Insane crowds, more space needed

Willmark

Well-Known Member
Lol this thread.

The cattle baron is packing more cattle into the paddock, one might say ramming them in and is there anyone surprised the mooing is getting louder?

The problem is this is only going to change when something tragic happens at say “the stampede” after fireworks. It’s going to happen eventually imo and it’s entirely preventable but it appears Disney is willing to take the risk.

How do I know this? “Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.”
 

larryz

I'm Just A Tourist!
Premium Member
Who says that every attraction has to be open from rope drop to close down? They could have longer hours but rotate the schedules of the rides. That way, the midways would be less crowded at least.
That's a BFI.
Shouldn't this more accurately be described as insane crowd levels or is the OP more concerned with the mental inability of the guests to be civil to each other ?
No, I think OP got it right...
 

Tanna Eros

Well-Known Member
Lol this thread.

The cattle baron is packing more cattle into the paddock, one might say ramming them in and is there anyone surprised the mooing is getting louder?

The problem is this is only going to change when something tragic happens at say “the stampede” after fireworks. It’s going to happen eventually imo and it’s entirely preventable but it appears Disney is willing to take the risk.

How do I know this? “Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.”

That's why I altered my plans to be honest. I grew up by Riverfront Coliseum and the Beverly Hills Supper Club, both overpacked tragedies.
I kept seeing photos after photos of the park slam packed full of people.
I kept trying to push myself that "It won't be so bad", but sometimes you get an inkling feeling of "don't chance it", so I finally gave in, and changed my vacation. That's just me, though.
 

Willmark

Well-Known Member
That's why I altered my plans to be honest. I grew up by Riverfront Coliseum and the Beverly Hills Supper Club, both overpacked tragedies.
I kept seeing photos after photos of the park slam packed full of people.
I kept trying to push myself that "It won't be so bad", but sometimes you get an inkling feeling of "don't chance it", so I finally gave in, and changed my vacation. That's just me, though.
People have largely forgot about the Beverly Hills Super Club Fire and the lessons it taught.

Hell, people have probably forgotten about the Station Fire in RI in 2003.

Probably because I was a fireman and EMT but to this day I’m always aware of my means of egress especially when people are packed in. Add in Americans “me first” mentality? I’m suprised it doesn't happen more.
 
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Tanna Eros

Well-Known Member
People have largely forgot about the Beverly Hills Super Club Fire and the lessons it taught.

Hello people have probably forgotten about the Station Fire in RI.

Probably because I was a fireman and EMT but to this day I’m always aware of my means of egress especially when people are packed in. And in Americans “me first” mentality? I’m suprised it didn’t happen more.
I kind of gasped when I read your post; I always look for the exit, too.

I'm 5'2", 100 lbs, and my sister's even smaller than me. She was lifted over the heads of the crowds by football playing friends at the Who concert. My friend wasn't so lucky, he was right by the door.
My aunt got this incredible headache at BHSC, she's really allergic to perfumes and some chemicals. She vamoosed a half hour before literal he!! broke loose. I've always had a sneaking suspicion that her allergy reacted to the Zebra Room being on fire.

Even in a half empty movie house, I look for the exits, and position myself accordingly.
 

Willmark

Well-Known Member
I kind of gasped when I read your post; I always look for the exit, too.

I'm 5'2", 100 lbs, and my sister's even smaller than me. She was lifted over the heads of the crowds by football playing friends at the Who concert. My friend wasn't so lucky, he was right by the door.
My aunt got this incredible headache at BHSC, she's really allergic to perfumes and some chemicals. She vamoosed a half hour before literal he!! broke loose. I've always had a sneaking suspicion that her allergy reacted to the Zebra Room being on fire.

Even in a half empty movie house, I look for the exits, and position myself accordingly.
Sorry for your loss and I appreciate your candor. It’s refreshing for people to acknowledge yes there are physical differences.

I also appreciate your situational awareness. Most people are terrible at this. I also look for more secondary and tertiary means of egress if possible.

As far as Riverfront, so many things wrong there, but then again look at crushes at soccer matches over the last 50 years. I’d say not much different.
 

Tanna Eros

Well-Known Member
Sorry for your loss and I appreciate your candor. It’s refreshing for people to acknowledge yes there are physical differences.

I also appreciate your situational awareness. Most people are terrible at this. I also look for more secondary and tertiary means of egress if possible.

As far as Riverfront, so many things wrong there, but then again look at crushes at soccer matches over the last 50 years. I’d say not much different.
Thank you. I tend to smile as I recall my friend, but then, he always smiled.

I actually studied the Riverfront and BHSC in depth to see what happened. I think a lot of people do that after a tragedy like that; especially a tragedy that didn't have to happen.

Fellow patrons rushed forward to help at Hillsborough, but also, there was the playing field which lent room to be able to help, and what help they could render was botched by ambulances not being able to get to those stricken down.
I don't see any space at all in the parks to render mass aid, or getting an emergency vehicle through in the Disney parks.

I kept planning my stay, and getting antsy about it, and realized, "That's your inner voice, if you're antsy sitting at your desk, imagine the reality of it in a sea of people. People that you can't see around to be aware of the situation." They would all be head and shoulders taller than me.
I will be resorting at Disney in wide opens spaces, but I'll bypass the park experience. That's just me and my claustrophobia.
 
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Willmark

Well-Known Member
Thank you. I tend to smile as I recall my friend, but then, he always smiled.

I actually studied the Riverfront and BHSC in depth to see what happened. I think a lot of people do that after a tragedy like that; especially a tragedy that didn't have to happen.

Fellow patrons rushed forward to help at Hillsborough, but also, there was the playing field which lent room to be able to help, and what help they could render was botched by ambulances not being able to get to those stricken down.
I don't see any space at all in the parks to render mass aid, or getting an emergency vehicle though.

I kept planning my stay, and getting antsy about it, and realized, "That's your inner voice, if you're antsy sitting at your desk, imagine the reality of it in a sea of people. People that you can't see around to be aware of the situation." They would all be head and shoulders taller than me.
I will be resorting at Disney in wide opens spaces, but I'll bypass the park experience. That's just me and my claustrophobia.
You raise an interesting point, the closer analogies aren’t the hotel fires, but the outdoor events like Hillsborough or the Ibrox disaster. Or and I realize this will be sensitive.., the hajj stampede/crushing incidents in Saudi Arabia over the last several decades.

The 1990 hajj crush has the most direct parallels in terms of funneling people in and out of the MK. Now granted the entrance/exits are somewhat wide and not the scope as in SA, but natural choke points where large amounts of people could easily become trapped? Throw in the proliferation of ecvs and strollers in the case of MK? I maintain Disney has a large scale incident waiting to happen.

So what to do based on this say for you? I’d never advocate stepping outside of your zone especially in light of having personal knowledge of Riverfront. What you can do is minimize your risks. When everyone else is stampeding to the exit, wait. Or exit early. Avoid the highest capacity days at MK. Etc.

Another interesting part to note is it’s really MK that has this issue. The other three not as much if at all.

Either way if you go have a great time, if you don’t I can completely understand why.
 
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Tanna Eros

Well-Known Member
What were the crowds like when the park first opened? In 1971 to the mid 1970s for example. You would think this would be a time with overflowing crowds and while it seems lots of people went it just never looked nearly as busy in old pictures.
I was there in 1976.
It was very open. I'm finding out now that characters approaching a person is a rarity, but back then, even my family noted the propensity of "stuffed animal people" approaching us. This I attribute to my 2 year old cousin, who looked like Tweety Bird.
Twice I was handed books of E-tickets by CMs. Main Street was very open. I could sit by myself at where the Winnie the Pooh breakfast is now located and crowd watch while eating fries and not get shoo'ed away.
I'm not going to get that today, I know.
 

Tanna Eros

Well-Known Member
You raise an interesting point, the closer analogies aren’t the hotel fires, but the outdoor events like Hillsborough or the Ibrox disaster. Or and I realize this will be sensitive.., the hajj stampede/crushing incidents in Saudi Arabia over the last several decades.

The 1990 hajj crush has the most direct parallels in terms of funneling people in and out of the MK. Now granted the entrance/exits are somewhat wide and not the scope as in SA, but natural choke points where large amounts of people could easily become trapped? Throw in the proliferation of ecvs and strollers in the case of MK? I maintain Disney has a large scale incident waiting to happen.

So what to do based on this say for you? I’d never advocate stepping outside of your zone especially in light of having personal knowledge of Riverfront. What you can do is minimize your risks. When everyone else is stampeding to the exit, wait. Or exit early. Avoid the highest capacity days at MK. Etc.

Another interesting part to note is it’s really MK that has this issue. The other three not as much if at all.

Either way if you go have a great time, if you don’t I can completely understand why.

A mass of loose people being funneled- yes, that's the breaking point in almost every scenario I studied.
a conglomeration of people moving towards a fixed sized area is what causes the majority of the issues. I'd just read of a bottlenecking incident at Epcot, and can understand the panic the poster felt. He felt trapped, and as if his child were in danger. The child was in a stroller, which can act as a tripping mechanism and the child could get hurt.

My big takeaway from that particular post is that poster freaked a bit, and wrote that he cleared a four foot area around him. In a crowd, that would create a ripple effect- I'm pretty sure that for that four foot area of space created in the middle of the crowd, a woman the size of me got knocked on her butt ten feet away, where she herself would become a tripping mechanism in a mass exodus away from the 'emergency'.
This was one incident that was written about, but I think this 'panic attack' can happen to anyone at any part of the park. If people further away from perimeter of the one who panicked do not understand the reason behind the mini-crush, they may react as if there is genuine emergency, and panic, themselves, thus causing a crush.
I look at mass crowds as the ebb and flow of water, the mass of people react in waves, some go down, some are lifted up. They don't have much say of their direction in the dense packing, same as molecules of water in the ocean.
I am a very small molecule of water, I'm not going to risk it.

There is one fellow that survived the Station incident by by hugging the wall, and when he went down, he lay sideways, covering his face with his hands.
I can't be guaranteed to be by a wall.
 
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Patcheslee

Well-Known Member
That's why I altered my plans to be honest. I grew up by Riverfront Coliseum and the Beverly Hills Supper Club, both overpacked tragedies.
I kept seeing photos after photos of the park slam packed full of people.
I kept trying to push myself that "It won't be so bad", but sometimes you get an inkling feeling of "don't chance it", so I finally gave in, and changed my vacation. That's just me, though.
After a crowd crush at a Korn concert resulted in 3 broken ribs I have anxiety in crowds. Always looking for exits and making sure not too many ppl behind me.
 

Disorbust

Well-Known Member
The Disney corporation needs to build nothing, they should just keep increasing prices until attendance drops ..... problem solved.

This does seem to be the "business" solution and I don't doubt it happens.

or they could have the fireworks twice a night during high season. I think the crowding is really a result of a fireworks show centered on the castle. Wishes you could watch from many areas outside the hub and still enjoy it and I also think not having the evening parades. The parades spread people out along the route, so you either staked out a spot for the parade or fireworks.
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
This does seem to be the "business" solution and I don't doubt it happens.

or they could have the fireworks twice a night during high season. I think the crowding is really a result of a fireworks show centered on the castle. Wishes you could watch from many areas outside the hub and still enjoy it and I also think not having the evening parades. The parades spread people out along the route, so you either staked out a spot for the parade or fireworks.

Resetting 17 minutes worth of fireworks to happen again in an hour or two is not feasible. Back when the Star Wars and Christmas shows at DHS both had significant fireworks, it took them a year to figure out how to turn around a reset for two 7 minute shows.
 

larryz

I'm Just A Tourist!
Premium Member
Resetting 17 minutes worth of fireworks to happen again in an hour or two is not feasible. Back when the Star Wars and Christmas shows at DHS both had significant fireworks, it took them a year to figure out how to turn around a reset for two 7 minute shows.
So don't reset for a second show... set for two to start with...
 

Tanna Eros

Well-Known Member
The Disney corporation needs to build nothing, they should just keep increasing prices until attendance drops ..... problem solved.
It wasn't the money in my case, it was the massive attendance, but yes, It seems to be their plan. On the bright side, I can get an RV with the savings.

Mister Penguin, in my mind, bleachers would be an added structure for the K-Bugs to be confused about on their way to speaking to the manager, and the space it takes would take away from the next movie's (Whatever it may be) themed ride.
Some of people's experiences in the park sound more like they were gladiators in a coliseum than guests. The bleachers, at least to my thinking, would only be one more thing for parents to battle over, and to try to maneuver their strollers onto.
I envision the park to someday be nothing but parents riding the backs bumpers of their overloaded strollers, being pulled by a line of dogs, mimicking the race scene in Ben Hur.

Consistently raising the prices might add the 'entitled' mindset and the disgruntlement of "I paid how much for this?!?!".
 
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"El Gran Magnifico"

Mr Flibble is Very Cross.
Premium Member
I'm sure that will require some infrastructural adaptations.

Or, they can create new venues to watch the fireworks as I outline in the link in my sig. :)

VR Fireworks........coming to a park near you. You'll have 50k people with funny looking glasses looking up into the air at nothing, while music is pumped into the background. VR glasses are then returned as you exit the park. As sad as it sounds.......................give it a decade or two.
 

KikoKea

Well-Known Member
About once a year we will watch the castle show, usually from the side near TL or AL. Normally, we watch the fireworks from FL or TL, whichever is nearest to a late FP or where we want to go, but we stay away from the masses out front. And, we hang out and wait for the crowd to thin. If we absolutely have to get back to our room shortly after closing, we will watch the fireworks from the TTC dock- a nice place to view them- or just skip it and head back.
 

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