Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

[Disone]

I was going to write a longer post, but edited down. Sorry, I probably cut too much.

2019:
MK had 21.0million visitors
AK 13.9 million
Epcot 12.4 million
HS 11.4 million

Simply adding 21 +13.9 +12.4 +11.4 = 58.7 million, but park attendance has little to do with how many people would use the train.
Most people who visit WDW visit more than 1 park.
People park hop.
A large percent of WDW visitors drive to WDW via personal car, rental car, paid transportation.

We also don't know how much a train would change attendance to either destination.

Thanks for the clarification.

My posts were not about the train changing attendance at either destination.

The airport to Disney or Universal really is not bright lines main business plan. Sure it'll be nice for a small percentage of the visitors, but the real thing that brightline is going for...

They're literal business plan is to provide a transportation alternative for those distances that are inconvenient to drive because it's too far but also inconvenient to fly because it's not quite far enough.

That would be the South Florida market to the Central Florida market and vice versa.

You correctly put Walt Disney world's attendance at 58.7 million. Universals combined two park attendance is 21.2 million and as you mentioned for WDW that includes the same guest visiting more then one park. However it should be noted that Magic kingdoms 2019 attendance number which is single-handedly almost the two universal parks combined.




When Disney confirmed they pulled out we immediately saw brighline announce plans for a Disney adjacent station. They need Disney way more than Disney needs Bright line and Disney knows it. Disney will absolutely not tolerate any transportation service providing transportation to WDW that is going to stop at their competitor's destination first. And though it wasn't my point, your point is correct, it's not going to change attendance at all, which only re-emphasis that Disney did not need this service. They were okay with it as long as it was direct. But as soon as it was determined it was going to stop at Universal first Disney was out.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Disney will absolutely not tolerate any transportation service providing transportation to WDW that is going to stop at their competitor's destination first.

Except they agreed to a Brightline stop when Brightline was still looking at the convention center for a stop. They also had agreed to a Florida High Speed Rail stop years ago. Not to mention that they got rid of the service that did the most to keep people captive, citing services like Lyft and Uber that take people elsewhere that they allow to operate on their property. This is consistent with an old position, not the one they have had for several years. Even without other local stops the train would have been more likely to relocate people elsewhere in Florida during a vacation than really facilitating movement between Orlando area attractions.

 

[Disone]

Except they agreed to a Brightline stop when Brightline was still looking at the convention center for a stop. They also had agreed to a Florida High Speed Rail stop years ago. Not to mention that they got rid of the service that did the most to keep people captive, citing services like Lyft and Uber that take people elsewhere that they allow to operate on their property. This is consistent with an old position, not the one they have had for several years. Even without other local stops the train would have been more likely to relocate people elsewhere in Florida during a vacation than really facilitating movement between Orlando area attractions.

That is where you and I see this differently. Disney agreed to the stop when Brightline was on superficially looking at the alternative route but very much on record as saying the preferred route due to cost was SR417, not SR528. Mayor Buddy Dyer acknowledges this in his recollection of observing how none of the involved partings were really listing to each other.

The old Florida High Speed Rail was a government project and Brightline is a private business. IMO For FHSR, Universal's objective was more to killed the project completely. For the Brightline Project, Universals was willing to be the first theme park stop for the inbound traffic from S Florida.

And lyft and uber do go direct. They do not go to universal first on the way to Disney. But honestly I always have assumed the lyft / uber thing was an excuse to cut an expense, Disney's Magical Express. Of course to your point, they do take guest off property to many points beyond Disney, but that was already a factor why before Disney cancelled DME because guests have "so many other viable transportation options". But none of them were a benefit included in a resort stay (evil eye to WDW)

 

[lazyboy97o]

That is where you and I see this differently. Disney agreed to the stop when Brightline was on superficially looking at the alternative route but very much on record as saying the preferred route due to cost was SR417, not SR528. Mayor Buddy Dyer acknowledges this in his recollection of observing how none of the involved partings were really listing to each other.

The old Florida High Speed Rail was a government project and Brightline is a private business. IMO For FHSR, Universal's objective was more to killed the project completely. For the Brightline Project, Universals was willing to be the first theme park stop for the inbound traffic from S Florida.

And lyft and uber do go direct. They do not go to universal first on the way to Disney. But honestly I always have assumed the lyft / uber thing was an excuse to cut an expense, Disney's Magical Express. Of course to your point, they do take guest off property to many points beyond Disney, but that was already a factor why before Disney cancelled DME because guests have "so many other viable transportation options". But none of them were a benefit included in a resort stay (evil eye to WDW)

Disney could have said that they would only allow a stop if they were the only local stop outside of the airport. Why didn’t they do that if it was always their position?

Disney was obstinate about stops with the Florida Overland Express and other local area transit projects. They changed their position and agreed to a stop for the Florida High Speed Rail project. Being government projects didn’t stop Disney before.

How did Universal try to kill the Florida High Speed Rail project? That was going to have a stop at the convention center to service I-Drive businesses.

Yes, the convention center would be the first stop from the south, but why would that matter? Ticket prices aren’t likely to be that dramatically different. The area is no more convenient to anything than Disney Springs relative to the rest of Walt Disney World. And the reverse also becomes true, Disney would be the first stop from Tampa.

 

[Disone]

Disney could have said that they would only allow a stop if they were the only local stop outside of the airport. Why didn’t they do that if it was always their position?

Disney was obstinate about stops with the Florida Overland Express and other local area transit projects. They changed their position and agreed to a stop for the Florida High Speed Rail project. Being government projects didn’t stop Disney before.

How did Universal try to kill the Florida High Speed Rail project? That was going to have a stop at the convention center to service I-Drive businesses.

Yes, the convention center would be the first stop from the south, but why would that matter? Ticket prices aren’t likely to be that dramatically different. The area is no more convenient to anything than Disney Springs relative to the rest of Walt Disney World. And the reverse also becomes true, Disney would be the first stop from Tampa.

They could have but they didn't. But it absolutely was their position and why did they pull out.

Government project versus privately funded, I was speaking specifically to Universals strategy and not Disney's.

I'm not sure about ticket sales and the prices. I'm certainly not speaking to that. I'm speaking to business plans. Brightline's business plan is to transport people here and the biggest attraction is Disney by 10s of million annual visits. Again, this is why you saw Bright Lane immediately Announce The Disney adjacent station.

 

[TP2000]

How do you feel about the Pacific Surfliner?

I love it!

I take the Surfliner a few times per year, although less than I used to since the family I had up in Montecito have all passed away now.

But when I lived in OC and my sister was staying at the family beach house down in La Jolla, I would often take the Surfliner from Anaheim to Solana Beach so she could pick me up at the station. That was nice because then I wouldn't have to worry about street parking at the beach house (the beach house is pre-war and so only has a 1 car garage).

I do know it's heavily subsidized by the state of California, but I don't know by how much. Amtrak never makes that easy to find out exactly how much money each of their lines/services is losing. They aren't stupid and they like to make that info hard to find.

And as for scenic beauty... There are few short-distance trains that can beat it, rolling along the OC and San Diego cliffs above the crashing waves and beaches below. They don't call it the Pacific Surfliner for nothing!

 

[JoeCamel]

I love it!

I take the Surfliner a few times per year, although less than I used to since the family I had up in Montecito have all passed away now.

But when I lived in OC and my sister was staying at the family beach house down in La Jolla, I would often take the Surfliner from Anaheim to Solana Beach so she could pick me up at the station. That was nice because then I wouldn't have to worry about street parking at the beach house (the beach house is pre-war and so only has a 1 car garage).

I do know it's heavily subsidized by the state of California, but I don't know by how much. Amtrak never makes that easy to find out exactly how much money each of their lines/services is losing. They aren't stupid and they like to make that info hard to find.

And as for scenic beauty... There are few short-distance trains that can beat it, rolling along the OC and San Diego cliffs above the crashing waves and beaches below. They don't call it the Pacific Surfliner for nothing!

Does everyone sit on one side of train?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Does everyone sit on one side of train?

The “coast” side window seats usually fill up first but there are some neat Mountain and city views on the opposite side as well.

I was once bummed to get a “non-ocean” side at lunch on the coast starlight and was rewarded with one of the most beautiful rainbows I’ve ever seen.

 

[TP2000]

Does everyone sit on one side of train?

They try.

Luckily, the windows are big and the seats are spacious, so even the folks along the cliffside can see out to the ocean pretty well. But I once gave up my oceanside seating row to a lovely couple visiting from Japan, and used my Dorky American Tourist version of Japanese to insist they change with me so they got the full Surfliner view experience. They acted as if I had just given them my seat on the last lifeboat from the Titanic.

 

[TP2000]

The “coast” side window seats usually fill up first but there are some neat Mountain and city views on the opposite side as well.

I was once bummed to get a “non-ocean” side at lunch on the coast starlight and was rewarded with one of the most beautiful rainbows I’ve ever seen.

If you eat lunch late on the Coast Starlight it takes you up through Vandenberg Space Force Base, and you can often see rockets sitting on launch pads on the "non-ocean" side of the train, which are truly fun to see. The dining car waiters often point them out to everyone to great fanfare, which I thought was sweet, and then I realized they are probably just hustling for tips from their customers who were grumpy they got seated at the non-ocean view windows. Smart move from the dining car staff!

I do wonder what the views are like from Brightline? Since Florida is so... um... lacking in vertical height, I imagine the tracks would need to be right along the coast to see the Atlantic. Are there any stretches of Brightline's route that gives folks a view of the ocean?

 

[SaucyBoy]

I do wonder what the views are like from Brightline? Since Florida is so... um... lacking in vertical height, I imagine the tracks would need to be right along the coast to see the Atlantic. Are there any stretches of Brightline's route that gives folks a view of the ocean?

Looking at the route map, most of it looks to be just inland from the coast. So while there likely isn't an ocean view, there will probably be a view of some rivers, swamps, and occasional grassland prairies. Most people find the prairies dull and bland but, while they're not Pacific Coast, I think they're a lovely part of Florida's ecosystem.

 

[Robbiem]

I’m not sure now but when I visited California in 2004 as an ’alien’ I needed a passport to buy a ticket from Anaheim to Union station. I’ve never had to do that anywhere else in the world

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I’m not sure now but when I visited California in 2004 as an ’alien’ I needed a passport to buy a ticket from Anaheim to Union station. I’ve never had to do that anywhere else in the world

Amtrak requires ID to purchase tickets. So you would need a valid ID, not necessarily a passport.

 

[TP2000]

I’m not sure now but when I visited California in 2004 as an ’alien’ I needed a passport to buy a ticket from Anaheim to Union station. I’ve never had to do that anywhere else in the world

It hasn't changed, it's exactly like flying on US airlines. If you purchase an Amtrak ticket from an agent, you must show valid government ID. If you purchase a ticket onboard from the conductor, you must show him valid government ID (or a passport for foreigners) before he will sell you a ticket.

Amtrak requires ID to purchase tickets. So you would need a valid ID, not necessarily a passport.

Amtrak has required valid government ID to buy a train ticket for 20 years now. It changed around '02 as part of the post 9/11 laws. You must show a valid government ID (driver's license or State issued ID card or DOD military ID card), but foreigners must show a valid passport in lieu of US government issued ID.

I just checked their website, and it looks like Brightline doesn't have an ID requirement. Probably because they are intra-state only, and may be classified as a "local" commuter service?

 

[Ayla]

All this talk about transportation from the airport makes me wonder how much Disney paid per passenger for Magical Express, ridership was a little over 2 million a year so if it was $10 a person (each way) they spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $40 million a year. It ran for about 11 years so about $440 million dollars, about what a monorail from MCO to Epcot would have cost (at $20 million a mile).

Disney should have personally built a monorail or light rail years ago, it would have paid for itself already.

Edited to add… depending on the website it looks like monorail cost estimates vary from $15 million a km (on websites promoting monorails) to $140 million a mile (on websites promoting light rail) so the $20 million may be unrealistic.

Oh my gosh, I would love it if trains took the place of buses at WDW. I know it is completely impractical, but think of the possibilities!

 

[tommyhawkins]

That is where you and I see this differently. Disney agreed to the stop when Brightline was on superficially looking at the alternative route but very much on record as saying the preferred route due to cost was SR417, not SR528. Mayor Buddy Dyer acknowledges this in his recollection of observing how none of the involved partings were really listing to each other.

The old Florida High Speed Rail was a government project and Brightline is a private business. IMO For FHSR, Universal's objective was more to killed the project completely. For the Brightline Project, Universals was willing to be the first theme park stop for the inbound traffic from S Florida.

And lyft and uber do go direct. They do not go to universal first on the way to Disney. But honestly I always have assumed the lyft / uber thing was an excuse to cut an expense, Disney's Magical Express. Of course to your point, they do take guest off property to many points beyond Disney, but that was already a factor why before Disney cancelled DME because guests have "so many other viable transportation options". But none of them were a benefit included in a resort stay (evil eye to WDW)

This is patently false. VHB were lobbying for the SR528. Perhaps you need to look up who they were representing, it might surprise you

 

[Disone]

This is patently false. VHB were lobbying for the SR528. Perhaps you need to look up who they were representing, it might surprise you

VHB? Also, could you please share with me the patent number?

Businesses want to bring Brightline to I-Drive

There’s a billion dollar debate on Brightline’s new route.

www.mynews13.com

Brightline President stating that both Routes have merit but the 417 route is the preferred route because it is the cheaper route. Mayor Buddy Dyer saying that in order to get the 528 route, private businesses would have to foot the extra cost that brightline would incur.

Orlando's Right Rail

Choose the right line. The only choice for Central Florida’s communities, business and environment.

www.orlandosrightrail.com

Right rail was the opposition to Brightline, trying to persuade Brightline to change from 417 to 528 and as of November of 2021, less than a year ago, they were still focused on that. The breakthrough deal was announced earlier this year.

I don't know who VHB is, I looked VHB up and I see they have some involvement but they are not bright line.

 

[tommyhawkins]

VHB? Also, could you please share with me the patent number?

Businesses want to bring Brightline to I-Drive

There’s a billion dollar debate on Brightline’s new route.

www.mynews13.com

Brightline President stating that both Routes have merit but the 417 route is the preferred route because it is the cheaper route. Mayor Buddy Dyer saying that in order to get the 528 route, private businesses would have to foot the extra cost that brightline would incur.

Orlando's Right Rail

Choose the right line. The only choice for Central Florida’s communities, business and environment.

www.orlandosrightrail.com

Right rail with the opposition to bright rail. Trying to persuade them to change from 417 to 528 and as of November of 2021, less than a year ago, they were still focused on that until finally. The breakthrough deal was announced earlier this year.

I don't know who VHB is I looked VHB up and I see they have some involvement but they are not bright line.

You could try dictionary.com for that "patent number"

And I don't need to be BrightlineSplained, I've been covering this project for a long time now. Some of the info I have put out has been quoted in this thread.

VHB represent the Idrive Chamber of Commerce of which UOR, SEAWORLD all the major hotel chains and DISNEY.
The current situation falls down to Disney not wanting to spend money on finding a new location for the Station or having land that supports where the station would need to go. This notion they would try to kill the project out of spite is very silly, and the previous iteration was killed by another governor not Uni. I have covered why the former alignment going into springs would have never worked either way. No intercity trains do three point turns like Disney wanted.


It's an incredibly complicated project and not a single news outlet I've seen have thus far managed to get a handle on explaining it's complexity similar angsty Disney Bloggers reporting with authority are bringing their own agendas and leaving out massive chunks of info. The odd conspiracy theories are entirely unhelpful

 

[Disone]

You could try dictionary.com for that "patent number"

And I don't need to be BrightlineSplained, I've been covering this project for a long time now. Some of the info I have put out has been quoted in this thread.

VHB represent the Idrive Chamber of Commerce of which UOR, SEAWORLD all the major hotel chains and DISNEY.
The current situation falls down to Disney not wanting to spend money on finding a new location for the Station or having land that supports where the station would need to go. This notion they would try to kill the project out of spite is very silly, and the previous iteration was killed by another governor not Uni. I have covered why the former alignment going into springs would have never worked either way. No intercity trains do three point turns like Disney wanted.


It's an incredibly complicated project and not a single news outlet I've seen have thus far managed to get a handle on explaining it's complexity similar angsty Disney Bloggers reporting with authority are bringing their own agendas and leaving out massive chunks of info. The odd conspiracy theories are entirely unhelpful

You're extremely hostile and it's not necessary.

I made the statement that Brightline prefers to 417 route to the 528 route and you countered that that was patently false. Clearly it is not. That's all we're talking about. Here. Was my statement about bright line.

That absolutely was true. I deleted the rest of my statement because honestly, you're just too hostile. I know you're going to fire back with some blah blah blah blah blah and how it is that you have superior knowledge of something that nobody else does. Nobody has time for that.

Edit BTW:. The majority your statement I take not issue with, However, I still stand by my statements as well. But the statemebt that it's patently false: That bright line originally strongly preferred the 417 route and that Disney is not interested in having a train stop at Universal on the way to their property, those are not patently false and those were my points. You've brought up many other points and I have no qualms about. Maybe next time take the personal attacks out of it. I tried to make it light with a but obviously you're not able to keep that. Dictionary.com? Really dude. Get over yourself.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I have covered why the former alignment going into springs would have never worked either way. No intercity trains do three point turns like Disney wanted.

People were just discussing the Pacific Surfliner which stops at Union Station in Los Angeles.