Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

[HauntedPirate]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Our entire central cities were built around mass transit — look up the history of Thomas Lowry and Twin Cities Rapid Transit. Our cities were not built for the car nor for the massive amounts of space devoted to car storage.

Further, “they don’t come close to any major businesses” - what are you smoking and where can I get some? Downtown Mpls and St. Paul have the lions share of major businesses in the Twin Cities and LRT now runs through the heart of them. Plus the airport and Megamall are major businesses, as well.

And if you ever rode those buses compared to the light rail, you’d understand how much better the LRT is than driving or bussing into downtown. Many more people use the LRT than the “perfectly fine” buses they replaced.

And if the LRT wasn’t built then you have to devote more storage space for cars in an area that could be better utilized for businesses and housing.

Car storage is blight in a city.

Actually, I do know what I'm talking about. I used to ride the bus route from MOA to downtown Minneapolis frequently. Adding light rail and saying "more people use it" is a red herring because anyone can get on and ride it without paying - I rode it last night and not a single transit cop in sight. The Minneapolis street car system has been gone for over 60 years. It was used mostly within Minneapolis and some of St. Paul. It closed because people started moving and stopped using it. The cities and suburbs have all grown up and built out and left the street car system in the dust.

Newsflash - There are already tons of parking ramps in downtown Minneapolis, and they are adding more residential so there's already going to be more added.

And let's see, where are these "largest employers in the Twin Cities" located?

- Best Buy
- Target
- UHC
- Medtronic
- 3M
- Cargill
- CHS
- US Bank
- General Mills
- SuperValu
- Thomson Reuters
- Land O'Lakes
- Toro
- Deluxe
- Carlson Companies

Not a single one is on a light rail line. I'd go on, but I think the point has been made that it is you who don't know anything about this area. Sure, go ahead and do some Google searching to try and make yourself look relevant. I've lived here all my life, and have been using the mass transit system for more than 20 years. It's nowhere near the sunshine and rainbows and unicorns that you want to make it out to be.

Back on topic...

I don't see Comcast letting a rail line to Disney happen without significant noise being made if they aren't getting a stop at Universal as well.

 

[UCF]

For this discussion I'm assuming the traveler already owns the vehicle for daily life. My point is the incremental cost of a round trip from South Florida to Disney isn't as much as estimated.

I don't know what people pay at jiffy lube or wherever for an oil change because I do my own but even if it is $50, modern cars go at least 5000 miles between changes. That's a penny a mile or less than $5 for the round trip. Tire wear will be less than 3 cents per mile. The increased maintenance cost will be under $20.

As far as the cost compared to mass transit, if the cost per passenger mile is lower than for an automobile, why do almost all mass transit systems lose money? I think I've read that Brightline's business plan requires profiting of if the real estate at the stations.

The mass transit systems generally lose money for the same reason nearly all roads lose money: we decided we want to subsidize travel as a country. We always need to use sales tax dollars, property taxes, and other revenue streams on top of the gas tax to subsidize our road and their operations, often along with heavy ticketing.

 

[Lensman]

The mass transit systems generally lose money for the same reason nearly all roads lose money: we decided we want to subsidize travel as a country. We always need to use sales tax dollars, property taxes, and other revenue streams on top of the gas tax to subsidize our road and their operations, often along with heavy ticketing.

Sidewalks are also big money-losers, but I appreciate the fact that they are built and maintained. I hate walking around towns that don't require them. I understand that lots of people don't care because they don't walk or have dogs, but I like them!

 

[Skibum1970]

Actually, I do know what I'm talking about. I used to ride the bus route from MOA to downtown Minneapolis frequently. Adding light rail and saying "more people use it" is a red herring because anyone can get on and ride it without paying - I rode it last night and not a single transit cop in sight. The Minneapolis street car system has been gone for over 60 years. It was used mostly within Minneapolis and some of St. Paul. It closed because people started moving and stopped using it. The cities and suburbs have all grown up and built out and left the street car system in the dust.

Newsflash - There are already tons of parking ramps in downtown Minneapolis, and they are adding more residential so there's already going to be more added.

And let's see, where are these "largest employers in the Twin Cities" located?

- Best Buy
- Target
- UHC
- Medtronic
- 3M
- Cargill
- CHS
- US Bank
- General Mills
- SuperValu
- Thomson Reuters
- Land O'Lakes
- Toro
- Deluxe
- Carlson Companies

Not a single one is on a light rail line. I'd go on, but I think the point has been made that it is you who don't know anything about this area. Sure, go ahead and do some Google searching to try and make yourself look relevant. I've lived here all my life, and have been using the mass transit system for more than 20 years. It's nowhere near the sunshine and rainbows and unicorns that you want to make it out to be.

Back on topic...

I don't see Comcast letting a rail line to Disney happen without significant noise being made if they aren't getting a stop at Universal as well.

In Cincinnati, a plan was started to build lightrail that would have cost $2.0B. It never happened. I really wished that they had built the system but I don't fully know if it would have paid off for the reasons you mentioned. While downtown has a lot of workers, the suburbs have a lot of companies. So, I'm not sure that it would have ever made money. Plus, as commuters, we need to change our mindset on how we approach public transit. I'll be the first to admit that I still prefer driving because I feel like I have more control over my destination and trip.

For the Brightline, I could see the draw for people in Tampa to go to WDW but I don't really know how many people do that daily. Is it enough to justify building a station? I also wonder how people will commute from a station to their actual location without an existing bus or train system. If I arrive in Orlando to visit my fictional Aunt Mary, how do I get to her house? Obviously, I'm hoping that she picks me up or I'll be using Uber/Bus/Taxi to get there. So, a WDW stop would need Disney to commit to busing people or some other method.

 

[toolsnspools]

He's really not.

When you calculate the cumulative total expenses related to a vehicle (purchase price, maintenance, fuel, storage, taxes, registration, tolls, tickets, insurance, etc) , and then divide that by the number of miles driven so far (or how many you anticipate driving for the vehicle's life), it suddenly becomes extremely evident that driving is a very expensive endeavor. However, it is separated into so many separate transactions that we don't usually think of driving in terms of total cost per mile.

Someone once told me that it costs about $1/mile to drive. I didn't believe him; I thought it was ludicrous. Then I calculated it out, and that actually is roughly correct.

Now, that assumes one is driving one's own car. A rental transaction obviously skews things differently.

Driving is extremely expensive -- and when you calculate things in a similar manner for your boilerplate mass transit system, the cost per passenger mile comes out in favor of the train.

From a cost perspective, the cost of a car needs to be divided by the number of passengers, so for me that is 5, or 20 cents per mile. Each rider on mass transit needs to pay their own way, so for my family, you need to multiply that cost by 5. A $20 train ticket form MCO to I-4 and World Drive is now $100. Since it's a 20 mile trip, my train costs are now $5/mile. That doesn't account for the fact that without some other form of transportation, I'll never even make it the last 5 miles to my hotel.

 

[gustaftp]

Actually, I do know what I'm talking about. I used to ride the bus route from MOA to downtown Minneapolis frequently. Adding light rail and saying "more people use it" is a red herring because anyone can get on and ride it without paying - I rode it last night and not a single transit cop in sight. The Minneapolis street car system has been gone for over 60 years. It was used mostly within Minneapolis and some of St. Paul. It closed because people started moving and stopped using it. The cities and suburbs have all grown up and built out and left the street car system in the dust.

Newsflash - There are already tons of parking ramps in downtown Minneapolis, and they are adding more residential so there's already going to be more added.

And let's see, where are these "largest employers in the Twin Cities" located?

- Best Buy
- Target
- UHC
- Medtronic
- 3M
- Cargill
- CHS
- US Bank
- General Mills
- SuperValu
- Thomson Reuters
- Land O'Lakes
- Toro
- Deluxe
- Carlson Companies

Not a single one is on a light rail line. I'd go on, but I think the point has been made that it is you who don't know anything about this area. Sure, go ahead and do some Google searching to try and make yourself look relevant. I've lived here all my life, and have been using the mass transit system for more than 20 years. It's nowhere near the sunshine and rainbows and unicorns that you want to make it out to be.

Back on topic...

I don't see Comcast letting a rail line to Disney happen without significant noise being made if they aren't getting a stop at Universal as well.

I've lived here all my life as well, and am involved on the Gold Line Planning Commission...

FACT: Downtown St. Paul and Downtown Minneapolis are the employment hubs of the Twin Cities. Interesting how you completely misrepresent many of those companies to make your point. 3M is about to be connected on the Gold Line, several of the companies that you mention are headquartered downtown Minneapolis, and you conveniently ignore that our downtowns have the largest concentration of jobs -- filled with big and small companies.

It is thus evident that you don't know what you are talking about. The main people who ever seem to call the Blue and Green Lines "boondoggles" are the boomer-aged and older folks who never leave their second and third ring suburbs/exurbs as well as the out-of-state folks. The rest of us recognize that rail transit is far superior to cars and buses for moving around a city.

It's also worth noting that younger generations are looking to work in central locations with good access to transit.

Still chuckling that you think Minneapolis and Saint Paul weren't designed around mass transit.

 

[HauntedPirate]

I've lived here all my life as well, and am involved on the Gold Line Planning Commission...

FACT: Downtown St. Paul and Downtown Minneapolis are the employment hubs of the Twin Cities. Interesting how you completely misrepresent many of those companies to make your point. 3M is about to be connected on the Gold Line, several of the companies that you mention are headquartered downtown Minneapolis, and you conveniently ignore that our downtowns have the largest concentration of jobs -- filled with big and small companies.

It is thus evident that you don't know what you are talking about. The main people who ever seem to call the Blue and Green Lines "boondoggles" are the boomer-aged and older folks who never leave their second and third ring suburbs/exurbs as well as the out-of-state folks. The rest of us recognize that rail transit is far superior to cars and buses for moving around a city.

It's also worth noting that younger generations are looking to work in central locations with good access to transit.

Still chuckling that you think Minneapolis and Saint Paul weren't designed around mass transit.

I said I was done with this, but...

The Gold Line isn't even light rail, it is BRT. Apples to oranges. But apparently using the buses and light rail means I know nothing, so I'm out. Continue to think you know better, because all I and others see is a bunch of bureaucratic nonsense designed to hoodwink people.

Mods - I'm done with this now, I promise. The spinning being done around justifying for even more taxpayer subsidies for light rail projects that have never made a dime in profit (but are apparently "successful") has made me nauseous.

 

[gustaftp]

I said I was done with this, but...

The Gold Line isn't even light rail, it is BRT. Apples to oranges. But apparently using the buses and light rail means I know nothing, so I'm out. Continue to think you know better, because all I and others see is a bunch of bureaucratic nonsense designed to hoodwink people.

Mods - I'm done with this now, I promise. The spinning being done around justifying for even more taxpayer subsidies for light rail projects that have never made a dime in profit (but are apparently "successful") has made me nauseous.

BRT has most of the benefits of LRT which is why it gets a color designation instead of a bus number.

I find it interesting that you hold rail to a different standard than roads. All this subsidy for a low capacity solution that keeps a city in permanent gridlock. Even worse, it was massive subsidies for roads that put the rail operators out of business to begin with!

 

[Kamikaze]

I don't see Comcast letting a rail line to Disney happen without significant noise being made if they aren't getting a stop at Universal as well.

And before anyone spews some BS about 'Comcast can't do that' - who do you think sent Blumenthal out there this week to 'investigate the dangers' of 5G/mini cells because it threatens their dominance in being a broadband provider?

 

[UCF]

For the Brightline, I could see the draw for people in Tampa to go to WDW but I don't really know how many people do that daily. Is it enough to justify building a station? I also wonder how people will commute from a station to their actual location without an existing bus or train system. If I arrive in Orlando to visit my fictional Aunt Mary, how do I get to her house? Obviously, I'm hoping that she picks me up or I'll be using Uber/Bus/Taxi to get there. So, a WDW stop would need Disney to commit to busing people or some other method.

There is also a Sunrail transfer station proposed that will provide a bunch of drop offs along I-4, including downtown, to make that pickup process easier.

 

[Nubs70]

Will a high speed train even get to speed for a meaningful duration between MCO and WDW?

 

[UCF]

Will a high speed train even get to speed for a meaningful duration between MCO and WDW?

Its a relatively short trip, so probably not for a "meaningful" time, the average speed is supposed to be about 60mph/20 minutes trip time along that portion of the route. The top speed is supposed to be 125mph but that obviously can't be for very long....

 

[lazyboy97o]

Will a high speed train even get to speed for a meaningful duration between MCO and WDW?

Brightline isn’t high speed rail but higher speed rail, which is actually slower.

 

[Skibum1970]

Its a relatively short trip, so probably not for a "meaningful" time, the average speed is supposed to be about 60mph/20 minutes trip time along that portion of the route. The top speed is supposed to be 125mph but that obviously can't be for very long....

Depending on the where it would be and how one could get there, a 20 minute train ride may not be much faster than the Magical Express. Typically, it's around 45 minutes. However, on our last trip, we were at OKW and went through three resorts (POFQ, POR, and FW) before we headed towards the airport. It took easily an hour. I have also had trips where DME trip was at rush hour and took over an hour due to accidents. I have always that trains had that going for them in that, counting on people not being stupid, you don't have that many accidents with trains.

 

[UCF]

Depending on the where it would be and how one could get there, a 20 minute train ride may not be much faster than the Magical Express. Typically, it's around 45 minutes. However, on our last trip, we were at OKW and went through three resorts (POFQ, POR, and FW) before we headed towards the airport. It took easily an hour. I have also had trips where DME trip was at rush hour and took over an hour due to accidents. I have always that trains had that going for them in that, counting on people not being stupid, you don't have that many accidents with trains.

Brightline is supposed to be grade separated from Cocoa to Tampa, so there should be hopefully no opportunities for people to be stupid and cause a train crash. I believe grade separation is required for 125mph, and the max without it is 110mph.

 

[jt04]

Surprised this hasn't gotten bumped but this is a go. Should break ground this month from WPB to MCO. Negotiations happening with interested parties, I.E. City of Orlando and theme parks (rumor).

Could even see Tampa added concurrently. Wow!

 

[Trackmaster]

It looks like Disney is possibly getting their stop, but I don't really think its in Orlando, Kissimmee's, or Florida's best interest to put a stop in Beuna Vista. This just means that tourists from across the world will get off the plane, mosey over to Disney World, spend their week, dump their money, and go back to where they came from. It doesn't really help Orlando or Kissimmee. Florida should probably demand that the Brightline stop goes to a transportation hub in Orlando, and Disney is free to run buses from there. At least that way, people have the temptation to explore the cities, and add-on some excursions to their vacations. Disney's insistence on bringing all of the hotels in house is what is turning a lot of Orlando into the ghetto. Its basically killing the tourism that used to feed off of Disney.

 

[jt04]

It looks like Disney is possibly getting their stop, but I don't really think its in Orlando, Kissimmee's, or Florida's best interest to put a stop in Beuna Vista. This just means that tourists from across the world will get off the plane, mosey over to Disney World, spend their week, dump their money, and go back to where they came from. It doesn't really help Orlando or Kissimmee. Florida should probably demand that the Brightline stop goes to a transportation hub in Orlando, and Disney is free to run buses from there. At least that way, people have the temptation to explore the cities, and add-on some excursions to their vacations. Disney's insistence on bringing all of the hotels in house is what is turning a lot of Orlando into the ghetto. Its basically killing the tourism that used to feed off of Disney.

I would somewhat agree if Universal and Orlando were not growing. The beaches and the Cape/Port Canaveral also continue to do well. I just see no end to economic growth throughout central Florida.

 

[Trackmaster]

I would somewhat agree if Universal and Orlando were not growing. The beaches and the Cape/Port Canaveral also continue to do well. I just see no end to economic growth throughout central Florida.

Well, maybe my point is that the cities wanted to get out ahead of it, and make sure that Disney serves the entire region, and not just themselves before it becomes an issue. Remember -- even if the region is kicking butt, if you take away the economic prosperity, you're not left with what you had before -- you're left with a lot of crime and a lot of unemployed mouths to feed.

 

[jt04]

Well, maybe my point is that the cities wanted to get out ahead of it, and make sure that Disney serves the entire region, and not just themselves before it becomes an issue. Remember -- even if the region is kicking butt, if you take away the economic prosperity, you're not left with what you had before -- you're left with a lot of crime and a lot of unemployed mouths to feed.

People have been predicting this forever but the rest of central Florida is booming. I think you would be shocked by the massive indirect and direct tax revenues an enterprise like WDW generates to local and state government. If someone is unemployed in central Florida they aren't looking hard enough. Plenty of jobs at all levels.