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Indiana Jones Land?

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I forgot about the Play Pavilion and the TSL rides, so they count. I'm not convinced we will see Mary Poppins within 3 1/2 years at this point, though.

Do you really think Disney will be building an additional 3-5 rides in the next 3.5 years, though? They're struggling to finish things (or even start them) that they've already announced -- it seems like they'd have to announce all those attractions and start building them within the next year or so to have any chance of having them complete before EU opens (that is if EU isn't delayed, which wouldn't be that surprising either). I'd honestly be surprised if we got even one more new attraction (that hasn't been announced) actually built and opened in the next 3.5 years.
Without a significant rise in attendance, there is little incentive for current management to even consider more capex investment. They are cranking at the height of demand right now for parks...so it’s not really a good time to evaluate what may be necessary in 10 years - which is exactly where you’d be if another large slate rolled out now.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
More than anything, I’d still reeeaaalllly like to see replacements for VotLM, BatB, and Launch Bay. I realize that replacing existing attractions doesn’t raise the number of attractions in the park... but quality replacements might at least create a higher count of things people would want to do. Also, a parade element for DHS wouldn’t hurt....

DHS is a 31 year old theme park.

By now it should have lots of rides, a daily parade (like it used to) and new shows every few years.
 

SpectroBro

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
DHS is a 31 year old theme park.

By now it should have lots of rides, a daily parade (like it used to) and new shows every few years.
Agreed. As someone who much prefers entertainment to “rides”, I really think it’s such a shame that Studios’ entertainment package has gone essentially untouched for decades.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
DHS is a 31 year old theme park.

By now it should have lots of rides, a daily parade (like it used to) and new shows every few years.
Agreed. As someone who much prefers entertainment to “rides”, I really think it’s such a shame that Studios’ entertainment package has gone essentially untouched for decades.

But what does that tell you?

It’s “by design” at this point.

I think the book is closed on significant expansion with this last couple of years of “major” expansion...

It’s the footprint that tells the tale
 

yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
It would be expanding, not replacing -- that's my whole point. Disney could easily build two rides in the space that Jungle Cruise currently takes, and probably a table service restaurant too.
That's still called replacing - genuine expansion is building on space that wasn't accessible to the guest experience before.

New Fantasyland built 2 rides and a restaurant on the space that was previously occupied by 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, but having 3 offerings on that land instead of just one big one is a shell game - that land was still part of the guest experience 20 years ago, and dividing it up in 3 ways rather than one isn't expansion.

There's a plot between Pirates and Jungle Cruise that can be accessed without closing either attraction - if they built two rides and a restaurant there THAT would be expansion since that land has never been accessible to the Magic Kingdom guest experience.

At this day in age there's really no good reason for Disney to close any attraction in WDW for the sake of building a new one. They have all the land they need to build more rides without closing old ones, and the parks are absolutely in need of additional offerings rather than simply newer ones.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
More than anything, I’d still reeeaaalllly like to see replacements for VotLM, BatB, and Launch Bay. I realize that replacing existing attractions doesn’t raise the number of attractions in the park... but quality replacements might at least create a higher count of things people would want to do. Also, a parade element for DHS wouldn’t hurt....
The ride count could go up though.
 

Magicart87

〝𝘙𝘪𝘨𝘩𝘵𝘺-𝘖!〞
Premium Member
Epcot is in a bad state right now, but DHS is even worse. All things considered. Barely anything worthwhile to keep you there more than 2ish hours.

And that's after the addition of Toy Story Land and Galaxy's Edge with a sprinkling of other attractions designed to hopefully keep you there. Yet, it's still a half-day park. And likely will remain that way even after MMRR opens. The park needs another land like mashed potatoes need gravy. Maybe two.
 
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BasiltheBatLord

Well-Known Member
Epcot is in a bad state right now, but DHS is even worse. All things considered. Barely anything worthwhile to keep you there more than 2ish hours.
DHS once MMRR opens is going to be in the best shape it's been in years, imo.

Toy Story Land falls flat, but regardless of what you think of SWL, it fits well into DHS (unlike on the West Coast). And as much as it sucked to lose GMR, MMRR seems like it will be a good ride at least.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Epcot is in a bad state right now, but DHS is even worse. All things considered. Barely anything worthwhile to keep you there more than 2ish hours.
Very disappointed that at the end of the day there isn’t really much more to gobble up time...
Yep...breathe slowly and sit down if you feel lightheaded
And that's after the addition of Toy Story Land and Galaxy's Edge with a sprinkling of other attractions designed to hopefully keep you there. Yet, it's still a half-day park. And likely will remain that way even after MMRR opens. The park needs another land like mashed potatoes need gravy. Maybe two.
I agree...it’s still a feeder park.

But to me the redo of the parking lots, abrams hotel and the repurposing of most of the old office/production facilities was very telling...

They just further Locked off significant expansion...which means the only way it becomes a real full day is if the 2 new lands were really over built and knocked your socks off with stuff to do.

Nope...both underbuilt. 2 attractions and minor diversions otherwise.

I just don’t think they willing to expand the footprint, increase the overhead, and risk cannibalizing the more expensive sister parks.

Die is cast
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
DHS once MMRR opens is going to be in the best shape it's been in years, imo.

Toy Story Land falls flat, but regardless of what you think of SWL, it fits well into DHS (unlike on the West Coast). And as much as it sucked to lose GMR, MMRR seems like it will be a good ride at least.
But the “best shape” is after 25 years of mismanagement. It’s really just going to be maybe back to keeping pace with the lesser goals Disney has always set for it.

I think maybe Epcot will be much more invigorated, much faster, than studios
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
That's still called replacing - genuine expansion is building on space that wasn't accessible to the guest experience before.

New Fantasyland built 2 rides and a restaurant on the space that was previously occupied by 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, but having 3 offerings on that land instead of just one big one is a shell game - that land was still part of the guest experience 20 years ago, and dividing it up in 3 ways rather than one isn't expansion.

There's a plot between Pirates and Jungle Cruise that can be accessed without closing either attraction - if they built two rides and a restaurant there THAT would be expansion since that land has never been accessible to the Magic Kingdom guest experience.

At this day in age there's really no good reason for Disney to close any attraction in WDW for the sake of building a new one. They have all the land they need to build more rides without closing old ones, and the parks are absolutely in need of additional offerings rather than simply newer ones.

I disagree. It's replacing if capacity stays more or less the same. If capacity is expanded (and two rides would definitely expand capacity), then it's more than a simple replacement. Your argument only makes sense if they used the entire Jungle Cruise space to build one ride that simply replaced the old one, like Frozen replacing Maelstrom or Mission: Space replacing Horizons. And New Fantasyland isn't a shell game; that's a silly argument. It has far more capacity than 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea did on its own. The quality is worse, IMO, so it wasn't an ideal replacement, but it still improved capacity which the parks need. Beyond that, there will occasionally be rides/shows that deserve replacement. Jungle Cruise is one of those rides. It's both irrelevant (thanks to Animal Kingdom) and wasteful in multiple ways. At the very least it needs a complete overhaul.

With that said, they should absolutely use the expansion plot first. There's no reason to close the Jungle Cruise when that land is available for use.
 

yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
And that's after the addition of Toy Story Land and Galaxy's Edge with a sprinkling of other attractions designed to hopefully keep you there. Yet, it's still a half-day park. And likely will remain that way even after MMRR opens. The park needs another land like mashed potatoes need gravy. Maybe two.
I'd get more specific - the park needs more compelling attractions. They can build as many lands as they want, but if they're pulling light duty like Toy Story Land or Animation Courtyard it won't matter. If they build another land or two with a varied menu of attractions (as in more than the 1.5 they've gotten in the habit of building) I bet the needle would move.

They don't all have to be grand slams like Rise, but they've got to stop bunting with attractions like Alien Swirling Saucers unless there's a lot of protein already on the plate. No one minds the Mad Tea Party, Carousel, and Dumbo in Fantasyland because it also has Small World, Peter Pan, Seven Dwarfs, Pooh, Mermaid . . . there's a lot else going on.

These days it feels like anything that isn't the major headlining attraction of a new land is getting the shrift - and what happens then is that people wait in line for an hour+ for that ride, spend 4 minutes on it, and then skip "town" for the next hit because that land doesn't have it. That doesn't work when you're trying to get people to stay in a park all day, because they feel like they're done when they've seen the highlight reel. You've got to give people more reasons to stay in place longer before they move on to the next part of the park.

This is harder with ADR and MDE sending people all over the map at all times, but all the more reason you have to give people a reason to come back to a space they've already been. If you wait for Na'vi River Journey before your Fastpass for Flight of Passage and then pop quickly over to Asia to get on Everest, what are the odds you're coming back to eat at Satu'li Canteen later that day? Not necessarily great. But if you had another ride to draw you back that way or keep you in the area after knocking out the major offering, you might get hungry before you've run to the next E-Ticket and look for the options in the area. A good D-Ticket with a reasonable wait would do - does such a thing even exist anymore?

An Indy Land with an E Ticket like has been rumored, a D-ticket on the level of, say, Mine Train, and a C-Ticket like Na'vi River Journey, plus a restaurant, a quick service, and the requisite gift shop or two would do sooo much to bring DHS closer to being a full-day experience. If they found a way to keep the Stunt Show in all of this, all the better! Though I don't expect that this echoes what Disney actually has in mind.

EDITED To Add: In rereading my post I find it funny that I've listed Mine Train and Na'vi River Journey as tier examples to fill out a land when I've griped on this board about the shortcomings of both - you'd think they don't fit my earlier plea for Compelling Attractions at DHS. But I think it's fair to say that both of those rides would hold up more successfully if they weren't tasked with doing so much heavy lifting on their own - Pandora with a nice D-Ticket between FoP and NRJ would balance the land favorably for a smaller experience like NRJ. Seven Dwarfs Mine Train is in the unenviable position of being the newest ride in the post popular area of the most popular park in the world, and I think that if New Fantasyland brought another attraction in along with it and Mermaid (and didn't slouch so much on the execution of Mermaid) then Seven Dwarfs would have less pressure to deliver as a MAJOR Fantasyland experience, which it wasn't really meant to be. A new land at DHS with a solid E-Ticket and two other rides comparable to these is a more favorable mix of new attractions than Disney has given us at once in a looong, long time.
 
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Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I disagree. It's replacing if capacity stays more or less the same. If capacity is expanded (and two rides would definitely expand capacity), then it's more than a simple replacement. Your argument only makes sense if they used the entire Jungle Cruise space to build one ride that simply replaced the old one, like Frozen replacing Maelstrom or Mission: Space replacing Horizons. And New Fantasyland isn't a shell game; that's a silly argument. It has far more capacity than 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea did on its own. The quality is worse, IMO, so it wasn't an ideal replacement, but it still improved capacity which the parks need. Beyond that, there will occasionally be rides/shows that deserve replacement. Jungle Cruise is one of those rides. It's both irrelevant (thanks to Animal Kingdom) and wasteful in multiple ways. At the very least it needs a complete overhaul.

With that said, they should absolutely use the expansion plot first. There's no reason to close the Jungle Cruise when that land is available for use.
I agree with this...

But I also have to caveat it by saying the truly significant developments/expansions always involve new footprints/grounds to cover.

One of the reasons I think toy story and NFL are so underwhelming is that it feels like a repurpose - not an add - in time and space.

Avatar feels like a new space...even though it’s also an elaborate repurpose...

It’s weird. Don’t know how the Epcot stuff will play?
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I'd get more specific - the park needs more compelling attractions. They can build as many lands as they want, but if they're pulling light duty like Toy Story Land or Animation Courtyard it won't matter. If they build another land or two with a varied menu of attractions (as in more than the 1.5 they've gotten in the habit of building) I bet the needle would move.

They don't all have to be grand slams like Rise, but they've got to stop bunting with attractions like Alien Swirling Saucers unless there's a lot of protein already on the plate. No one minds the Mad Tea Party, Carousel, and Dumbo in Fantasyland because it also has Small World, Peter Pan, Seven Dwarfs, Pooh, Mermaid . . . there's a lot else going on.

These days it feels like anything that isn't the major headlining attraction of a new land is getting the shrift - and what happens then is that people wait in line for an hour+ for that ride, spend 4 minutes on it, and then skip "town" for the next hit because that land doesn't have it. That doesn't work when you're trying to get people to stay in a park all day, because they feel like they're done when they've seen the highlight reel. You've got to give people more reasons to stay in place longer before they move on to the next part of the park.

This is harder with ADR and MDE sending people all over the map at all times, but all the more reason you have to give people a reason to come back to a space they've already been. If you wait for Na'vi River Journey before your Fastpass for Flight of Passage and then pop quickly over to Asia to get on Everest, what are the odds you're coming back to eat at Satu'li Canteen later that day? Not necessarily great. But if you had another ride to draw you back that way or keep you in the area after knocking out the major offering, you might get hungry before you've run to the next E-Ticket and look for the options in the area. A good D-Ticket with a reasonable wait would do - does such a thing even exist anymore?

An Indy Land with an E Ticket like has been rumored, a D-ticket on the level of, say, Mine Train, and a C-Ticket like Na'vi River Journey, plus a restaurant, a quick service, and the requisite gift shop or two would do sooo much to bring DHS closer to being a full-day experience. If they found a way to keep the Stunt Show in all of this, all the better! Though I don't expect that this echoes what Disney actually has in mind.
This is fantastic...excellent job highlighting where “igerian” theory is coming up short.

It’s facades and one ride...and nothing else to keep you from hoping the next bus back to magic kingdom
 

yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
I disagree. It's replacing if capacity stays more or less the same. If capacity is expanded (and two rides would definitely expand capacity), then it's more than a simple replacement. Your argument only makes sense if they used the entire Jungle Cruise space to build one ride that simply replaced the old one, like Frozen replacing Maelstrom or Mission: Space replacing Horizons. And New Fantasyland isn't a shell game; that's a silly argument. It has far more capacity than 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea did on its own. The quality is worse, IMO, so it wasn't an ideal replacement, but it still improved capacity which the parks need. Beyond that, there will occasionally be rides/shows that deserve replacement. Jungle Cruise is one of those rides. It's both irrelevant (thanks to Animal Kingdom) and wasteful in multiple ways. At the very least it needs a complete overhaul.

With that said, they should absolutely use the expansion plot first. There's no reason to close the Jungle Cruise when that land is available for use.
That's the point I was driving at. Everything above is irrelevant in the face of this, and the company chooses the alternative for the wrong reasons too frequently. Your mileage may vary on the quality of The Jungle Cruise, and I think that's a fair enough evaluation, but the attraction does well in terms of capacity and popularity against whatever odds, AND has land next to it.

I'd happily see it get a nice, hearty refurb to bring it lovingly into the 21st century, but there's no viable reason to replace it and we shouldn't give Disney a pass when they make moves like that just because they think it's easier for whatever reason (*glances in the direction of The Great Movie Ride*).
 
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UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
That's the point I was driving at. Everything above is irrelevant in the face of this, and the company chooses the alternative for the wrong reasons too frequently. Your mileage may vary on the quality of The Jungle Cruise, and I think that's a fair enough evaluation, but the attraction does well in terms of capacity and popularity against whatever odds AND has land next to it.

I'd happily see it get a nice, hearty refurb to bring it lovingly into the 21st century, but there's no viable reason to replace it and we shouldn't give Disney a pass when they make moves like that just because they think it's easier for whatever reason (*glances in the direction of The Great Movie Ride*).

Yeah, Great Movie Ride is another one I should have mentioned as an outright replacement.

Jungle Cruise is unique -- a ride that has basically lost its reason to exist because of other developments. Who cares about seeing old (or even brand new) animatronic elephants when you can go see the real thing at another park a couple of miles away? I'm not sure what they could do to it, even with a serious overhaul, to fix that problem. Disney doesn't really have any other rides with a similar issue. But like you said, it's still popular, so my opinion of it seems to be a minority one. And it's a moot point as long as they have that unused expansion plot sitting there.
 

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