card this weekend as a matter of fact and two CP'ers graduation cards too) It makes my day to be able to get out of my own problems for a few hours and brighten someone's day. I do it with random guests too.
 

Hakunamatata

Le Meh
Premium Member
MommytoMJM said:
I didn't see anything in there about AP's (like us) who do nothing but rave about the joys of Disney, don't try to do every ride or show (we are often in the parks and only do one or two attractions and spend the rest of the time discovering, chatting with CM's or just enjoying the ambiance) admittedly, we don't have a lot of $$ to spend in the parks because of MJ's medical needs, but we try hard to give back in other ways (going out of our way to brighten CM's days, talk to managers about the awesome job the CM's are doing, picking up trash when we see it, etc it isn't much, but it is what we can do right now) if we did have any extra $$ at all, it would be spent at Dinsey!

ok, / rant


I totally understand where MommytoMJM is comming from. We help support a small third world country, six missionaries to Uganda, and a young boy with premature balding.

We actually took gifts to the concierges (sp??) at the WL on our honeymoon.
 

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