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News Guest dies, found unresponsive after riding Stardust Racers

cjkeating

Well-Known Member
Yes, in Paris. (Technically it’s gone by other names but the space mountain type of ride in Paris, yes! Haha)
Just to help you out. I think some confusion on modern coaster comes from the fact that the “lap bar” actually goes over your shoulders from above. It’s like this on Mack and Intamin coasters but they don’t have vests. On Vekoma the restraint goes over your shoulder wings a vest. But the thing holding you in is the lap bar. Not the vest.
 

Mr. Sullivan

Well-Known Member
It’s been awhile since I rode coasters - I’m not understanding why a ride like this has no shoulder harnesses.
Over the shoulder restraints are often uncomfortable for riders and can be dangerous on their own for variety of reasons. As coasters got more intense, the preference was to move toward a restraint that holds you in at the waist rather than the shoulders. This not only confines riders at their center of gravity, it eliminates the issues that come with shoulder harnesses.

Extreme coasters with these waist restraints are perfectly safe. What I believe this is ultimately going to come down to is a combination of a few factors:

1. The rider's pre-existing mobility issues
2. A restraint design that is accommodating to most, not all
3. Lack of clarity on the part of the TMs and the rider both about how his condition determined his eligibility to ride (which is the fault of neither party)

Those three things acting in combination with each other would result in this outcome.

I don't at all think that Stardust Racers is an unsafe attraction, that it's restraints are faulty, that the ride was designed incorrectly, or that this has anything to do with the suitability of the ride to be ridden.

I think it's just as simple as this man shouldn't have been allowed to ride it in the first place because the nature of his disabilities were such that it was a potentially unsafe ride for him. Though he had no missing limbs and was able to transfer into the train, it sounds as if his disability meant that if he lost consciousness during the ride, his body would behave differently to that of someone who does not have that disability. That would explain why he was fine all the other times he rode the attraction, but not this time.

I think the ride itself is fine. I think this is, unfortunately, an error on Universal's part for allowing him onto the attraction.
 

Mr. Sullivan

Well-Known Member
Again, do you have a source? This is completely opposite of what they tell you in a car, where lap belts have not been used for a long time.
You can just look it up and find all sorts of sources that explain how waist restraints and over the shoulder restraints offer the same safety.

I think what's confusing you is you're thinking we're talking about a lap bar and we are not. Riders are restrained at the waist, but not by a lap bar. They are restrained at the waist by a restraint that comes down over their head but instead of settling down on their shoulders, it settles down on their lap.

Just look at photos of the trains for Thunderhead at Dollywood (a traditional lap bar) and the trains for VelociCoaster (the kind of waist restraint we're talking about) and you'll see a very clear difference between the two.
 

disneylandtour

Well-Known Member
, it sounds as if his disability meant that if he lost consciousness during the ride, his body would behave differently to that of someone who does not have that disability. That would explain why he was fine all the other times he rode the attraction, but not this time.
I agree with most of your views here, except this. Passing out (not graying out) is uncommon. But still happens. This is usually a loss of consciousness caused by g-force. Over all of its Florida rides, Disney sees around 20 riders who are reported unconscious (and usually sent to the hospital) per year. I don't know how many of these are coasters or thrill rides--heat also plays a factor. In terms of Universal, the restraint system is supposed to protect riders who have passed out in a way they are safe inside their seats as the coaster finishes its circuit. This should be true for ADA riders and riders who are amputees (within the defined specs for both categories). It looks like this didn't happen here. If there was some underlying health factor that contributed to his death, we would've heard about it with the initial medical report. And it wasn't in there.
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
I think some confusion on modern coaster comes from the fact that the “lap bar” actually goes over your shoulders from above.
that is not a lap bar - it’s a shoulder harness correct?

Either way…. My point is and was - the restraint system used on space mountain Paris seems like it would have prevented this tragedy.
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
that is not a lap bar - it’s a shoulder harness correct?

Either way…. My point is and was - the restraint system used on space mountain Paris seems like it would have prevented this tragedy.
It's not. If you look at Velocicoaster, while the restraint comes down over your shoulder, there is no upper body restraint. It rests on your lap only.

There is no guarantee an over the shoulder restraint would have changed anything. He would have likely been hitting his head on the shoulder restraints. It would have likely ended up the same.
 

disneylandtour

Well-Known Member
It's not. If you look at Velocicoaster, while the restraint comes down over your shoulder, there is no upper body restraint. It rests on your lap only.

There is no guarantee an over the shoulder restraint would have changed anything. He would have likely been hitting his head on the shoulder restraints. It would have likely ended up the same.
It might be better to describe these as "to the side" of the shoulder systems that then focus the restraint element on the lap, stomach, and thighs. The bars don't protect the shoulder areas. But the seating area also has curved areas around the shoulders, which should pin in your shoulders some. The padded area is fairly high, so it "should" help pin in your torso. It is a very tight system compared to other coasters. If there is forward momentum, the upper body should remain in the seat, especially with the side shoulder elements and the high restraint. If you pass out, your head maybe can flop forward; your arms might move freely. But something clearly did not work here. For comparison, the Volocicoaster has a similar system, but it's looser and the seat curves are around the hips, not the shoulders.
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
I’m not talking about velocicoaster…. How many times do I have to mention “the restrains on space mountain in Paris”
Those aren't much better. While the keep you from moving around, it also no better than the lap bar/shin guard restraints.
My biggest issue with having over the shoulder restraints on every extreme coaster is you then don't feel any forces.
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
It might be better to describe these as "to the side" of the shoulder systems that then focus the restraint element on the lap, stomach, and thighs. The bars don't protect the shoulder areas. But the seating area also has curved areas around the shoulders, which should pin in your shoulders some. The padded area is fairly high, so it "should" help pin in your torso. It is a very tight system compared to other coasters. If there is forward momentum, the upper body should remain in the seat, especially with the side shoulder elements and the high restraint. If you pass out, your head maybe can flop forward; your arms might move freely. But something clearly did not work here. For comparison, the Volocicoaster has a similar system, but it's looser and the seat curves are around the hips, not the shoulders.
THats the point with most of these new systems, is that they keep you secure but your body can also feel the G forces. It's why most new coasters have gone to the lap bar and shin guards. They keep you in the train but you can lift off your seat
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
To be fair - I haven’t ridden velocicoaster so I don’t know how similar or different they are.
That's the restraints from Velocicoaster.
1000000629.jpg
 

AidenRodriguez731

Well-Known Member
Maybe? We’re willing to take far greater risks every day for convenience. 200+ people have died in the US since in this incident due to motor vehicles. A good 40% of them were pedestrians.
Season 6 What GIF by The Office


Pardon? Am I hearing you right?

What kind of defense is that???

Coasters are a controlled environment that is supposed to be under control of engineering EXPERTS?

This is a death within less than 1/2 a year and even if the problem is the coasters fault, your solution is????
Oh well???

I mean how heartless and just horrible does that sound.
 

mergatroid

Well-Known Member
Season 6 What GIF by The Office


Pardon? Am I hearing you right?

What kind of defense is that???

Coasters are a controlled environment that is supposed to be under control of engineering EXPERTS?

This is a death within less than 1/2 a year and even if the problem is the coasters fault, your solution is????
Oh well???

I mean how heartless and just horrible does that sound.
It's almost like saying "Well we're all going to die at some point aren't we, may as well go on a roller coaster"
 

disneylandtour

Well-Known Member
Season 6 What GIF by The Office


Pardon? Am I hearing you right?

What kind of defense is that???

Coasters are a controlled environment that is supposed to be under control of engineering EXPERTS?

This is a death within less than 1/2 a year and even if the problem is the coasters fault, your solution is????
Oh well???

I mean how heartless and just horrible does that sound.
Exactly. Coasters are optional amusements that are highly regulated. Car transportation--though potentially dangerous--is typically viewed as an essential activity. For the most part, auto transportation is to take people to work, the store, get food, go to appointments, etc. These are not the same thing at all and shouldn't be compared.
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
Season 6 What GIF by The Office


Pardon? Am I hearing you right?

What kind of defense is that???

Coasters are a controlled environment that is supposed to be under control of engineering EXPERTS?

This is a death within less than 1/2 a year and even if the problem is the coasters fault, your solution is????
Oh well???

I mean how heartless and just horrible does that sound.
This isn't the first time a death has happened on a coaster. A year after Superman opened at Darien Lake a man fell out of his seat and died.

You know what they did to fix it. Nothing.
Same with the second death on the same coaster.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Season 6 What GIF by The Office


Pardon? Am I hearing you right?

What kind of defense is that???

Coasters are a controlled environment that is supposed to be under control of engineering EXPERTS?

This is a death within less than 1/2 a year and even if the problem is the coasters fault, your solution is????
Oh well???

I mean how heartless and just horrible does that sound.
It’s not a defense because we don’t know what happened. Therefore it is premature to be demanding changes and placing blame (which you seem so eager to do).
 

disneylandtour

Well-Known Member
THats the point with most of these new systems, is that they keep you secure but your body can also feel the G forces. It's why most new coasters have gone to the lap bar and shin guards. They keep you in the train but you can lift off your seat
And so in this, I'm so confused as to what hit him multiple times to cause repeated blunt force trauma. The body shouldn't bend like that in these restraint systems, unless something else went very wrong.
 

DisneyHead123

Well-Known Member
You can just look it up and find all sorts of sources that explain how waist restraints and over the shoulder restraints offer the same safety.

I haven't seen anything objective, just opinion pieces. To be fair it would be a difficult area to study.

My thought is this - the baseline condition of any roller coaster should be safety, obviously. Under multiple test conditions with test dummies, we should see that the specific velocity, movement, etc. of a given coaster makes a lap restraint perfectly safe for those very specific conditions.

That said, if for some reason baseline conditions are deviated from - as they might have been in this scenario - common sense / analogies to cars would seem to indicate that over the should restraints are safer. If (if) this man died from swinging forward and hitting his forehead on the lap restraint or the seat in front of him, that likely would not have been possible with shoulder restraints. His head might have bounced between the restraints but the amount of momentum between a head moving a few centimeters side to side and a couple of feet to the front is huge.
 

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