Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

[joelkfla]

The Miami station is meant to be a statement that is way larger than it needs to be (Then again, so is the MCO station). See Brightline's Ft. Lauderdale and West palm stations for a better reference (but I expect Disney to have theming standards).

The airport station is in an intermodal facility; pretty sure it was designed and built by the airport. Brightline did have a hand in designing the interior.

Brightline would be happy to split the costs with SunRail. They are already trying to split costs with SunRail for a lot of the CFL sections of their rail network.

Brightline stations have controlled access to waiting areas and platforms. That would be the friction point, IMHO. The station would need to be designed to segregate SunRail passengers from Brightline's, and probably have a separate platform, which could significantly increase the footprint of the station house.

Brightline wouldn't want unscreened detraining SunRail passengers having access to their trains and lounges.

 

[nickys]

It could 100% replace DME. Already, with DME, guests don't see their luggage after they check it at their first airport until it "magically" shows up in their rooms. The same could easily be done with the trains.

IF this actually happens, I could see this replacing ME. Luggage is dealt with the same way. They could easily have extra trains run directly between Disney and MCO as a contingency on awarding Brightline a DME-esque contract to ensure that a train runs out of MCO every 15-30 minutes.

Sure it will be less convenient for s decent chunk of guests, but if the price is right, I absolutely see DME being handed over to the train. Maybe even make DME an upcharge alternative to the train.

But, at the end of the day, we have a while until this is even in the realm of possibility.

Most guests don’t see their luggage at MCO. However international guests arriving at MCO have to collect their luggage for customs.

So then they’d have to re-check their bags with staff needed to tag them with bar coded labels - they don’t ship the DME luggage tags internationally. Not to mention get tickets for the train. Then, jet-lagged in many cases, and possibly very late at night, they have to get on a train and get to Disney Springs with all their carry-on luggage (no way is anyone going to hand over their lap top bags and overnight bags at MCO) and still get to their resort.

Some people would insist on taking all their luggage with them. And are they going to transport luggage 24/7

So Disney still have to man a desk at MCO 24/7, or pay someone else to, and run shuttles from DS with enough room for a lot of luggage, 24/7.

Less convenient? 100% inconvenient. And as I say some flights only arrived at MCO after midnight. That’s a whole lot of extra hassle.

Doesn’t mean it won’t replace DME. But I find it hard to believe it would actually be cheaper for Disney than the coaches. So therefore it would be a paid option, and suddenly ride-shares, taxis or even private transfer seems a whole lot more attractive. Meaning it gets even more expensive for Disney to pay for trains, staffing and shuttles.

 

[seascape]

Most guests don’t see their luggage at MCO. However international guests arriving at MCO have to collect their luggage for customs.

So then they’d have to re-check their bags with staff needed to tag them with bar coded labels - they don’t ship the DME luggage tags internationally. Not to mention get tickets for the train. Then, jet-lagged in many cases, and possibly very late at night, they have to get on a train and get to Disney Springs with all their carry-on luggage (no way is anyone going to hand over their lap top bags and overnight bags at MCO) and still get to their resort.

Some people would insist on taking all their luggage with them. And are they going to transport luggage 24/7

So Disney still have to man a desk at MCO 24/7, or pay someone else to, and run shuttles from DS with enough room for a lot of luggage, 24/7.

Less convenient? 100% inconvenient. And as I say some flights only arrived at MCO after midnight. That’s a whole lot of extra hassle.

Doesn’t mean it won’t replace DME. But I find it hard to believe it would actually be cheaper for Disney than the coaches. So therefore it would be a paid option, and suddenly ride-hares, taxis or even private transfer seems a whole lot more attractive. Meaning it gets even more expensive for Disney to pay for trains, staffing and shuttles.

We fly after work so we can start with a full day. As a result we always bring our own bags because ME won't take your luggage after 10PM. Therefore, eliminating ME would be a disaster for us.

 

[joelkfla]

I just got this new map in the CFXway (Central FL Expressway Authority) newsletter, which shows (as @UCF said a couple pages back):

• Brightline coming into Disney on 536
• SunRail (proposed) sharing tracks all the way from Innovation Way in east Orlando, thru the airport, to WDW

OK, I was wrong.

BTW, the map indicates that Brightline will not stop at Meadow Woods.

It's part of a detailed progress report on the Orlando extension:

https://www.cfxway.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/F.1.-FinalBLPresentation_CFX_11122020_revised.pdf

 

[MisterPenguin]

I just got this new map in the CFXway (Central FL Expressway Authority) newsletter, which shows (as @UCF said a couple pages back):

• Brightline coming into Disney on 536
• SunRail (proposed) sharing tracks all the way from Innovation Way in east Orlando, thru the airport, to WDW

View attachment 515342
OK, I was wrong.

BTW, the map indicates that Brightline will not stop at Meadow Woods.

It's part of a detailed progress report on the Orlando extension:

https://www.cfxway.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/F.1.-FinalBLPresentation_CFX_11122020_revised.pdf

Well, that pretty much exactly matches what I drew...

Disney buses can't handle the luggage. There's no benefit going to the DS bus terminal where there are passengers-without-luggage buses.

Wherever the train stops, there will likely be luggage-capable buses and shuttles that make the rounds of several resorts each. You wouldn't need more than six new bus bays.

Assuming the 417 right of way exists and then needs to head to DS...

View attachment 515145

Note that the land Disney owns is the purple and the faded green.

View attachment 515146

Although... if it's just a hub, and there's no reason to make DS a 'destination'.... then there are plenty of other places on the property to create a train terminal to simply be a resort hub.

 

[JoeCamel]

People are missing my point. Yes there are forward and backwards seats and they are fixed in position. When people board, they look for the forward seats, the backward seats are filled in last. Who wants to travel backwards. For example they make my wife nauseous. When the train pulls into the Disney station if its on a spur, and then leaves, the direction of travel is reversed using the engine at the other end. The seats that were forward facing from the airport are now backwards facing going to Tampa. That will cause passenger irritation.

Now if they use dedicated shuttle trains to transfer DME passengers then it wouldn't apply. Its only an issue for thru trains.

Japanese figured it out

 

[JoeCamel]

It’s not unheard of in the USA either, Amtrak keystone trains reverse in Philadelphia and Amtrak Surfliner trains reverse in LA

Every train that pulls into a terminal has to reverse out

 

[techgeek]

People are missing my point. Yes there are forward and backwards seats and they are fixed in position. When people board, they look for the forward seats, the backward seats are filled in last. Who wants to travel backwards. For example they make my wife nauseous. When the train pulls into the Disney station if its on a spur, and then leaves, the direction of travel is reversed using the engine at the other end. The seats that were forward facing from the airport are now backwards facing going to Tampa. That will cause passenger irritation.

Now if they use dedicated shuttle trains to transfer DME passengers then it wouldn't apply. Its only an issue for thru trains.

Japanese figured it out

The older Amtrak Superliners have flippable seats. Autotrain runs terminal to terminal, the cars are not turned but the seats are flipped for each run so you’re always facing forward.

 

[Twirlnhurl]

The concerns about Brightline being less convenient than DME seem overblown to me. I see no reason to expect the existing DME luggage delivery service to be discontinued upon the completion of a Brightline service to Disney Springs.

As far as the quality of the passenger experience is concerned, depending on train frequency, there is no particular reason to expect a two seat train-bus ride to take longer than the current one seat bus ride, because the bus portion of the trip would use the existing Disney Springs to hotel busses (but at a higher frequency because of higher demand). Even without higher frequency bus service, the travel times for a two seat train-bus ride are likely to be shorter than the existing DME service because there would be fewer intermediate stops.

Also, the complaint that the airport train station is far from the main terminal and gates forgets that the airport train station is in the center of the future 120 gate terminal C and D complex, where JetBlue and all international arrivals will be using in a year or two, with half of the airport traffic eventually using.

What would be the advantage to Disney of a train-bus airport connection? Labor cost. Disney would be running more busses between Disney Springs and Disney resorts, but those bus routes are shorter than any route to the airport, so the drivers are more efficient. Even without higher frequency between Disney Springs and the resorts, there would be travel time and labor cost savings.

To illustrate how this saves labor, let's imaging a simplified model of the current Bus Only system:

Disney Springs Bus to Resort A requires 1 driver who can transport up to 50 guests one way in 20 minutes. In order to provide a reasonable level of service, the buses operate at a 20 minute headway, meaning that 2 buses and 2 bus drivers are required with a maximum capacity of 150 passengers per direction per hour.
Disney Springs Bus to Resort B, C, D, E, and F also each require 1 driver who can transport up to 50 guests one way in 20 minutes with the same characteristics as the bus to resort A.

Airport Bus to Resorts A, B, and C requires 1 driver who can transport up to 50 guests one way in 60 minutes. In order to provide a reasonable level of service, the buses operate at a 20 minute headway, meaning that 6 buses and 6 bus drivers are required with a maximum capacity of 150 passengers per direction per hour. The same characteristics are true of the Airport Bus that serves resorts D, E, and F.

In this scenario, there are 24 buses and 24 bus drivers serving resorts A, B, C, D, E, and F. The passenger travel time from any resort to Disney Springs averages to 30 minutes (including a 10 minute average wait). The passenger travel time to the airport averages 70 minutes (including the 10 minute average wait).

A simplified version of the Train-Bus system would have the following characteristics:

Disney Springs Bus to Resort A requires 1 driver who can transport up to 50 guests one way in 20 minutes. In order to provide a reasonable level of service, the buses operate at a 20 minute headway, meaning that 2 buses and 2 bus drivers are required with a maximum capacity of 150 passengers per direction per hour.
Disney Springs Bus to Resort B, C, D, E, and F also each require 1 driver who can transport up to 50 guests one way in 20 minutes with the same characteristics as the bus to resort A.

Airport Train to Disney Springs requires 1 driver who can transport up to 100 guests one way in 30 minutes. In order to provide a reasonable level of service, the trains operate at a 20 minute headway, meaning that 6 trains and 6 drivers are required with a maximum capacity of 300 passengers per direction per hour.

In this scenario, there are 12 buses 6 trains and 18 bus or train drivers serving resorts A, B, C, D, E, and F. The passenger travel time from any resort to Disney Springs averages to 30 minutes (including a 10 minute average wait). The passenger travel time to the airport from any resort averages 60 minutes (including the 10 minute average wait for the train and a 10 minute average wait for the bus). Note that bus and train schedules could be coordinated to reduce the transfer time to less than 10 minutes if needed. So the time savings could be increased by another 5 minutes quite easily.

In summary, a two seat ride would reduce labor by 25% and reduce travel time to the airport by 15%. The train portion of the ride would also have less potential for traffic delays and would be a more comfortable ride than the bus.

I understand that DME is not staffed by Disney employees, but we can assume the labor cost gets passed on to Disney through the cost of the contract with Mears. A similar arrangement could be assumed to be created between Disney and Brightline. I am aware that train operators make more money than bus drivers, but the capacity of the train is more than twice the capacity of a bus, so the labor productivity increases are still probably meaningful.

Factor in the other benefits including increased visitation to Disney Springs, traffic congestion avoidance, and a higher quality experience between the airport and WDW makes Disney's side of the agreement look pretty easy to justify.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Every train that pulls into a terminal has to reverse out

Technically yes, but most terminals in the USA are built on a wye. And Philadelphia is not a terminal station but the keystone trains pull in and reverse (with cab controls) out.

I was using examples of the seat issue specifically where trains reverse direction mid route.

 

[maxairmike]

I just got this new map in the CFXway (Central FL Expressway Authority) newsletter, which shows (as @UCF said a couple pages back):

• Brightline coming into Disney on 536
• SunRail (proposed) sharing tracks all the way from Innovation Way in east Orlando, thru the airport, to WDW

View attachment 515342
OK, I was wrong.

BTW, the map indicates that Brightline will not stop at Meadow Woods.

It's part of a detailed progress report on the Orlando extension:

https://www.cfxway.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/F.1.-FinalBLPresentation_CFX_11122020_revised.pdf

So it will be a spur station. I still have a hard time finding an "easy path" onto the 417 routing from Meadow Woods because of the massive Whirlpool building and one other taking up the corner where a turn would work best, and apartment complexes on the other 3 sides. Can't wait to see more detailed pathing plans.

EDIT: And after looking at it more and seeing that it will be a spur station, I'm leaning towards the station being located on the Strawberry lot. How I see it working: They'll bump the lanes on 536 out a bit on either side to allow the trains to run at ground level at about the Holiday Inn (former Nick Hotel) to the I-4 overpass, maintaining that elevation or a bit higher and then curving over the ramps from WB I-4, alongside the Springs exit ramp and over BVD, passing right over or between the West Side bus loop and Cirque into the station. Leaving the station to Tampa, it will head out over Epcot Center Dr, cross the E/W ramp, then either down to ground level or elevated along the WB ramp to cross over/under the Osceola Pkwy ramp, and then down into the median. Depending on the median spacing (and additional/rebuilt ramps) for Beyond the Ultimate I-4, it may remain elevated for a good stretch down to 27.

EDIT x2: For the visually inclined, ignore the very squiggly line, unsteady finger on a trackpad. lol

 

[maxairmike]

I'm not sure you know what a spur is.

CSX.com - Railroad Dictionary

CSX is a leading supplier of rail-based freight transportation in North America. But there's more to CSX than you might expect. Learn all about CSX and discover what we're doing for our customers, environment and communities. Visit http://www.csx.com/.

www.csx.com

Semantics. Whatever, a not in one side, directly out the other station. Everyone knows what is meant in context and that's what I've always heard it called.

EDIT: Yes, it fits the definition, because this will be a dead end. Pull in, reverse out. Terminal station might be the technically correct term, but it isn't the end (or beginning) of the line which is where I generally use that.

 

[UCF]

I highly doubt trains on the regional route (i.e. outside the Miami metro) will even be every hour. I'd expect 3-5 trains a day between the non-Miami stops. This isn't meant for commuting, it's meant for day and weekend trips, really, and the occasional business trip between FL cities.

My understanding is they're looking at between 17-20 trains per day. Perhaps even a couple extra for the MCO-Disney segment if it replaces DME. It is not feasible to build at 3-5 trains per day. It must be more convenient then air and vehicle travel, and it won't be without a lot of trips per day.

With the Luggage problem, they could always go down the route of the Eurostar at Paris, where you can leave luggage at the train station for it to be taken by Disney to your hotel, which leaves you free to go to the Parks straight away? In that case almost more convenient sounding than DME?

Brightline already offers checked luggage and combined with what DME already offers, it seems likely that would be the case. Brightline is among the most full service trains out there...

All the people saying Disney won't do it because there's a possibility it may be slightly slower are ignoring all the positives it would provide as part of the Magical Express experience:
- The waiting area will be in a beautiful lounge. The trains have much larger, more comfortable seats, with tables. This isn't a cramped motorcoach with no amenities on board. Both while waiting and onboard you'll have access to bathrooms, food and drink service.
- Obviously, many avoid DME and use rideshare services to and from the airport because of those conditions and the non-direct uncomfortable ride. Since boarding a luxury train that travels 100+ mph will be part of the experience rather then just a free way to get to the destination, people will be less likely to go with alternative options, increasing the likelihood you stay on property.
- If you want an even more upgraded experience, one reason why people don't use DME, they have the VIP service that includes even bigger more comfortable seats, food, drink and VIP lounges while you wait for the train, again providing a way better experience then any existing service for someone who doesn't desire having a car on the vacation. This converts DME from being the cheap/free option to being more of an experience. Brightline's trains are even given a color just like the monorails.
- We're looking at about a 22 minute travel time from when you get into the train to arriving at Disney, regardless of traffic. I personally haven't used DME (as an Orlando local), but my understanding is the it usually takes 45 minutes to 90 minutes from when you board the bus to arrive at your hotel. Obviously the 22 minutes is just to Disney Springs and you'll still need to get to the hotel, but they still got 25-60 minutes to get you from Disney Springs to your hotel now to match the time of the old DME service. Thats obviously easily doable and in most cases they can beat that. Not only do they have that travel time advantage from the airport to Disney with guaranteed no traffic, once you arrive, instead of using an inefficient loop to have one bus hit all the resorts, they can use a hub and spoke design to have direct routes to the different resorts, cutting more travel time down, on average (not if you happen to be the first stop on the bus, but if you're not... then yes). These buses will be sitting and waiting when the train arrives... they're dropping people off right before the train arrives. They're on more of a set schedule for arrivals/departures. There shouldn't be much time waiting for a bus, only the time it takes to transfer from the train to the bus.
This means even if the trains only run once per hour, the worst case scenario with that full hour wait for the train is probably similar to the current "slow" time of DME (2 hours from arrival/checkin to arriving at hotel). The best case time is also similar. If they run the trains at the same frequency as DME, the train easily wins on average.

Disney's only rule when it comes to outside connections is "no connecting to Uni/I-Drive/SeaWorld/OCC." SunRail doesn't connect to that, so I see no reason why they'd be opposed to it.

My understanding is Disney really wanted only 2 stops in Orlando: MCO and Disney for it to be considered to replace DME bus service. Adding an additional stop will require the train to have a much slower travel time, in both acceleration/deceleration time in addition to the stopped time, and make it feel like less of a "Disney" service. The very act of stopping somewhere not Disney related could introduce the thought into a travellers mind that there is an Orlando outside of Disney.

Its not just the areas you mentioned... in the old days, before Downtown Disney/Pleasure Island, Downtown Orlando was able to capture a fair number of Disney visitors. Opening up that possibility isn't something Disney wants. Disney's worked hard to stop that.

Brightline stations have controlled access to waiting areas and platforms. That would be the friction point, IMHO. The station would need to be designed to segregate SunRail passengers from Brightline's, and probably have a separate platform, which could significantly increase the footprint of the station house.

Brightline wouldn't want unscreened detraining SunRail passengers having access to their trains and lounges.

Yup, not only that but my understanding is Sunrail trains have different loading heights then Brightline, so they the platforms are not sharable.

Sunrail would need to somehow convince Disney to let them on the property even if they have rights to the tracks... I don't think its going to be snuck in. My best guess is Sunrail could threaten to put stops at, say, Gaylord Palms or some other resort that will have transfers into Disney if they refuse, this is a tactic I understand Brightline did. I don't know if it will work for them too, they're offering a lot less then Brightline. Of course, I imagine the counties have some other tactics they could use to push Disney around a little bit on how they spend money around Disney's property on other infrastructure.

I just got this new map in the CFXway (Central FL Expressway Authority) newsletter, which shows (as @UCF said a couple pages back):

• Brightline coming into Disney on 536
• SunRail (proposed) sharing tracks all the way from Innovation Way in east Orlando, thru the airport, to WDW

OK, I was wrong.

BTW, the map indicates that Brightline will not stop at Meadow Woods.

It's part of a detailed progress report on the Orlando extension:

https://www.cfxway.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/F.1.-FinalBLPresentation_CFX_11122020_revised.pdf

Yup, you weren't completely wrong... Meadow Woods was originally planned as a stop, my understanding is Disney didn't want it. The local governments involved all really, really want Sunrail to have an airport connection and the Meadow Woods was previously the proposal to appease it until they could find funding to connect Sunrail proper to the airport. Brightline is offering up their tracks to try to share some costs, eliminate the stop to appease Disney, and maybe even have a few additional stops to feed the train at the airport. They don't wish to operate this other line... infact, Orlando has turned away other privately owned rail services from locally servicing the local area, they want it to be a government service. I do agree this route is far from ideal, but Orlando just wants to say we offered this new extension to connect the airport. I haven't seen that picture so thanks for sharing that!

 

[maxairmike]

My understanding is they're looking at between 17-20 trains per day. Perhaps even a couple extra for the MCO-Disney segment if it replaces DME. It is not feasible to build at 3-5 trains per day. It must be more convenient then air and vehicle travel, and it won't be without a lot of trips per day.

Maybe there's a big business-based demand for Tampa-Orlando, and Miami as well (not nearly as plugged into that side), but I just can't see the demand for that many trips for leisure outside of the initial novelty period. If a Lakeland station is thrown in, I could maybe see up to 15 on the very high end, but unless Disney offers a baggage service and/or extends DME services to include it at the airport...I don't see it being super attractive for weekend vacations vs. driving for the target markets. Maybe I'm vastly underestimating (and I would like to be wrong and that there's a serious demand for this kind of transit!), but that much traffic just doesn't seem to make sense from my view. Obviously the more times the better for convenience, but I don't see them being that full of leisure folks outside of 3-6 trains. In Tampa I think what's most important is what connection is offered to BGT and the beaches, as that's clearly what most leisure travel to Tampa is for. Given the hypothetical downtown location for that station, it doesn't make it convenient for either vs. driving IMO, so I don't expect there to be as much demand in that direction. I like the idea of train transit and want it to work, but just looking at the hypothetical location of the Tampa station, I would rather just drive to BGT/the beach than deal with the station to destination step in Tampa. If they run late on event nights, it could be great for concerts and Lightning games, though (hint hint, SunRail!).

 

[joelkfla]

Semantics. Whatever, a not in one side, directly out the other station. Everyone knows what is meant in context and that's what I've always heard it called.

EDIT: Yes, it fits the definition, because this will be a dead end. Pull in, reverse out. Terminal station might be the technically correct term, but it isn't the end (or beginning) of the line which is where I generally use that.

I believe the proper term is a stub-end station, as opposed to a run-through station. But it's all good.

 

[nickys]

The concerns about Brightline being less convenient than DME seem overblown to me. I see no reason to expect the existing DME luggage delivery service to be discontinued upon the completion of a Brightline service to Disney Springs.

As far as the quality of the passenger experience is concerned, depending on train frequency, there is no particular reason to expect a two seat train-bus ride to take longer than the current one seat bus ride, because the bus portion of the trip would use the existing Disney Springs to hotel busses (but at a higher frequency because of higher demand). Even without higher frequency bus service, the travel times for a two seat train-bus ride are likely to be shorter than the existing DME service because there would be fewer intermediate stops.

Also, the complaint that the airport train station is far from the main terminal and gates forgets that the airport train station is in the center of the future 120 gate terminal C and D complex, where JetBlue and all international arrivals will be using in a year or two, with half of the airport traffic eventually using.

What would be the advantage to Disney of a train-bus airport connection? Labor cost. Disney would be running more busses between Disney Springs and Disney resorts, but those bus routes are shorter than any route to the airport, so the drivers are more efficient. Even without higher frequency between Disney Springs and the resorts, there would be travel time and labor cost savings.

To illustrate how this saves labor, let's imaging a simplified model of the current Bus Only system:

Disney Springs Bus to Resort A requires 1 driver who can transport up to 50 guests one way in 20 minutes. In order to provide a reasonable level of service, the buses operate at a 20 minute headway, meaning that 2 buses and 2 bus drivers are required with a maximum capacity of 150 passengers per direction per hour.
Disney Springs Bus to Resort B, C, D, E, and F also each require 1 driver who can transport up to 50 guests one way in 20 minutes with the same characteristics as the bus to resort A.

Airport Bus to Resorts A, B, and C requires 1 driver who can transport up to 50 guests one way in 60 minutes. In order to provide a reasonable level of service, the buses operate at a 20 minute headway, meaning that 6 buses and 6 bus drivers are required with a maximum capacity of 150 passengers per direction per hour. The same characteristics are true of the Airport Bus that serves resorts D, E, and F.

In this scenario, there are 24 buses and 24 bus drivers serving resorts A, B, C, D, E, and F. The passenger travel time from any resort to Disney Springs averages to 30 minutes (including a 10 minute average wait). The passenger travel time to the airport averages 70 minutes (including the 10 minute average wait).

A simplified version of the Train-Bus system would have the following characteristics:

Disney Springs Bus to Resort A requires 1 driver who can transport up to 50 guests one way in 20 minutes. In order to provide a reasonable level of service, the buses operate at a 20 minute headway, meaning that 2 buses and 2 bus drivers are required with a maximum capacity of 150 passengers per direction per hour.
Disney Springs Bus to Resort B, C, D, E, and F also each require 1 driver who can transport up to 50 guests one way in 20 minutes with the same characteristics as the bus to resort A.

Airport Train to Disney Springs requires 1 driver who can transport up to 100 guests one way in 30 minutes. In order to provide a reasonable level of service, the trains operate at a 20 minute headway, meaning that 6 trains and 6 drivers are required with a maximum capacity of 300 passengers per direction per hour.

In this scenario, there are 12 buses 6 trains and 18 bus or train drivers serving resorts A, B, C, D, E, and F. The passenger travel time from any resort to Disney Springs averages to 30 minutes (including a 10 minute average wait). The passenger travel time to the airport from any resort averages 60 minutes (including the 10 minute average wait for the train and a 10 minute average wait for the bus). Note that bus and train schedules could be coordinated to reduce the transfer time to less than 10 minutes if needed. So the time savings could be increased by another 5 minutes quite easily.

In summary, a two seat ride would reduce labor by 25% and reduce travel time to the airport by 15%. The train portion of the ride would also have less potential for traffic delays and would be a more comfortable ride than the bus.

I understand that DME is not staffed by Disney employees, but we can assume the labor cost gets passed on to Disney through the cost of the contract with Mears. A similar arrangement could be assumed to be created between Disney and Brightline. I am aware that train operators make more money than bus drivers, but the capacity of the train is more than twice the capacity of a bus, so the labor productivity increases are still probably meaningful.

Factor in the other benefits including increased visitation to Disney Springs, traffic congestion avoidance, and a higher quality experience between the airport and WDW makes Disney's side of the agreement look pretty easy to justify.

Disney would presumably also be responsible for a significant part of the rail line maintenance costs as part of the contract.

The buses used for DME are not Disney buses, so there’s another expense for buying and maintaining a fleet of buses with room for luggage. The existing Disney buses aren’t equipped for that, and using them would make the Covid bus capacity look luxurious in comparison.

DME can be run to meet expected demand, due to the booking system. Trains can’t do that. Guests could be asked to book the train but a flight delay or underestimating how long immigration and customs take would mean a significant number of guests would miss their intended train. That could result in a severely over-crowded train or people waiting for a long time for the next one.

Are you thinking they run this 24/7, including the trains? @UCF suggested they’re looking at 17-20 trains a day. That’s less than one an hour. a replacement DME is going to need 2-3 per hour at peak times, plus through the night. How much luggage space do the trains have? There will be lots of large cases as well as carry-on, especially during the night hours.

And they would still need their 24/7 airport desk with a whole extra set of duties, like issuing the train tickets.

 

[Robbiem]

With the Luggage problem, they could always go down the route of the Eurostar at Paris, where you can leave luggage at the train station for it to be taken by Disney to your hotel, which leaves you free to go to the Parks straight away? In that case almost more convenient sounding than DME?

I’ve been to a few places like this. In Tokyo Disney you can check in at the welcome center next to the station leave you luggage get your room keys and buy your park passes so you only take bags a short distance and they travel separately from you. In Japan people often send luggage by Takubin delivery service from their home or the airport to their hotel or between hotels when travelling

in Hong Kong city the airport express line has check in services for several airports at the city stations. You can check your baggage and get your boarding cards etc before you get the train so you arrive at the airport with hand baggage and don’t see your luggage until you get to your destination travelling in reverse from the airport there are free buses to transport you to hotels in the city included in the fare. If you’re visiting Macau you can send baggage direct from Hong Kong airport without collecting it and retrieve it at the hydrofoil terminal in Macau, going in reverse you can do the same and check you bags in Macau through to your destination. If you go from Hong Kong to Macau by hydrofoil there are waiting buses to take you to your casino resort.

There is no reason why Disney couldn’t do similar, for arrivals a check in service at MCO with passengers travelling by train to the resort and their luggage going separately and being delivered straight to their room. In reverse luggage could be collected from passengers rooms and transported to the airport leaving them free to take the train. Alternatively the major airlines could have check in facilities at the station for baggage. (I remember checking in for our UK flight at the then Disney Village marketplace). If security regulations allow you could have hotel to home airport luggage check in.

most of this would be easily achievable it only requires the will to out the systems in place. What will be interesting will be how the Disney springs, Bonnet Creek and swan/dolphin four seasons treat the train service. It could be a viable option for DME for some if you can check in at the airport then take the train rather than an uber to your resort

 

[Sir_Cliff]

Most guests don’t see their luggage at MCO. However international guests arriving at MCO have to collect their luggage for customs.

So then they’d have to re-check their bags with staff needed to tag them with bar coded labels - they don’t ship the DME luggage tags internationally. Not to mention get tickets for the train. Then, jet-lagged in many cases, and possibly very late at night, they have to get on a train and get to Disney Springs with all their carry-on luggage (no way is anyone going to hand over their lap top bags and overnight bags at MCO) and still get to their resort.

Some people would insist on taking all their luggage with them. And are they going to transport luggage 24/7

So Disney still have to man a desk at MCO 24/7, or pay someone else to, and run shuttles from DS with enough room for a lot of luggage, 24/7.

Less convenient? 100% inconvenient. And as I say some flights only arrived at MCO after midnight. That’s a whole lot of extra hassle.

Doesn’t mean it won’t replace DME. But I find it hard to believe it would actually be cheaper for Disney than the coaches. So therefore it would be a paid option, and suddenly ride-shares, taxis or even private transfer seems a whole lot more attractive. Meaning it gets even more expensive for Disney to pay for trains, staffing and shuttles.

Here in Europe it's pretty standard to arrive at a city and catch the train into the centre of town, taking public transport or a taxi onward if necessary. However, at least in my experience, if you're tired and/or have a lot of luggage the temptation to just pay for a cab or an Uber often wins outs.

Looking at the logistics of this, it seems very analogous to me. Maybe for domestic guests it will work as a replacement for DME, though having to take a train and a bus also doesn't seem like the carefree transportation solution Disney promotes with DME. For many international guests dealing with luggage and kids after a long flight, it will seem like a lot of hassle akin to flying into any major city rather than a resort experience.

 

[halltd]

So it will be a spur station. I still have a hard time finding an "easy path" onto the 417 routing from Meadow Woods because of the massive Whirlpool building and one other taking up the corner where a turn would work best, and apartment complexes on the other 3 sides. Can't wait to see more detailed pathing plans.

EDIT: And after looking at it more and seeing that it will be a spur station, I'm leaning towards the station being located on the Strawberry lot. How I see it working: They'll bump the lanes on 536 out a bit on either side to allow the trains to run at ground level at about the Holiday Inn (former Nick Hotel) to the I-4 overpass, maintaining that elevation or a bit higher and then curving over the ramps from WB I-4, alongside the Springs exit ramp and over BVD, passing right over or between the West Side bus loop and Cirque into the station. Leaving the station to Tampa, it will head out over Epcot Center Dr, cross the E/W ramp, then either down to ground level or elevated along the WB ramp to cross over/under the Osceola Pkwy ramp, and then down into the median. Depending on the median spacing (and additional/rebuilt ramps) for Beyond the Ultimate I-4, it may remain elevated for a good stretch down to 27.

EDIT x2: For the visually inclined, ignore the very squiggly line, unsteady finger on a trackpad. lol

View attachment 515425

I would keep it on the I4 side of Springs to avoid even more elevated rail crossing over BVD, etc... With your map, I think it'd still be possible to follow the entrance ramp North to end up near Speedway. It makes more sense to me to keep transit and parking where there's already a garage and parking lots. The Strawberry lot should be reserved for Springs shopping or entertainment expansion. IMHO at least.

I really hope Casting and Team Disney stay, though. Two of my favorite Disney buildings.

 

[Twirlnhurl]

Disney would presumably also be responsible for a significant part of the rail line maintenance costs as part of the contract.

The buses used for DME are not Disney buses, so there’s another expense for buying and maintaining a fleet of buses with room for luggage. The existing Disney buses aren’t equipped for that, and using them would make the Covid bus capacity look luxurious in comparison.

DME can be run to meet expected demand, due to the booking system. Trains can’t do that. Guests could be asked to book the train but a flight delay or underestimating how long immigration and customs take would mean a significant number of guests would miss their intended train. That could result in a severely over-crowded train or people waiting for a long time for the next one.

Are you thinking they run this 24/7, including the trains? @UCF suggested they’re looking at 17-20 trains a day. That’s less than one an hour. a replacement DME is going to need 2-3 per hour at peak times, plus through the night. How much luggage space do the trains have? There will be lots of large cases as well as carry-on, especially during the night hours.

And they would still need their 24/7 airport desk with a whole extra set of duties, like issuing the train tickets.

Again, I would assume that the luggage service would have no change from the current system and therefore have no change in cost. Currently most luggage is transported in vehicles that only transport luggage, not the DME busses. On the times I've seen it, it was a large cargo van. But that was a few years ago, so I am not sure if that is what DME uses for luggage these days. If a train service were instituted, I would expect this to continue. However, it is possible that the luggage would be transported by train in the trains luggage compartment as well. I think this is less likely, however.

I would not expect the Brightline express service between MCO and Disney Springs to use advance reservations or advance seat assignments. Instead, I think it is most likely that passengers would select a seat upon arrival at the train station or that the train would not offer assigned seating. In my experience riding trains in Asia, seat selection for a frequent service train line is not generally made in advance.

Guests who chose to bring their baggage on to the train will have a baggage parking area to leave it in on the train. Or it might be lifted above the seats. I've seen both ways.

I do not think that Disney has committed to paying for any track maintenance. Remember that Brightline does not own these tracks. These tracks are owned by FEC, the freight railroad. I would expect these tracks to be maintained by FEC and have that maintenance paid for by the freight transport fees and track age rights paid by Brightline.

I would expect the service to run frequently during the day and either infrequently at night or be replaced with a bus at night. If it doesn't run at night, it would still be a good deal for Disney and most guests, because most flights do not get in over night.

The flexibility concern is easier to deal with by train, because the cost of the train capacity is not directly tied to capacity the way a bus is. If Disney needs to tackle an unexpected demand surge with busses, they will need one employee for every 60 guests, because the capacity is so constrained. On short bus routes, this isn't a big deal because the driver can serve the route multiple times in an hour, but on long routes it is. Because the train requires a fixed staff to operate for 5 or 500 passengers, it is cost effective to build in more capacity than is needed in order to deal with demand surges because there is minimal operating cost impacts. Busses do not provide this luxury.