Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
does anyone know how close the airport station is to the new Disney office campus by the airport? Would it be a viable way for staff to travel between their offices and the resort or would road travel still be the way to go?
Lake Nona is immediately south of the airport’s property, divided by FL 417.

Using Brightline wouldn’t really make sense to get to Walt Disney World. It’s about 10 minutes drive to the Terminal C garage but only about an extra 20 minutes straight down FL 417 to get to Walt Disney World. The trains aren’t going to be running that consistently so between driving to the airport, waiting for a train and then waiting for Disney transportation you’d spend a lot more time taking the train.
 

scottb411

Well-Known Member
Lake Nona is immediately south of the airport’s property, divided by FL 417.

Using Brightline wouldn’t really make sense to get to Walt Disney World. It’s about 10 minutes drive to the Terminal C garage but only about an extra 20 minutes straight down FL 417 to get to Walt Disney World. The trains aren’t going to be running that consistently so between driving to the airport, waiting for a train and then waiting for Disney transportation you’d spend a lot more time taking the train.
The map below (and also page 13 on the link below) shows an extension of Sunrail to Lake Nona Blvd (dotted orange line) that was proposed for the Amazon HQ2 proposal. This line will use existing rail from OUC to connect to the Meadow Woods station where cast members can transfer to Brightline or Sunrail to connect to Disney Springs. This proposal also shows an automated people mover in pink that is described as:

Automated People Mover - A planned automated people mover (APM) will provide a direct connection from Lake Nona Town Center to Orlando’s International Airport.


1626893778574.png
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
The map below (and also page 13 on the link below) shows an extension of Sunrail to Lake Nona Blvd (dotted orange line) that was proposed for the Amazon HQ2 proposal. This line will use existing rail from OUC to connect to the Meadow Woods station where cast members can transfer to Brightline or Sunrail to connect to Disney Springs. This proposal also shows an automated people mover in pink that is described as:

Automated People Mover - A planned automated people mover (APM) will provide a direct connection from Lake Nona Town Center to Orlando’s International Airport.


View attachment 573766
SunRail still has a major problem with its frequency of service that would have to be addressed along with the expansion.

The people movers aren’t very fast. You’d probably just be adding more time onto the trip using it to get from Lake Nona to Terminal C.
 

scottb411

Well-Known Member
SunRail still has a major problem with its frequency of service that would have to be addressed along with the expansion.

The people movers aren’t very fast. You’d probably just be adding more time onto the trip using it to get from Lake Nona to Terminal C.
From this story in April 2019:

“When we got to the airport we’ll have to extend to seven days a week and we want to do that," said Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, who also serves on the Central Florida Commuter Rail Commission. "But the original agreement with the state, and the state is operating it for the first seven years, is that it’s commuter rail service, so that means Monday through Friday certain hours.”

 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
From this story in April 2019:

“When we got to the airport we’ll have to extend to seven days a week and we want to do that," said Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, who also serves on the Central Florida Commuter Rail Commission. "But the original agreement with the state, and the state is operating it for the first seven years, is that it’s commuter rail service, so that means Monday through Friday certain hours.”

The local governments weren’t prepared for the handover that was supposed to happen this year. Local operations isn’t a guarantee for an expansion of service.
 

Twirlnhurl

Well-Known Member
The local governments weren’t prepared for the handover that was supposed to happen this year. Local operations isn’t a guarantee for an expansion of service.
Local operation is not a prerequisite for expanded operations. As is seen with the special trains they run for events downtown on nights and weekends, the state is happy to run trains later if someone pays them to.

The handover is a bit more complicated than that. The handover was supposed to occur a few years after phase two (extension south from Sand Lake Rd to Poinciana and extension north from DeBery to DeLand) was completed. However, fairly late in the game--I believe after phase one opened--phase two was split in two for federal funding purposes and the south portion was built but the north portion was not. The north portion of phase two is currently in design/under construction.

It would greatly complicate matters to change over ownership in the middle of the construction process. That is why the ownership transfer isn't happening this year.
 

Gringrinngghost

Well-Known Member
Universal is offering land to help get the Beachline route selected.
I honestly prefer that route than the straight away to Disney. It would also actually have a greater benefit as it can serve a higher amount of people and also have the ability to have an increased ridership and revenue flow. Hell even Universal saying in the public record that they “will put [their] money and [their] resources where [their] mouth is,” adding that they would donate 17 acres for the rail corridor at the convention center, give me some hope for that line.

Having Brightline go to the I-Drive district makes sense, and honestly what is the point of doing it, if you are only going halfway? Universal willing to pay into it is good enough for myself and should be a greater realization for increased ridership and revenue flow.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I honestly prefer that route than the straight away to Disney. It would also actually have a greater benefit as it can serve a higher amount of people and also have the ability to have an increased ridership and revenue flow. Hell even Universal saying in the public record that they “will put [their] money and [their] resources where [their] mouth is,” adding that they would donate 17 acres for the rail corridor at the convention center, give me some hope for that line.

Having Brightline go to the I-Drive district makes sense, and honestly what is the point of doing it, if you are only going halfway? Universal willing to pay into it is good enough for myself and should be a greater realization for increased ridership and revenue flow.
Brightline has about one billion reasons they prefer the FL 417 routes. That 17 acres helps a little out isn’t nearly enough. If Universal and the other businesses want this service then they should pay for it instead of having taxpayers pay for it or just having the project killed.
 

homerdance

Well-Known Member
I honestly prefer that route than the straight away to Disney. It would also actually have a greater benefit as it can serve a higher amount of people and also have the ability to have an increased ridership and revenue flow. Hell even Universal saying in the public record that they “will put [their] money and [their] resources where [their] mouth is,” adding that they would donate 17 acres for the rail corridor at the convention center, give me some hope for that line.

Having Brightline go to the I-Drive district makes sense, and honestly what is the point of doing it, if you are only going halfway? Universal willing to pay into it is good enough for myself and should be a greater realization for increased ridership and revenue flow.
A stop at Universal, Lake Meadow and MCO would most likely not allow the train to ever get to full cruising speed. The two destinations are much better served by a cummeter type rail, vs. an intercity as this is, it would allow for quicker and easier load/unload options.
 

Andrew M

Well-Known Member
Brightline has about one billion reasons they prefer the FL 417 routes. That 17 acres helps a little out isn’t nearly enough. If Universal and the other businesses want this service then they should pay for it instead of having taxpayers pay for it or just having the project killed.

I had my doubts when they announced this project, and that map further justifies it. It would be one thing if this is a light rail project, where steep grades to pass over existing highways/buildings is acceptable.

However for a heavy rail passenger line, the acceptable grades are alot more gradual. The route from the south and along 528 was either already built or built right along 528's Right of Way with minimal obstructions. The 9 miles from the airport to Disney Springs is highly congested, with no clear right of way except for adjacent to 417. Unless they'd go completely elevated with the railway (which becomes even costlier) there would be about a dozen intersections which would have to be completely rebuild to accommodate the tracks without a grade crossing. As an engineer with significant public works experience, I'm filing this under the 'I'll believe it when I see it' category.
 

Bob Harlem

Well-Known Member
I had my doubts when they announced this project, and that map further justifies it. It would be one thing if this is a light rail project, where steep grades to pass over existing highways/buildings is acceptable.

However for a heavy rail passenger line, the acceptable grades are alot more gradual. The route from the south and along 528 was either already built or built right along 528's Right of Way with minimal obstructions. The 9 miles from the airport to Disney Springs is highly congested, with no clear right of way except for adjacent to 417. Unless they'd go completely elevated with the railway (which becomes even costlier) there would be about a dozen intersections which would have to be completely rebuild to accommodate the tracks without a grade crossing. As an engineer with significant public works experience, I'm filing this under the 'I'll believe it when I see it' category.

Taft VIneland is almost all industrial/warehouses riding along that until 528 then crossing over to near rosen then the convention center is pretty straightforward. The southern route cuts through a lot of residential areas and there isn't as clear cut of a right of way there either. It's interesting. The intermodal terminal at the airport is on the south side, and so the brightline maintenance facility will be south of that (linking to the existing Stanton raliroad there along boggy creek rd) I don't think the billion dollar more figure that brightline said is accurate for that route. Disney is out of the way if they went 417 fully to Tampa and did not stop at Disney. A map showing both routes and additionally pointing out existing railways/right of ways would help too.

Interesting "View" of the 417 route though here:


and of the 528 route:
 
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Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
Brightline has about one billion reasons they prefer the FL 417 routes. That 17 acres helps a little out isn’t nearly enough. If Universal and the other businesses want this service then they should pay for it instead of having taxpayers pay for it or just having the project killed.
I'm not exactly sure what the 17 acres is supposed to do. Its obviously not 17 acres arranged in a mostly straight path that would be usable for train service.

Do they want BrightLine to turn around and resell the land? Why wouldn't Comcast just give them the cash if it was this big of a deal? The answer of course is that they don't really want to give any cash or land, they just don't want Disney getting a 'direct' route.
 

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
A map showing both routes and additionally pointing out existing railways/right of ways would help too.
See the post below.
Latest presentation to CFX Board has new detailed maps of proposed alignments.
  • It would leave the SunRail ROW just south of Meadow Woods station, and cut west to the Turnpike, then join SR-417 at the Turnpike interchange.
  • This map shows the line just north of the 417. Whether that's the actual location, or shown that way just for legibility, I don't know.
  • Approach to Disney has not been nailed down. It's shown as anywhere between World Center Dr. on the north, and about halfway down to Osceola Pkwy. on the south.
  • The map seems to show the DS terminus as somewhere west of BVD; i.e., the line not crossing BVD.
  • Anticipated construction start: Q2 2023
  • Anticipated revenue service first segment (including SunRail to Airport): Q3-Q4 2026
The slides are part of a large agenda packet. I pulled them out and saved them to Google Drive, which I think everyone should be able to access here:

If that doesn't work, the full file is here, with the slides starting at page 1145: https://www.cfxway.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/2021-03-11-Agenda-with-attachmentsv1-2.pdf
 

Andrew M

Well-Known Member
Taft VIneland is almost all industrial/warehouses riding along that until 528 then crossing over to near rosen then the convention center is pretty straightforward. The southern route cuts through a lot of residential areas and there isn't as clear cut of a right of way there either. It's interesting. The intermodal terminal at the airport is on the south side, and so the brightline maintenance facility will be south of that (linking to the existing Stanton raliroad there along boggy creek rd) I don't think the billion dollar more figure that brightline said is accurate for that route. Disney is out of the way if they went 417 fully to Tampa and did not stop at Disney. A map showing both routes and additionally pointing out existing railways/right of ways would help too.

Interesting "View" of the 417 route though here:


Yeah, 528 doesn't start to get tricky until you get to I-4. I'd imagine down the median would be the easiest route to Tampa, however getting the tracks into the Median and then out of it (assuming the Disney Springs station would be right next to the new southern parking garage on the West Bound side of I-4) with still have a significant amount of new/rebuilt bridges.

I always assumed the Disney Springs station would be a terminal if the 417 route was chosen.
 
In the Parks
Yes
@DisneySongbird I really enjoyed responding to your thoughtful comments!
Thank you very much! I'm always excited for the opportunity to have polite discussions on these kinds of topics.

There's been a few major points brought up since my last post, and I apologize if I miss anybody here.

On MCO being/staying the region's transportation hub: This is indeed more or less true today, but I don't really agree with the argument that it should stay true forever. The main problem with this is that airports don't make spectacular transportation hubs just by their nature. Since the airport takes up a ton of space while also limiting development around itself, it needs to be placed on the edge of the urban region (as MCO is today), which makes it an excellent terminal for a transportation spine but a very bad choice for the central hub in any kind of hub-and-spoke system.

On the Meadow Woods Station and SunRail transfers: I did some searching and while I found references to Brightline studying it at some point 5 months ago, I couldn't find any concrete commitment to a Meadow Woods Station. I actually don't like the idea of putting a Brightline station at Meadow Woods because SunRail is coming to the airport (and that appears to be much more concrete, with MCO Station being provisioned to support that SunRail extension already.) While I don't believe in MCO as the region's ultimate transportation hub, I do believe in it as the better choice for the Brightline/Sunrail transfer over Meadow Woods.

On platform access and Disney Springs Station: Hat tip to @wedenterprises for the instructive quick visual. The important thing to remember that the visual nicely illustrates is that the platforms are not necessarily the station complex; a simple platform in the middle of a freeway with connection bridge to an actual station building is a common paradigm used in a number of heavy rail projects including most of the recent extensions of my hometown WMATA Metrorail. It's not a great paradigm - many people including myself find the experience of standing on such a platform extremely unpleasant - but it is certainly a lot cheaper than the more comfortable alternative that requires pulling the rails back out of the median.

On median-running in general: Much like the 417 alignment, I personally hate median-running. I think it's cheap and lazy engineering and the profile of a freeway doesn't necessarily support rail. (I also think in this particular instance the median option is about to be thoroughly ruined by the I-4 expansion project, but that's another thread.) Sometimes it's necessary and sometimes it works serendipitously, but for the most part, no. And I don't think it's necessary here. Crossing I-4 once at 528 into an alignment that runs just west of I-4 into Disney Springs station and onto points farther south almost certainly works out much better. So too would crossing I-4 just once at Disney Springs itself on the 417 alternative.

On other future transportation initiatives in Orlando: Regardless of what happens with Brightline, there needs to be some kind of heavier dedicated transportation along I-Drive than what currently exists. We'll likely see at least a streetcar there at some point in our lives, although I carry a torch for a sleek and modern elevated railway or even just a dedicated surface transitway not beholden to general traffic. Either way, the I-Drive transit solution will connect a bunch of major employers and tourist destinations to each other on its eventual way into downtown Orlando. This route, depending on how far it stretches, would form the backbone of local transit in Orlando and Brightline should connect to this route as well to maximize the number of trips it can serve while also taking transfer pressure off the airport. And the only way Brightline can effectively connect to this route is through a transfer at the convention center.

On who Brightline is serving: I fully agree that the primary driver of this is intra-Florida air and road traffic; trains can reasonably be filled with just a share of the already very lucrative short-haul flight markets and someone who is flying from MIA to MCO today changing to the train instead is a neutral move as far as both MCO and local traffic is concerned. Having said that, I wouldn't be so quick to discount Brightline as a commuter service. Much like Amtrak in the Northeast, despite its intended audience being intercity travelers it's very possible for commuters to use the service as well. There are a number of "road warrior" types taking advantage of Amtrak's monthly pass offerings to use it as a commuter service on legs of the Northeast Corridor either unserved or poorly served by commuter rail, in addition to the obvious and popular commuter offerings up and down the line, most of which retain high ridership.

On rail service frequencies and service patterns: It's fully possible to run trains at vastly expanded frequencies than what happens today or what is currently planned for in the future, both on SunRail and on Brightline. The brand-new right of way being constructed from MCO to points west, assuming it is double tracked the whole way through and dispatched competently, can easily support the introduction of additional services and service patterns. Besides the existing hourly train from Miami to (eventually) Tampa and the second hourly train they'll add once ridership begins to soar, either Brightline or an affiliated rail operator paying for access to Brightline's tracks can add two additional trains per hour from MCO to Tampa. (If local stations are designed to sit on passing sidings, the cost goes up but so too does the potential number of trains per hour, but by the time the ridership justifies the expense it'll be much easier to go back and add such things.) These additional trains would primarily be serving the aforementioned commuter market, with Brightline's intercity/express service overtaking them as they are stopped in local stations which Brightline would have no interest in serving (such as, just glancing briefly at a map of Central FL, a Davenport park-and-ride). I suspect Brightline would be only too happy to collect generous access fees from the state for allowing the state or local governments to run such a commuter service, and as it would be a commute-oriented service, promising and delivering on a vastly expanded number of stations can occur without the associated impact on the Brightline express service.

On today's headline: Ultimately, as I said in my post yesterday, it's a lot easier to expand, improve, or fix something that's already been built than it is to build anything at all the first time, particularly now that this morning's news brings with it the unfortunate news that Brightline appears to be dead in the water again. I don't like the 417 alignment for the reasons I've outlined above, but building it and then adding a second right-of-way for the local traffic later, or building it and then realigning it later, or even building it and then completely disregarding potential improvements or expansions to the ridership market are and were vastly preferable alternatives to the selected option of "let's do nothing instead."
 

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