Hybrid busses.

[Grumpy-Fan]

When we were in FW last week we saw an odd looking bus. We asked A bus driver and he said that it was A hybrid that they were testing out. I don`t think it was actually transporting guests but rather just running routes. They probably just want to see how econmical it really is. The bus had Wachovia bank on it and it was the Wachovia colors.

 

[Kamikaze]

They have been testing alternative fuel buses for years.

Until they can get a fuel cell powered bus (or maybe hydrogen and build their own on property station) they won't convert over. Electric/diesel hybrids need to be charged far too often for the type of load that WDW gets.

Did you happen to ask what kind of 'hybrid' it was?

 

[Grumpy-Fan]

They have been testing alternative fuel buses for years.

Until they can get a fuel cell powered bus (or maybe hydrogen and build their own on property station) they won't convert over. Electric/diesel hybrids need to be charged far too often for the type of load that WDW gets.

Did you happen to ask what kind of 'hybrid' it was?

No, I just assumed it was gas/electric like the cars on the road. You make A really good point though about the charging.

 

[scpergj]

They have been testing alternative fuel buses for years.

Until they can get a fuel cell powered bus (or maybe hydrogen and build their own on property station) they won't convert over. Electric/diesel hybrids need to be charged far too often for the type of load that WDW gets.

Did you happen to ask what kind of 'hybrid' it was?

Um...no.

A hybrid vehicle is one with both electric and a "regular" engine, usually gasoline or diesel powered. What makes them work is that the engine shuts off when the vehicle comes to a stop or (possibly) slows below a certain speed. The electric motor(s) will move the vehicle up to a certain speed - at times the vehicle will run totally on electricity, but when more power is needed, or the batteries run down too far, the engine turn on, either to move the vehicle or to charge the batteries. Now, there is such a thing as a plug in hybrid, but those are still in the early stages of development. They would get plugged in during non-use hours, and the engine would only be used to re-charge the batteries (or even directly power the electric motors) on longer trips than the batteries are good for.

I can imagine that hybrid fuel vehicles, especially busses, would lower the gas/diesel bills at WDW considerably; however, the cost of battery replacement could be quite high, much higher than a regular car like the Toyota Prius or the Honda Civic hybrid.

There are two major pluses that I see if WDW is considering hybrid technology, and they are not the 'normal' ones...first, it would lower the noise in the bus loading areas, and second, visitors wouldn't have to smell that stinky diesel exhaust, again in the load/unload areas. I'm not big on the 'save the earth' stuff (anyone seen that the temperatures on Mars are up more than oon Earth?), but the technology is very interesting, and anything to lower our dependence on middle-eastern oil is great with me.

 

[Kamikaze]

Um...no.

A hybrid vehicle is one with both electric and a "regular" engine, usually gasoline or diesel powered. What makes them work is that the engine shuts off when the vehicle comes to a stop or (possibly) slows below a certain speed. The electric motor(s) will move the vehicle up to a certain speed - at times the vehicle will run totally on electricity, but when more power is needed, or the batteries run down too far, the engine turn on, either to move the vehicle or to charge the batteries. Now, there is such a thing as a plug in hybrid, but those are still in the early stages of development. They would get plugged in during non-use hours, and the engine would only be used to re-charge the batteries (or even directly power the electric motors) on longer trips than the batteries are good for.

I can imagine that hybrid fuel vehicles, especially busses, would lower the gas/diesel bills at WDW considerably; however, the cost of battery replacement could be quite high, much higher than a regular car like the Toyota Prius or the Honda Civic hybrid.

There are two major pluses that I see if WDW is considering hybrid technology, and they are not the 'normal' ones...first, it would lower the noise in the bus loading areas, and second, visitors wouldn't have to smell that stinky diesel exhaust, again in the load/unload areas. I'm not big on the 'save the earth' stuff (anyone seen that the temperatures on Mars are up more than oon Earth?), but the technology is very interesting, and anything to lower our dependence on middle-eastern oil is great with me.

No. The way a electric/gas (diesel in the case of buses) hybrid works is that it charges the batteries when you brake. The electric engine only runs the car at very low speeds (1st and 2nd gear, basically). Thats why you actually don't get that much benefit from a hybrid if you are driving at highway speeds a lot.

Because a bus weighs so much more than a small car, the electric has to do a lot more work to gain the same effect.

I'm not saying that a gas/electric hybrid wouldn't be a benefit. But doing something like a hydrogen fleet would be far more forward thinking and more efficient.

 

[TTATraveler]

NYC is using hybrid electric buses, seems to me if they can work in NYC with the constant stopping and going, they should be able to work in Disney. There is nothing worse then watching and smelling a Disney bus pull away from the bus stop:hurl:.

 

[KingStefan]

No... The electric engine only runs the car at very low speeds (1st and 2nd gear, basically). Thats why you actually don't get that much benefit from a hybrid if you are driving at highway speeds a lot...

The electric engine runs the car at any speed. In fact, at highway speeds, it takes less energy to run the car, because you are not accelerating. To be precise, the reason you get less benefit on the highway has nothing to do with the speed. It has to do with the fact that you are not braking as much, and so you are not recharging the batteries. It takes much more energy to accerate a car from 0-60 than it does to run at 60 for the same amount of time.

 

[ImaYoyo]

I have no idea if it was or was not, but it could have been hydrogen. Isn't lynx the one doing the hydrogen bus test in orlando? With the hydrogen fueling station at the airport? While I doubt that one of those busses was all the way at Ft. Wilderness, I wouldn't rule it out.

But then again, didn't your info come from a bus driver? :lookaroun

 

[TTATraveler]

I have no idea if it was or was not, but it could have been hydrogen. Isn't lynx the one doing the hydrogen bus test in orlando? With the hydrogen fueling station at the airport? While I doubt that one of those busses was all the way at Ft. Wilderness, I wouldn't rule it out.

But then again, didn't your info come from a bus driver? :lookaroun

Not sure about Lynx, but I do know that as I crossed the street in Downtown Orlando the other day just as a Lynx bus passed, there were no fumes.

 

[MickeyGirl910]

Um...no.

A hybrid vehicle is one with both electric and a "regular" engine, usually gasoline or diesel powered. What makes them work is that the engine shuts off when the vehicle comes to a stop or (possibly) slows below a certain speed. The electric motor(s) will move the vehicle up to a certain speed - at times the vehicle will run totally on electricity, but when more power is needed, or the batteries run down too far, the engine turn on, either to move the vehicle or to charge the batteries. Now, there is such a thing as a plug in hybrid, but those are still in the early stages of development. They would get plugged in during non-use hours, and the engine would only be used to re-charge the batteries (or even directly power the electric motors) on longer trips than the batteries are good for.

I can imagine that hybrid fuel vehicles, especially busses, would lower the gas/diesel bills at WDW considerably; however, the cost of battery replacement could be quite high, much higher than a regular car like the Toyota Prius or the Honda Civic hybrid.

There are two major pluses that I see if WDW is considering hybrid technology, and they are not the 'normal' ones...first, it would lower the noise in the bus loading areas, and second, visitors wouldn't have to smell that stinky diesel exhaust, again in the load/unload areas. I'm not big on the 'save the earth' stuff (anyone seen that the temperatures on Mars are up more than oon Earth?), but the technology is very interesting, and anything to lower our dependence on middle-eastern oil is great with me.

What does the temperature on Mars have to do with saving the Earth? Does Mars have life? Um.. no.

 

[scpergj]

No. The way a electric/gas (diesel in the case of buses) hybrid works is that it charges the batteries when you brake. The electric engine only runs the car at very low speeds (1st and 2nd gear, basically). Thats why you actually don't get that much benefit from a hybrid if you are driving at highway speeds a lot.

Because a bus weighs so much more than a small car, the electric has to do a lot more work to gain the same effect.

I'm not saying that a gas/electric hybrid wouldn't be a benefit. But doing something like a hydrogen fleet would be far more forward thinking and more efficient.

Again...wrong.

Regenerative braking does indeed play a part in charging the batteries on most hybrid vehicles, however, it is not the sole recharging method.

First, here is a link to read before telling me I am wrong: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car7.htm

And here is one on the GM-Allison hybrid bus system, which DOES INDEED use the engine to recharge the battery packs: http://www.hybrid-vehicles.net/gm-allison-hybrid-bus.htm

Now that I have read more about these busses, I think that Disney not only could clean up sound and smell around the bus stops, I can definitly see that they could save a BUNCH of money with these - and that's the name of the game for them, isn't it?

Interesting topic...forced me to learn more than I already knew.

 

[DisneyCane]

No. The way a electric/gas (diesel in the case of buses) hybrid works is that it charges the batteries when you brake. The electric engine only runs the car at very low speeds (1st and 2nd gear, basically). Thats why you actually don't get that much benefit from a hybrid if you are driving at highway speeds a lot.

Because a bus weighs so much more than a small car, the electric has to do a lot more work to gain the same effect.

I'm not saying that a gas/electric hybrid wouldn't be a benefit. But doing something like a hydrogen fleet would be far more forward thinking and more efficient.

This entire post is very inaccurate. There are many types of hybrids out there. ALL of them can run with the batteries dead. The regenerative breaking is what gets a lot of the city milage benefit. Accelerating 0-45 takes about the same amount of energy as you theoretically "burn off" with brakes to decelerate from 45 back to 0 (assuming you accelerate and brake at about the same rate). Regenerative breaking uses as much of that energy as possible to recharge the batteries so you can use it to accelerate again.

The bus weighing more than a car has nothing to do with anything. The bus can still recover the same percentage of energy from regenerative breaking. A prius doesn't get 50 miles per gallon vs. an Escape getting 34 because the hybrid works better on a small car. It gets higher gas milage because it is a smaller car and weighs less. Therfore it takes less energy to accelerate and less energy to maintain speed on the highway (due to reduced drag).

The reason you don't get much benefit from a hybrid at highway speeds (actually it hurts you) is that at highway speed you don't get the benefit of regenerative breaking (because you don't stop) and transmissions are geared so that in top gear at highway speed the gas engine is running close to it's optimal/most efficient RPM. Having the hybrid actually hurts a little on the highway because you are carrying the extra weight of the electric motor, batteries and hybrid components.

A hydrogen fleet would make no sense whatsoever. Unless they find a hole in the ground filled with hydrogen you have to PRODUCE the hydrogen. It is produced either by splitting water (which requires that electricity is produced by some other means) or reforming other fuels (which requires energy to do and the source fuel for the hydrogen). If hydrogen could be easily found or produced without using fossil fuels then we could use hydrogen as a fuel right now. You can burn hydrogen instead of gas in a modified internal combustion engine. You don't need fuel cell vehicles to use hydrogen (although they use the hydrogen more efficiently but cost too much due to platinum needed in the fuel cell).

Bottom line is that even if they could only get a 10% efficiency gain with hybrid busses they would save A LOT of money by using 10% less diesel fuel.

 

[wannab@dis]

Electric/diesel hybrids need to be charged far too often for the type of load that WDW gets.

Well, I see that your posts have been replied to so I won't bother... but please, try to be accurate in your posts.

What does the temperature on Mars have to do with saving the Earth? Does Mars have life? Um.. no.

Exactly! That's the point! So, apparently humans didn't cause it.... hmm... wonder what it could have been? The sun?!? Nah, surely that big ball of fire couldn't affect planetary temperatures. :zipit:

 

[ImaYoyo]

Maybe one of these?

SeaWorld buses run on hydrogen
Orlando Sentinel (FINAL) - February 21, 2008 - p C1, CENTRAL FLORIDA BUSINESSBy Scott Powers, Sentinel Staff WriterSeaWorld Orlando rolled out two new hydrogen-powered shuttle buses Wednesday, joining an experimental program that already powers similar buses to Orlando International Airport and the Orange County Convention Center.
The new buses will be used to shuttle Busch Entertainment Corp. employees between the company's three Orlando parks -- SeaWorld, the Discovery Cove luxury resort and the soon-to-open Aquatica water park -- and the company's off-site offices.

Busch Entertainment might eventually use the buses, or more like them, to shuttle park visitors who want to take in more than one park, as Walt Disney World does with its bus system. But such an option will have to wait for the hydrogen-bus pilot project to run its course, and for SeaWorld to assess the demand among visitors who might want to visit SeaWorld and Aquatica on the same day.
"Right now, it's primarily going to be used for just allowing that movement of our employees between the three parks," said Kelly Bernish, SeaWorld's director of environmental health and safety.
SeaWorld's 12-passenger shuttle buses are Ford E-450s, powered by internal-combustion V-10 engines modified to run on hydrogen rather than gasoline. Their emissions are almost entirely water vapor. They deliver a 99.7 percent reduction in carbon-dioxide emissions.
Bernish said SeaWorld wants to explore expanding the use of hydrogen fuel, or biodiesel fuel, vehicles throughout the company's fleet. Rivals Universal Orlando and Disney World already have converted many of their vehicles to biodiesel fuel.
The hydrogen-fuel bus program involves a partnership of Ford Motor Co., Chevron Technology Ventures, Progress Energy Corp. and the Florida Department of Environmental Protection's Florida Energy Office. The buses will refuel at a hydrogen station that the state opened last year on Boggy Creek Road, not far from Orlando International.
Ford is delivering 30 of the buses to customers across North America as part of a test fleet. The Greater Orlando Airport Authority and the Orlando Convention Central District got the first of the vehicles last spring.

 

[Kamikaze]

Again...wrong.

Regenerative braking does indeed play a part in charging the batteries on most hybrid vehicles, however, it is not the sole recharging method.

First, here is a link to read before telling me I am wrong: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car7.htm

And here is one on the GM-Allison hybrid bus system, which DOES INDEED use the engine to recharge the battery packs: http://www.hybrid-vehicles.net/gm-allison-hybrid-bus.htm

Now that I have read more about these busses, I think that Disney not only could clean up sound and smell around the bus stops, I can definitly see that they could save a BUNCH of money with these - and that's the name of the game for them, isn't it?

Interesting topic...forced me to learn more than I already knew.

And what exactly was wrong about my post? Yours and the one after it just reposted what I said with more words. Did I say that it was the only recharging method? No.

This entire post is very inaccurate. There are many types of hybrids out there. ALL of them can run with the batteries dead. The regenerative breaking is what gets a lot of the city milage benefit. Accelerating 0-45 takes about the same amount of energy as you theoretically "burn off" with brakes to decelerate from 45 back to 0 (assuming you accelerate and brake at about the same rate). Regenerative breaking uses as much of that energy as possible to recharge the batteries so you can use it to accelerate again.

Braking. Not breaking. Acceleration and braking are NOT at the same rate. At this was the case, you would never need any gas. You would basically have the formula for a perpetual motion machine, which, as we all know, does not exist.

The bus weighing more than a car has nothing to do with anything. The bus can still recover the same percentage of energy from regenerative breaking. A prius doesn't get 50 miles per gallon vs. an Escape getting 34 because the hybrid works better on a small car. It gets higher gas milage because it is a smaller car and weighs less. Therfore it takes less energy to accelerate and less energy to maintain speed on the highway (due to reduced drag).

The bus weighing more than a car has nothing to do with anything. That was your first line. Then you say the less the car weighs the better. Make up your mind.

The reason you don't get much benefit from a hybrid at highway speeds (actually it hurts you) is that at highway speed you don't get the benefit of regenerative breaking (because you don't stop) and transmissions are geared so that in top gear at highway speed the gas engine is running close to it's optimal/most efficient RPM. Having the hybrid actually hurts a little on the highway because you are carrying the extra weight of the electric motor, batteries and hybrid components.

Right. So you adding enough weight to the bus with the motor and the batteries (for which you would need many, many, more than in a car/suv) would somehow benefit you? No, it wouldn't. And braking from say 45-0 is not going to charge all those batteries.

A hydrogen fleet would make no sense whatsoever. Unless they find a hole in the ground filled with hydrogen you have to PRODUCE the hydrogen. It is produced either by splitting water (which requires that electricity is produced by some other means) or reforming other fuels (which requires energy to do and the source fuel for the hydrogen). If hydrogen could be easily found or produced without using fossil fuels then we could use hydrogen as a fuel right now. You can burn hydrogen instead of gas in a modified internal combustion engine. You don't need fuel cell vehicles to use hydrogen (although they use the hydrogen more efficiently but cost too much due to platinum needed in the fuel cell).

And you don't have to produce gas/diesel?

Bottom line is that even if they could only get a 10% efficiency gain with hybrid busses they would save A LOT of money by using 10% less diesel fuel.

I'm not saying they wouldn't get a benefit. I'm saying that the form of hybrid that a prius uses is not practical for this use.

Well, I see that your posts have been replied to so I won't bother... but please, try to be accurate in your posts.

I assumed it would be a plug in hybrid (like a Chevy Volt), rather than a Prius style hybrid. The first way wouldn't work due to the amount the buses are out. The second would work, but not as well as switching to an alternative fuel.

 

[DisneyCane]

Braking. Not breaking. Acceleration and braking are NOT at the same rate. At this was the case, you would never need any gas. You would basically have the formula for a perpetual motion machine, which, as we all know, does not exist.

You can't have a perpetual motion machine due to wind resistance (and friction). If you could remove the atmosphere and design a system which is 100% efficient in recovering, storing and re-using the energy from braking AND you just kept accelerating to a speed and breaking to zero in a continuous cycle (and accelerated and brake at the same rate) you could theoretically have a perpetual motion machine. Unfortunately, you can't remove the air resistance and no system can recover 100% of the breaking energy nor can it store it with 100% efficiency or re-use it with 100% efficiency. The space shuttle does get very good "gas mileage" in orbit where it keeps orbiting around with no fuel needed once it gets to space.

The bus weighing more than a car has nothing to do with anything. That was your first line. Then you say the less the car weighs the better. Make up your mind.

What I meant was that the efficiency gained by the hybrid system (in percentage terms) doesn't have anything to do with the weight of the vehicle. The weight matters because a heavier vehicle will get worse gas milage no matter what kind of engine you have.

Right. So you adding enough weight to the bus with the motor and the batteries (for which you would need many, many, more than in a car/suv) would somehow benefit you? No, it wouldn't. And braking from say 45-0 is not going to charge all those batteries.

Not at highway speeds it won't benefit at all but in a stop and go situation it will give you a benefit. Plus, you just need to install the number of batteries that can be expected to get charged by a typical slowing and stopping of the bus (plus a few to charge off the diesel engine that can run the A/C while the bus is at a stop so you can turn off the motor).

And you don't have to produce gas/diesel?

You do but the energy is already contained in the crude oil when you pump it out of the ground. Refining is just filtering the different hydrocarbons out. To produce hydrogen you must break the molecular bonds of a compound that contains hydrogen to recover the hydrogen. You might get a slight overall efficiency gain if you can get a fuel cell vehicle to work at 60% efficiency vs. gas which is around 22%.

I'm not saying they wouldn't get a benefit. I'm saying that the form of hybrid that a prius uses is not practical for this use.

How do you know? That's probably why they are testing it. I have no idea how much they spend on fuel but if they even saved 10% and that savings was more than the increased maintenance cost then it would be very practical.

I assumed it would be a plug in hybrid (like a Chevy Volt), rather than a Prius style hybrid. The first way wouldn't work due to the amount the buses are out. The second would work, but not as well as switching to an alternative fuel.

Alternative fuel sounds great but alternative fuel that actually costs less than diesel (without tax breaks on it) is virtually nonexistent. Maybe the sugar cane based ethanol in Brazil comes close but they can't produce enough of it to fuel the world. All other currently available alternatives (like soy based biodiesel or corn based ethanol) are expensive and don't do much if anything at all for the environment. All they do is raise the price of everything else that uses soybeans or corn. Eventually the technology will be there to produce beneficial and cheaper alternative fuels but we're not there yet.

 

[mk12a]

Designline is the manufacturer of the hybrid bus being used in FW. It is on tour to various places for testing. It came to WDW from NYC. After its trial here it is supposedly going to be shipped overseas. Don't know if will be part of the Olympics or not. The third picture down is the actual bus when it was in NYC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designline

 

[comics101]

I wish they'd test out a new system of transportation all togeather. I absolutely hate the buses...

 

[teebin]

If they are already manufacturing Hydrogen powered buses then why aren't they manufacturing hydrogen powered cars, furnaces, air conditioners etc, etc, etc? Anyone in the know, know? What is the holdup?

 

[Grumpy-Fan]

Designline is the manufacturer of the hybrid bus being used in FW. It is on tour to various places for testing. It came to WDW from NYC. After its trial here it is supposedly going to be shipped overseas. Don't know if will be part of the Olympics or not. The third picture down is the actual bus when it was in NYC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designline

Yep, thats the one!