Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

[lazyboy97o]

That's true, but if the train never comes, that funding can lead to other transportation improvements in the area.

And if the train does come, it will likely be in phases, so if the MCO to Convention Center segment gets built, there is no guarantee that a later phase to Disney or Tampa would ever be built.

Sure, FDOT has secured the right-of-way, but that doesn't mean it will be cheap to build that segment. Based on the amount of bridging and the complexity of that segment, I wouldn't be surprised if Convention Center to Disney is an additional $500 million.

Universal has a very real chance of getting a train while Disney's chances are significantly lower.

I think the odds that a train opens from MCO to Convention Center by 2035 is around 15%, and the odds it makes it as far as the Disney area is probably more like 5%.

I would love to be wrong.

Yes, those funds could go towards other transit improvements and services, but it’s not the only resources Universal has committed to the project.

The Sunshine Corridor is also somewhat distinct from Brightline’s expansion plans. Brightline is the fancy service, but getting SunRail expanded to the airport and convention center is likely their bigger focus. SunRail is significantly cheaper than Brightline and would connect not just to the airport but the rest of the line.

Based on the old Florida High Speed Rail plans, most of the Sunshine Corridor will probably have to be elevated. I don’t think that last little bit over to I-4 is going to represent a uniquely large portion of the costs.

 

[JoeCamel]

Yes, those funds could go towards other transit improvements and services, but it’s not the only resources Universal has committed to the project.

The Sunshine Corridor is also somewhat distinct from Brightline’s expansion plans. Brightline is the fancy service, but getting SunRail expanded to the airport and convention center is likely their bigger focus. SunRail is significantly cheaper than Brightline and would connect not just to the airport but the rest of the line.

Based on the old Florida High Speed Rail plans, most of the Sunshine Corridor will probably have to be elevated. I don’t think that last little bit over to I-4 is going to represent a uniquely large portion of the costs.

If they connect SunRail to the airport and you want to ride be sure your plane lands by 5pm....

 

[Twirlnhurl]

15 minute intervals seem more akin to a subway than heavy rail.

I the US, maybe. In places with high quality rail systems, 15 minute headways would not justify subway construction. 15 minutes would be more like a high quality commuter level of service.

Based on the old Florida High Speed Rail plans, most of the Sunshine Corridor will probably have to be elevated. I don’t think that last little bit over to I-4 is going to represent a uniquely large portion of the costs.

The reason I think the segment between the Convention Center and the I-4 median will be significantly more expensive per mile than MCO and the Convention Center is this:

East of the Convention Center, the line will likely be elevated most of the way, but nearly all the bridge spans will be short and none of them will be difficult to construct.

West of the Convention Center, the transition into the rail corridor on the median of I-4 will require a bridge with very long spans or will require I-4 to be raised for a rail underpass. Either one would be built in the middle of the interchange between I-4 and the Bee Line (SR-528), meaning there would be significant vertical clearence issues necessitating more expensive construction techniques, not to mention the costs of mitigating the impact of construction to the operation of those expressways.

I believe the ~1 mile stretch between the convention center and MCO may be the single most complicated segment of the entire Brightline network.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The reason I think the segment between the Convention Center and the I-4 median will be significantly more expensive per mile than MCO and the Convention Center is this:

East of the Convention Center, the line will likely be elevated most of the way, but nearly all the bridge spans will be short and none of them will be difficult to construct.

West of the Convention Center, the transition into the rail corridor on the median of I-4 will require a bridge with very long spans or will require I-4 to be raised for a rail underpass. Either one would be built in the middle of the interchange between I-4 and the Bee Line (SR-528), meaning there would be significant vertical clearence issues necessitating more expensive construction techniques, not to mention the costs of mitigating the impact of construction to the operation of those expressways.

I believe the ~1 mile stretch between the convention center and MCO may be the single most complicated segment of the entire Brightline network.

The state will be paying to modify the interchange. It is already set to be reconfigured as part of the I-4 Beyond the Ultimate project and FDOT is still considering the rail corridor in its designs for that project. With the Sunshine Corridor now an active project it will hopefully insure that a corridor is fully considered and some of the existing conflicts are addressed. It’s the timelines that are going to be really hurt by this still being part of the public project.

I’m not sure the shorter spans, especially if they follow the high speed rail plan and go along Taft Vineland Rd, is much of a benefit. All of the driveways and other obstacles would probably mean less modularity in the design.

 

[Twirlnhurl]

Do you think the ultimate build out of the I-4/SR-528 interchange will include the rail bridges? Unless they are built at the same time as the road bridges, I think the complexity issues will remain. Threading a new bridge both above and below active roadway bridges is not easy, and those bridge spans will be significant.

But we are outside of my areas of expertise, so my opinions regarding construction cost and complexity are weakly held.

 

[Robbiem]

15 minute intervals seem more akin to a subway than heavy rail.

I the US, maybe. In places with high quality rail systems, 15 minute headways would not justify subway construction. 15 minutes would be more like a high quality commuter level of service.

These trains are more rapid transit (moving people relatively quickly over longer distances) than mass transit (moving large numbers of people over short distances)

I would expect a subway or metro service to be at least a 5 minute headway (12 trains per hour) as a minimum and more likely in the 20-30 trains per hour range, although the shinkansen in Japan manages these service levels over massive distances

 

[Ismael Flores]

Why is this train taking 3 hrs to go from Orlando to Miami? Driving is only 3 hr 20 minutes, not much of a difference.
It is the same time it takes to travel from Paris, France to Geneva Switzerland and that only costs $31 not $79 for the cheapest ticket.
Transit pricing overall here is ridiculous.

 

[maxairmike]

Why is this train taking 3 hrs to go from Orlando to Miami? Driving is only 3 hr 20 minutes, not much of a difference.
It is the same time it takes to travel from Paris, France to Geneva Switzerland and that only costs $31 not $79 for the cheapest ticket.
Transit pricing overall here is ridiculous.

Is the route comparison 1:1 in terms of distance, number of stops, and avg. speed? There are 5 stops in Miami (downtown, Aventura, Ft. Lauderdale, Boca, West Palm), so about an hour and fifteen of that trip is just going from West Palm to Downtown or reverse based on the travel times on Brightline's website. I'm going to guess that the Paris to Geneva route has maybe two or three stops that are spread out with a higher speed.

 

[JoeCamel]

Why is this train taking 3 hrs to go from Orlando to Miami? Driving is only 3 hr 20 minutes, not much of a difference.
It is the same time it takes to travel from Paris, France to Geneva Switzerland and that only costs $31 not $79 for the cheapest ticket.
Transit pricing overall here is ridiculous.

But we got cheap gas.....

 

[lazyboy97o]

Is the route comparison 1:1 in terms of distance, number of stops, and avg. speed? There are 5 stops in Miami (downtown, Aventura, Ft. Lauderdale, Boca, West Palm), so about an hour and fifteen of that trip is just going from West Palm to Downtown or reverse based on the travel times on Brightline's website. I'm going to guess that the Paris to Geneva route has maybe two or three stops that are spread out with a higher speed.

Paris to Geneva is via the TGV, so a grade separated, true high speed rail service that is operated by a state owned company.

 

[sedati]

But we got cheap gas.....

Thanks to trillions in subsidies so someone like me who doesn’t drive is still paying for it.

 

[Disone]

Why is this train taking 3 hrs to go from Orlando to Miami? Driving is only 3 hr 20 minutes, not much of a difference.
It is the same time it takes to travel from Paris, France to Geneva Switzerland and that only costs $31 not $79 for the cheapest ticket.
Transit pricing overall here is ridiculous.

It is always been advertised as 3 hours from Orlando to Miami. This is not a new development. and shouldn't be a surprise. Before the first shovel hit the ground they said it would take 3 hours.

The advantage is not having to deal with airline hassles and being able to either sleep or get worked on during the trip rather than actually operate the motor vehicle.

Agree the price is high.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Agree the price is high.

They aren’t trying to compete price wise with Amtrak or the various bus routes (greyhound, red coach, etc.)

They are competing with airlines.

 

[JoeCamel]

Thanks to trillions in subsidies so someone like me who doesn’t drive is still paying for it.

Yep, lobbyists get the job done....

 

[Disone]

They aren’t trying to compete price wise with Amtrak or the various bus routes (greyhound, red coach, etc.)

They are competing with airlines.

Aware. And that price is competitive with the airlines. And also much more frequent than the airlines. But I still say it's too high to start off with. I think if they started with introductory price that really significantly beat the airlines say $59 each way, they would get people hooked much faster.

I'm an advocate. In fact I've already done it twice. But that's because I love trains. And the ones I were on were pretty empty. I just think they could put more butts on seats if they drop their prices a little bit.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Aware. And that price is competitive with the airlines. And also much more frequent than the airlines. But I still say it's too high to start off with. I think if they started with introductory price that really significantly beat the airlines say $59 each way, they would get people hooked much faster.

I'm an advocate. In fact I've already done it twice. But that's because I love trains. And the ones I were on were pretty empty. I just think they could put more butts on seats if they drop their prices a little bit.View attachment 747301View attachment 747303View attachment 747302

They’ve already started to offer some $69 fares. They’re also increasing the number of trains per day which suggests they like the ridership they’re already getting.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

And the ones I were on were pretty empty.

Todays article in SunSentinel says trains are operating at 75% capacity on the orlando to west palm segment.

 

[Disone]

They’ve already started to offer some $69 fares. They’re also increasing the number of trains per day which suggests they like the ridership they’re already getting.

Okay so I did see $69 fares? I thought I had but then I was going to do a screen capture include that in my post and I couldn't find anymore. But thank you.! I knew I had seen them.

 

[Disone]

Todays article in SunSentinel says trains are operating at 75% capacity on the orlando to west palm segment.

Well that just is not consistent. Maybe there's some trains perhaps on the Friday nights and Sunday nights when people tend to go to and from Orlando from South Florida. But certainly on the trains I had been on it has been nowhere near that full.

 

[Robbiem]

Pricing and locality are key. In the UK the eurostar service to mainland wasn’t a success initially as it didn’t compete with the new budget airlines it had to drop its prices substantially to be competitive. Even then it only really serves a limited market. If you live elsewhere in the UK, or even in the wrong part of London its quicker, cheaper and easier in many cases to fly