Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

[TrainsOfDisney]

Meanwhile, in California after 15 years of work and $10 Billion in construction costs they've got this so far...

to be fair, Brightline already had lots of right-of-way to work with and the new build is within the highway right of way and very flat.

Top speed on the whole Brightline system is 125 - which is fast, but about 1/2 of the top speed they are/were going for on the California High speed rail. 250 is “real” high speed which we probably will never see in our lifetimes in America.

But yes!!! Brightline is great, and I can’t wait to use it to get me to and from the cruise terminal in Miami!

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

But yes!!! Brightline is great, and I can’t wait to use it to get me to and from the cruise terminal in Miami!

Such a huge missed opportunity for Disney, a train from WDW to MCO would have been great, a train from WDW to Port Canaveral would have been amazing.

They should have made an offshoot to Port Canaveral a condition of putting a station on property, it would have benefited both companies.

 

[celluloid]

I still cannot wait for the hub near EPIC Universe. Airport and Convention Center to happen.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I still cannot wait for the hub near EPIC Universe. Airport and Convention Center to happen.

If it means saving an additional $50 each way in transportation costs it could definitely be a factor in which resort we choose to stay at.

 

[JoeCamel]

If it means saving an additional $50 each way in transportation costs it could definitely be a factor in which resort we choose to stay at.

Or maybe Universal has a shuttle? It's ~15 minutes to the airport from there.....

 

[lazyboy97o]

Or maybe Universal has a shuttle? It's ~15 minutes to the airport from there.....

Universal put in considerable effort to get the Sunshine Corridor plan put together that will not only bring Brightline service to I-Drive but also SunRail service (which will be a much cheaper option). They’ve also donated land and are seeking a community development district to help support the station.

 

[JoeCamel]

Universal put in considerable effort to get the Sunshine Corridor plan put together that will not only bring Brightline service to I-Drive but also SunRail service (which will be a much cheaper option). They’ve also donated land and are seeking a community development district to help support the station.

Yes but how long will it take to get off the plane, get on the train, get off the train and get to a hotel. Hitting the shuttle pickup with a direct trip to your hotel would be very attractive to many people. If they did baggage transfer as well it just might be Epic!

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

If it means saving an additional $50 each way in transportation costs it could definitely be a factor in which resort we choose to stay at.

You mean a $49 Uber in a 2011 Plymouth voyager to your $819 dollar room in boca chica at “The Grand” isn’t “magical”?

 

[Twirlnhurl]

Such a huge missed opportunity for Disney, a train from WDW to MCO would have been great, a train from WDW to Port Canaveral would have been amazing.

They should have made an offshoot to Port Canaveral a condition of putting a station on property, it would have benefited both companies.

I've thought about the Port Canaveral extension idea a fair bit. Back when Brightline was negotiating for right-of-way with Florida Turnpike Enterprise and the Orlando Orange County Expressway Authority, the Canaveral Port Authority was looking at alternatives, including an extension along 528 or using existing track up through Titusville and through Kennedy Space Center and around the then-Air Force Base.

A problem with a train connection to the port is the port's size. It is spread out, with half on the south side if the channel and half on the north side. Distances are so long that it would be difficult for a train station to be close enough to walk from more than two ship terminals.

A new rail right-of-way to the port would require a huge number of new bridges (or the rehabilitation of an old bridge, if the path through the space center was chosen), lots of new track or the renovation of lots of existing track, and at the end of the day, it would only serve 1/3 of the port conveniently.

I would love to see it happen, but it would be a project almost as big as bringing the new track from Cocoa to the Orlando Airport. But for a much smaller destination.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I've thought about the Port Canaveral extension idea a fair bit. Back when Brightline was negotiating for right-of-way with Florida Turnpike Enterprise and the Orlando Orange County Expressway Authority, the Canaveral Port Authority was looking at alternatives, including an extension along 528 or using existing track up through Titusville and through Kennedy Space Center and around the then-Air Force Base.

A problem with a train connection to the port is the port's size. It is spread out, with half on the south side if the channel and half on the north side. Distances are so long that it would be difficult for a train station to be close enough to walk from more than two ship terminals.

A new rail right-of-way to the port would require a huge number of new bridges (or the rehabilitation of an old bridge, if the path through the space center was chosen), lots of new track or the renovation of lots of existing track, and at the end of the day, it would only serve 1/3 of the port conveniently.

I would love to see it happen, but it would be a project almost as big as bringing the new track from Cocoa to the Orlando Airport. But for a much smaller destination.

How many ships does Canaveral actually serve in a given week? Maybe 1/4 of the total ships based in Florida?

Just not sure how that really is worth the construction and operation cost?

 

[Twirlnhurl]

How many ships does Canaveral actually serve in a given week? Maybe 1/4 of the total ships based in Florida?

Just not sure how that really is worth the construction and operation cost?

The infrastructure required to get a train out there would be considerable.

Once a train was there, it would only be convenient for two or three cruise terminals without a shuttle bus. So that is definitely points against.

On the other hand, Port Canaveral is the busiest cruise port in the world, with 4.07 million passengers going through there a day.

That works out to be 11,150 passengers per day on average.

If you assume 25% of those passengers might be interested in a one-seat train to the Orlando Airport or International Drive that would be 2,788 potential riders per day. That works out to be about half the current south Florida Brightline ridership numbers.

I started doing the math assuming the ridership would be infeasibly low. Now I am not so sure, especially if you consider that there would also be some demand for non-port train service to this area.

Also worth considering: Port Canaveral also has a container ship terminal for container freight. A rail line with passenger service to the port could also be used for freight.

There are definitely still major complications, but I actually think that this is in the realm of feasibility--maybe in the realm of 5-10% chance of this happening in the next 30 years.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

The infrastructure required to get a train out there would be considerable.

Once a train was there, it would only be convenient for two or three cruise terminals without a shuttle bus. So that is definitely points against.

On the other hand, Port Canaveral is the busiest cruise port in the world, with 4.07 million passengers going through there a day.

That works out to be 11,150 passengers per day on average.

If you assume 25% of those passengers might be interested in a one-seat train to the Orlando Airport or International Drive that would be 2,788 potential riders per day. That works out to be about half the current south Florida Brightline ridership numbers.

I started doing the math assuming the ridership would be infeasibly low. Now I am not so sure, especially if you consider that there would also be some demand for non-port train service to this area.

Also worth considering: Port Canaveral also has a container ship terminal for container freight. A rail line with passenger service to the port could also be used for freight.

There are definitely still major complications, but I actually think that this is in the realm of feasibility--maybe in the realm of 5-10% chance of this happening in the next 30 years.

excellent.

I didn’t realize Canaveral has that kinda share…34% in Florida (not including Jacksonville)

 

[lazyboy97o]

The infrastructure required to get a train out there would be considerable.

Once a train was there, it would only be convenient for two or three cruise terminals without a shuttle bus. So that is definitely points against.

On the other hand, Port Canaveral is the busiest cruise port in the world, with 4.07 million passengers going through there a day.

That works out to be 11,150 passengers per day on average.

If you assume 25% of those passengers might be interested in a one-seat train to the Orlando Airport or International Drive that would be 2,788 potential riders per day. That works out to be about half the current south Florida Brightline ridership numbers.

I started doing the math assuming the ridership would be infeasibly low. Now I am not so sure, especially if you consider that there would also be some demand for non-port train service to this area.

Also worth considering: Port Canaveral also has a container ship terminal for container freight. A rail line with passenger service to the port could also be used for freight.

There are definitely still major complications, but I actually think that this is in the realm of feasibility--maybe in the realm of 5-10% chance of this happening in the next 30 years.

It is sort of interesting how the Florida East Coast Railway never made the a branch line out the Port Canaveral. Now I’m curious to know how much they’ve looked at it. The Bennett Caussway does get pretty high, so I wonder if there are issues with the grades that would be required in order to actually get a train up that high. Obviously a movable bridge is possible but those are more expensive and the issues down south might add hesitation. It also doesn’t help that Brightline is no longer part of the FEC and the two now have completely separate ownership.

In a lot of other places, building a station in Cocoa at the Brightline-FEC junction with bus service to the terminal probably wouldn’t be a deal breaker. It’s not much different than doing some sort of bus service at the port terminal itself and you could offer dedicated services like luggage transfer. Americans though really seem to dislike the notion of being multi-modal so I could see that being a hard sell.

It’d also be interesting to know what dealing with cruise luggage would do, to the time tables.

 

[Twirlnhurl]

It is sort of interesting how the Florida East Coast Railway never made the a branch line out the Port Canaveral. Now I’m curious to know how much they’ve looked at it. The Bennett Caussway does get pretty high, so I wonder if there are issues with the grades that would be required in order to actually get a train up that high. Obviously a movable bridge is possible but those are more expensive and the issues down south might add hesitation. It also doesn’t help that Brightline is no longer part of the FEC and the two now have completely separate ownership.

The container port at Canaveral is fairly new. Their first container crane went into service in 2019.

The port authority had initially looked at reinstating the old rail line through the space center.

Brightline is red, the 528 alignment is purple, and the mostly existing freight line through the space center is yellow. (The yellow route has a few gaps near the complex 39 launch pads.)

I think the launch activity would make the yellow route fairly unreliable.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

The container port at Canaveral is fairly new. Their first container crane went into service in 2019.

The port authority had initially looked at reinstating the old rail line through the space center.

View attachment 732290
Brightline is red, the 528 alignment is purple, and the mostly existing freight line through the space center is yellow. (The yellow route has a few gaps near the complex 39 launch pads.)

I think the launch activity would make the yellow route fairly unreliable.

I’ve only cruised out of PC once and that purple line is what I was thinking of for my “easy” spur line, I didn’t realize it was nearly 10 miles though, I think the excitement of seeing the ships made me feel like it was only a mile or 2.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The container port at Canaveral is fairly new. Their first container crane went into service in 2019.

The port authority had initially looked at reinstating the old rail line through the space center.

View attachment 732290
Brightline is red, the 528 alignment is purple, and the mostly existing freight line through the space center is yellow. (The yellow route has a few gaps near the complex 39 launch pads.)

I think the launch activity would make the yellow route fairly unreliable.

While the containers are new, other types of freight have been going through the port pretty much since its inception In the 1950s. Rail service to military facilities is also not unusual and the Navy had a small presence. Like they did with so many things, building the rail before others arrived probably would have spurred use and development, especially once it was clear the space program was going there. Mid-century FEC was also apparently quite dysfunctional and hated running passenger service they probably would have been required to provide.

The Port Authority actually had three rail proposals a few years ago and they didn’t quite follow the yellow route. Going north through the Space Force base was one option, but it would have turned west near the NASA Causeway to connect to the west leg of the NASA Railroad so that it avoided the east leg near the launch complexes (the east leg is also where most of the track has been removed). Their preferred plan was the more directly head west out the port on to Merritt Island and then turn north through the wildlife area to connect to the west leg of the NASA Railroad. It didn’t help that the head of the Port Authority at the time was a Grade A jerk towards the public over the whole matter.

It’ll be interesting to see if local officials are successful in getting a Space Coast station built somewhere near Cocoa if it gets used by cruise passengers. Brightline already has Brightline+ which is basically an Uber integration. Brightline also runs shuttles to places like Miami International from Miami Central, so a shuttle to the port, at least when ships are there, would make sense.

 

[Twirlnhurl]

The Orlando Business Journal had an update on Brightline today:

Brightline ramps up passenger train testing after Orlando rail construction completed​

Brightline has more testing planned as it prepares to launch its new passenger train service from Miami to Orlando.

The Miami-based intercity rail has fully completed the primary construction on the 170-mile, $2.8 billion project as of July and will work on post-construction testing of train controls and crossing systems through the end of this month.

Brightline has put tickets on sale from the start of September through early 2024.

Why this matters: Brightline is expected to bring a new mode of travel to Orlando, as well as new jobs. Business and leisure travelers are expected to use the service.

Brightline, after finishing the last of the 110 miles per hour testing in Brevard County in July, will start crew certification and simulated service without passengers between West Palm Beach and Orlando, spokeswoman Katie Mitzner told Orlando Business Journal. That will include running the trains along the length of the expansion route as if it was providing regular service as it works toward Federal Railroad Administration certification.

The FRA process includes many of those checks for the sake of safety, including certifying the expansion's positive train control system, which works to prevent over-speed derailments and other accidents from occurring.

Business leaders expect the start of service to have a positive impact on several areas of the region.

Orlando Economic Partnership President and CEO Tim Giuliani said Brightline will be a “game changer” for the region. “Connecting two of Florida’s most dynamic markets means more opportunities. From a business perspective, the ability to remain productive while traveling opens the market up in ways that Europe and the Northeast have enjoyed for generations.”

Once service stabilizes, Brightline expects to carry more than 4.3 million people along the corridor per year, including both business and leisure travelers.

 

[JoeCamel]

A couple of questions about this, they run 4.3M a year and can charge what ~$80 a trip? That is at most 350M a year before operating expenses, taxes and insurance?
How does this ever make money? Double the fare and not much better so how?

Other question is musing and wondering if they load these trains with water dummies for testing the route?

 

[lazyboy97o]

A couple of questions about this, they run 4.3M a year and can charge what ~$80 a trip? That is at most 350M a year before operating expenses, taxes and insurance?
How does this ever make money? Double the fare and not much better so how?

The old fashioned way, real estate near the stations.

 

[JoeCamel]

The old fashioned way, real estate near the stations.

Back when the incentive was 10 mile wide row that worked but unless they have a lot of land they got for free I just don't see how the investment is ever repaid let alone how they prosper