Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

Jonathan Wang

Disney/Monorail Nut
I think I am not following this thread really well and maybe someone can recap in easy terms to understand (think "idiots guide to Florida's High speed real - what we know and what we don't know for sure"). Pretty pictures is a plus and will give you bonus points!

ok so original official plan was the highspeed rail from OIA to Miami with a stop at west palm. While this is still being completed for another 2 years before the train even arrives at OIA.

We have now come to find out that a company has backed and agreed to build a line to very close to disney, from the proposed plans it seems to be actually closer to international drive, not exactly what i would be considered "disney" but that could change depending on what disney would want to do.

Terminal C as we call it, has completed the train station and parking garage C, however the actual terminal has not yet been built and is the next step in getting that side done, in the final process, you should expect to see terminal C and D to be completed and the airport essentially double in size.

here is outreach plans that were given to public https://orlandoairports.net/site/uploads/Community_Outreach_Presentation_201607.pdf
 
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Progress.City

Well-Known Member
I just went through all of Brightline’s Orlando to Tampa proposal. I really like it. The company really put a lot of thought behind it. It appears that the entire route from Orlando to Cocoa Beach will be grade separated. I really like that they will connect with SunRail.

I also noticed that there’s no connection to I-Drive/USO/OCCC/Sea World. It’s this reason why Disney will most likely support it. It’ll be interesting how Comcast reacts to it.
 

epcotWSC

Well-Known Member
Maybe if we stopped subsidized roads and highways and sprawly development to such an extent, mass transit could actually have a fighting chance.

Why there is such a double-standard for motor vehicles as opposed to mass transit boggles me.
Too late for that now. Our country was designed for the automobile. Outside of cities you won't find many places where things are close together. Europe is more built for mass transit because everything is old and was built to be walkable, people had their properties on the outskirts of town instead of attached to their house. Mass transit can just drop you off on the middle of a town and you can get everywhere easily. Not possible in our 20th/21st century built suburbia.
 

gustaftp

Well-Known Member
Too late for that now. Our country was designed for the automobile. Outside of cities you won't find many places where things are close together. Europe is more built for mass transit because everything is old and was built to be walkable, people had their properties on the outskirts of town instead of attached to their house. Mass transit can just drop you off on the middle of a town and you can get everywhere easily. Not possible in our 20th/21st century built suburbia.
Not too late for that at all. We are seeing various cities like St. Paul-Minneapolis, Denver, Portland, and even Los Angeles install high capacity systems.

At a certain point, we have to admit that this experiment with the automobile has made our cities congested and unpleasant. The amount of space devoted to car storage is ludicrous, but with better planning and connecting clusters of activity, we can certainly have an effective transit system. In fact, I am currently on an advisory committee for installing a new BRT line in my community. It can and will be a success!
 

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
Actually, it's not a nickname but the official Air Traffic Control designation for the airport - it's a leftover from when the airport was called McCoy Field.



Nothing I said was incorrect. There just was no reason to use the term callsign or designation. Especially since it isn't only used by ATC, and in some cases the callsign gets used for the entire area. For example, the entire Portland, Oregon area is referred to as PDX because thats the code for the airport.
 

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
Not too late for that at all. We are seeing various cities like St. Paul-Minneapolis, Denver, Portland, and even Los Angeles install high capacity systems.

At a certain point, we have to admit that this experiment with the automobile has made our cities congested and unpleasant. The amount of space devoted to car storage is ludicrous, but with better planning and connecting clusters of activity, we can certainly have an effective transit system. In fact, I am currently on an advisory committee for installing a new BRT line in my community. It can and will be a success!

There's quite a difference between doing something in cities and everywhere else. Mass transit will never be feasible for people living outside of cities in the US. For transport to/from one of those cities, sure. But as a means to get around locally? Not at all. How do you efficiently get someone that lives deep in the suburban sprawl to the shopping area of their suburb? And do the same for every other person? You can't have them drive to it, because they might as well just drive the whole way at that point. I'm not saying mass transit doesn't work or that there aren't good applications for it, but it isn't a one-size-fits-all solution that can be used everywhere. It works the best where you have a lot of people doing the same thing. And in a suburb, thats just not the case unless its the commuters for working/visiting a larger city.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I am of the opinion we will never see this come to life. This city/county/state is absolutely stupid when it comes to transportation. Building a train between the major cities is too "smart" and and would make life too "easy" for all of us. They can't even bother to run the SunRail on the weekends, what on earth makes anyone think this would be a success?
This isn’t a city, county or state project.
 

UCF

Active Member
Original Poster
I suspect this has likely been posted before, but also know that the right of way they're proposing to use, specific to Disney, is the median of I-4, due west of downtown Celebration. The station would be where the median becomes extra wide, just east of the World Dr. interchange.

[...]

That said, they're largely proposing to pick up where the old high-speed rail initiative left off when it was killed by Governor Scott in 2011. So it's quite possible that things have changed, especially in Disney's view of the project, but also Brightline's approach and the state's.

For ex., coming from Tampa to Orlando, the right-of-way from the high-speed rail initiative carries the line up to the Beachline interchange, then follows the Beachline most of the way to the airport. Brightline, on the other hand, is proposing to veer from I-4 at the 417 interchange—just north of the Disney station—and follow the 417 to the airport.
The station likely won't be in the median as in the previous proposal, as all of Brightline's request has been to enter the median AFTER the 417 interchange and have the train located to the west of I-4 in the area of the proposed station.

If ya'll remember back, both the 417 and 528 alignments were proposed on the old HSR project and Disney fought hard for the 417 alignment but the 528 alignment won out, which Disney wasn't too happy about. This follows exactly what Disney wanted, which should make Disney happy.

I am of the opinion we will never see this come to life. This city/county/state is absolutely stupid when it comes to transportation. Building a train between the major cities is too "smart" and and would make life too "easy" for all of us. They can't even bother to run the SunRail on the weekends, what on earth makes anyone think this would be a success?
Thus far, the section of Brightline that launched in south florida has been successful and they've added additional trains to the schedule to accommodate demand.
 

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
This isn’t a city, county or state project.

Still needs approval from all of the above. I have no idea what the politics are on this as I'm not from Florida, but just because its a private project doesn't mean it can't be stopped by a level of government if they feel like it.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Still needs approval from all of the above. I have no idea what the politics are on this as I'm not from Florida, but just because its a private project doesn't mean it can't be stopped by a level of government if they feel like it.
The City has already invested in the Orlando station at the airport to which Virgin will expand to from South Florida. The Tampa-Orlando route is along I-4 because FDOT created a railroad right-of-way years ago. Virgin is essentially offering to do what has been desired and slowly built for years.
 

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
The City has already invested in the Orlando station at the airport to which Virgin will expand to from South Florida. The Tampa-Orlando route is along I-4 because FDOT created a railroad right-of-way years ago. Virgin is essentially offering to do what has been desired and slowly built for years.

I think you underestimate the stupidity of bureaucracy.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
Not too late for that at all. We are seeing various cities like St. Paul-Minneapolis, Denver, Portland, and even Los Angeles install high capacity systems.

At a certain point, we have to admit that this experiment with the automobile has made our cities congested and unpleasant. The amount of space devoted to car storage is ludicrous, but with better planning and connecting clusters of activity, we can certainly have an effective transit system. In fact, I am currently on an advisory committee for installing a new BRT line in my community. It can and will be a success!
New York City is the most congested place I've ever been to and it also has outstanding mass transit and low reliance on the automobile.

There's quite a difference between doing something in cities and everywhere else. Mass transit will never be feasible for people living outside of cities in the US. For transport to/from one of those cities, sure. But as a means to get around locally? Not at all. How do you efficiently get someone that lives deep in the suburban sprawl to the shopping area of their suburb? And do the same for every other person? You can't have them drive to it, because they might as well just drive the whole way at that point. I'm not saying mass transit doesn't work or that there aren't good applications for it, but it isn't a one-size-fits-all solution that can be used everywhere. It works the best where you have a lot of people doing the same thing. And in a suburb, thats just not the case unless its the commuters for working/visiting a larger city.

^This. In order for mass transit to work efficiently, you need to have high population density AND high density of destinations. I don't really understand the obsession with trying to shoehorn rail service where it makes no sense. To see how mass transit doesn't work when combined with suburban sprawl, look no further than South Florida.

You have Tri-Rail and Metro-Rail. If you live in Broward or Palm Beach County and work in Miami-Dade and want to take a train, you still have to drive to the Tri-Rail station. Unless you work in Downtown Miami or at very specific places with a Metro-Rail station then you have to take busses on the destination end. Even if you work in Downtown Miami and can take Metro-Rail/Metro-Mover, in most cases (when accounting for driving to the station and having to be there early so you don't miss the train) it will take longer to commute with Mass transit than just sitting in the horrendous traffic and driving the whole way.

I had a friend that lived in Boca Raton and worked in Doral. Back when gas prices got crazy he tried to use mass transit to save on gas. He had to drive to the Tri-Rail station then take Metro-Rail to a bus and a bus to work. It took him at least 20 minutes longer than driving door to door, even in rush hour.

Rail makes sense for long distance freight where you have heavy loads that need to go long distances. Passenger rail makes sense for densely populated cities or very heavily traveled routes that are less than 500 miles end to end where the origin and destination are both high density.

There simply isn't enough traffic between MCO and WDW to be able to have a profitable rail line. The whole South Florida to Orlando Train makes no sense to me unless it was an Auto Train and could do the trip in under 2 hours. A "long distance local" like me doesn't go to WDW to be locked on WDW property. I need a car in the Orlando area so a train would only make sense if the ticket included a rental car and ended up cheaper than the gas to make the drive.

The drive takes 3 1/2 hours including a stop for gas/bathroom if needed. Even if I didn't need a car at the destination, what would be the point of dealing with the inconvenience of a train schedule to save an hour and a maybe a few dollars. Even with my very inefficient truck, it only costs $40 or so in gas each way plus whatever the turnpike toll is up to. Even if tolls were $20 and I have 1 passenger with me, it's $30 a person each way. Is Brightline going to charge significantly less than that?
 

Lensman

Well-Known Member
You have Tri-Rail and Metro-Rail. If you live in Broward or Palm Beach County and work in Miami-Dade and want to take a train, you still have to drive to the Tri-Rail station. Unless you work in Downtown Miami or at very specific places with a Metro-Rail station then you have to take busses on the destination end. Even if you work in Downtown Miami and can take Metro-Rail/Metro-Mover, in most cases (when accounting for driving to the station and having to be there early so you don't miss the train) it will take longer to commute with Mass transit than just sitting in the horrendous traffic and driving the whole way.
Remarkably, the same can be said of many commutes in the NYC metro area. You've got to drive to the train station, park, ride the commuter train, then use city mass-transit (subway, bus, or taxi/rideshare) to get to your place of work. Door to door, it's often comparable to the time it would take you to drive to your destination. I have a friend who actually drives and parks at the Port Authority for his two days a week in the office. Yet 1.5 million workers commute to work in Manhattan using mass transit. Except for the subway and city bus, it's generally more pleasant to commute via mass transit than driving in traffic and you can be more productive. I used to read the paper, get through my emails, or read a book during my commute.

Another interesting aspect is in the past, higher density urban office space and higher density residential followed mass transit, not the other way around. There are other aspects of early and mid-century city growth that helped mass transit, but even then the private NYC subways ran into financial difficulties and eventually "had to" merge into a single system run by the city. At any rate, mass transit is now a key aspect of NYC infrastructure now, just as roads and sidewalks are. And the subways along with the commuter rails and the ferries fueled suburban sprawl to distances that in most cities would be considered exurbs.

That said, Brightline is something different - especially between SoFla, Orlando, and Tampa. It's not commuter rail for those segments. Business travel, perhaps? Or personal travel for the well-to-do? From what I've read the service seems as comfortable as Amtrak's Acela service in the Northeast Corridor.

The drive takes 3 1/2 hours including a stop for gas/bathroom if needed. Even if I didn't need a car at the destination, what would be the point of dealing with the inconvenience of a train schedule to save an hour and a maybe a few dollars. Even with my very inefficient truck, it only costs $40 or so in gas each way plus whatever the turnpike toll is up to. Even if tolls were $20 and I have 1 passenger with me, it's $30 a person each way. Is Brightline going to charge significantly less than that?
I've calculated our marginal cost of driving (gas + depreciation + maintenance, but not including State Farm Drive Safe costs), at between $0.25 and $0.30 per mile, so the 200+ mile one-way trip costs between $50 and $60 each way, plus tolls, plus the sweat equity of driving. I agree that it's hard to imagine Brightline beating even that cost. OTOH, we hate the drive so we'd consider it for trips without the kids even if it were $100 per person each way.
 

UCF

Active Member
Original Poster
^This. In order for mass transit to work efficiently, you need to have high population density AND high density of destinations. I don't really understand the obsession with trying to shoehorn rail service where it makes no sense. To see how mass transit doesn't work when combined with suburban sprawl, look no further than South Florida.
Orlando has 60+ million visitors a year, and many millions of those are going from the airport to Disney or I-Drive/Universal, so it sounds like its meeting your definition.

You have Tri-Rail and Metro-Rail. If you live in Broward or Palm Beach County and work in Miami-Dade and want to take a train, you still have to drive to the Tri-Rail station. Unless you work in Downtown Miami or at very specific places with a Metro-Rail station then you have to take busses on the destination end. Even if you work in Downtown Miami and can take Metro-Rail/Metro-Mover, in most cases (when accounting for driving to the station and having to be there early so you don't miss the train) it will take longer to commute with Mass transit than just sitting in the horrendous traffic and driving the whole way.

I had a friend that lived in Boca Raton and worked in Doral. Back when gas prices got crazy he tried to use mass transit to save on gas. He had to drive to the Tri-Rail station then take Metro-Rail to a bus and a bus to work. It took him at least 20 minutes longer than driving door to door, even in rush hour.
And there's the convenience factor of being able to sit playing on your phone/laptop instead of dealing with South Florida traffic. And for most, it has nothing to do with money... thats why Boca, among the richest of the suburbs, has the busiest Tri-Rail station. And thats with stations that were not placed well in urban areas as Tri-Rail was created as a temporary alternate route to 95 during construction limiting capacity. And if you're not going to work with reserved parking, dealing with and paying for parking adds to the benefits of the system. Thats why Tri-Rail's trains are often full, even with the failure of the government to add more trains when they do fill up.

There simply isn't enough traffic between MCO and WDW to be able to have a profitable rail line. The whole South Florida to Orlando Train makes no sense to me unless it was an Auto Train and could do the trip in under 2 hours. A "long distance local" like me doesn't go to WDW to be locked on WDW property. I need a car in the Orlando area so a train would only make sense if the ticket included a rental car and ended up cheaper than the gas to make the drive.
Its not going to be cheaper, but it will remove the need to deal with all the headaches, like focusing on roads for 3+ hours, dealing with parking, and possibly dealing with an extra oil change, tire rotation, or mechanics visit. And we're living in a generation where the young people cannot put there phone down or 5 minutes while driving. If you're going to Disney or a place on the Sunrail connections, the train makes things easier, even if it doesn't save time (and for many, it will save time, but its not the main benefit)

The drive takes 3 1/2 hours including a stop for gas/bathroom if needed. Even if I didn't need a car at the destination, what would be the point of dealing with the inconvenience of a train schedule to save an hour and a maybe a few dollars. Even with my very inefficient truck, it only costs $40 or so in gas each way plus whatever the turnpike toll is up to. Even if tolls were $20 and I have 1 passenger with me, it's $30 a person each way. Is Brightline going to charge significantly less than that?
Because you're totally underestimating the cost of driving. There's wear and tear, maintenance (tire rotations, replacements, oil, brakes, etc), depreciation, risk/insurance, parking costs, etc.

Plus people get tired from driving. If I want a one night/2 day trip to Disney from Miami, people will typically be worn out when they arrive from the drive, and then want to leave early to avoid driving tired for that second day. With the train, you can hop on in the morning, bring your breakfast or eat with the food service on the train, take a nap, relax, and arrive refreshed, and stay later into the night knowing your drive home from the train station won't be worse then a drive home from the theater. Infact, that makes a day trip possible from South Florida, its usually too daunting for most to have a vacation driving for 6 or 7 hours in a day.

Its not for everybody, there is no doubt penny pinchers likely won't be interested in the train service, in South Florida Tri-Rail/Metrorail service the same areas as Brightline at a much cheaper cost, but Brightline saves people time and is more comfortable. This isn't the suburban bus system designed to give poor people a way to get around with the name "mass transit" even though its far from that.
 

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