Great watch: The Senseless Death of EPCOT

[KaliSplash]

So where we are is to accept what is at Epcot for what it is today. I love Missions:Space, still like SpaceShip Earth even though I prefer the Walter Cronkite version, love Soaring, I like Test Track and enjoy Frozen even as I miss Norway.
And the Voices of Liberty are still there, along with the American Adventure.
So Epcot is still worth my time, even though it's not what it started out to be.

 

[flynnibus]

The myth of outdated Epcot[...]

I don't buy the idea that contemporary audiences wouldn't still enjoy the original Journey Into Imagination or World of Motion as long as they were updated in the same manner as Pirates or HM.

Wait.. you call it a myth they were outdated... then change the table to say 'well if they were updated...'.

It was no myth - the 70s design was outdated for the period by the 90s and would have been a disaster in the 2000s onward.

You can't compare the narrative of the Living Seas or UoE to the fantasy tales of ghosts and pirates. POTC and HM get updates to keep them refreshed to help keep them running and add new charm.. but they don't change the core premise that it's a haunted house experience, etc. The narratives of the original EPCOT pavilions couldn't get by with simple technology updates - they needed overhauls of stagecraft AND message/purpose. You can't escape that you can't push the notion of Kodak film anymore.. or ignore the idea of how people create memories or relive them has changed.

Some core ride concepts could have been kept relevant and stagecraft could keep them impressive - but not all could have been saved, and certainly there was no myth to the tale of their accelerated aging vs society and tech. The 80s and early 90s changed personal access and perspectives to information and media at a pace like no period before it.

Trust me.. I want horizons and JIYI back like crazy - like Spaceship earth they could have been modernized and tweaked to stay relevant to modern audiences.. but you can't ignore their staleness nor push it off as some Iger scheme.

Times had changed - and Futureworld was not timeless.

The highly atmospheric and ambitious, substantial nature of these attractions was what made them appealing, not the educational value. That came second, as Disney Imagineers have been pretty upfront about creating an inspiring experience first, with the education following.

Yeah, but you are taking that from the perspective of a theme park fan.. not just a theme park visitor. Fans are great - but they don't pay the bills.

 

[Thelazer]

JIYI was never really stale... IMHO.

 

[Casper Gutman]

JIYI was never really stale... IMHO.

Neither was WoM. Or even Kitchen Kabaret or Cranium, really. The entire “stale EPCOT” argument rests largely on Horizons, Communicore, and UoE. The latter two, of course, were left to fester for decades after they became outdated, decades after vastly superior attractions were destroyed. Horizons would have needed an update, probably one that focused the whole ride on “past visions of the future.” But if Horizons, UoE, and Communicore had all gone while JII, WoM, Kitchen, and Cranium stayed, I don’t think you’d hear anything like the same complaints. The “outdated” argument holds no water - what happened to EPCOT was in no way directed at the outdated elements, it was haphazard, panicked destruction.

And if anyone tells you Mission and Test are more “timeless” then what they replaced, well… probably best not to take their opinions too seriously. Mission in particular is the worst ride WDW has ever built by a wide margin.

 

[networkpro]

Neither was WoM. Or even Kitchen Kabaret or Cranium, really. The entire “stale EPCOT” argument rests largely on Horizons, Communicore, and UoE. The latter two, of course, were left to fester for decades after they became outdated, decades after vastly superior attractions were destroyed. Horizons would have needed an update, probably one that focused the whole ride on “past visions of the future.” But if Horizons, UoE, and Communicore had all gone while JII, WoM, Kitchen, and Cranium stayed, I don’t think you’d hear anything like the same complaints. The “outdated” argument holds no water - what happened to EPCOT was in no way directed at the outdated elements, it was haphazard, panicked destruction.

And if anyone tells you Mission and Test are more “timeless” then what they replaced, well… probably best not to take their opinions too seriously. Mission in particular is the worst ride WDW has ever built by a wide margin.

If you were mindful that the corporate sponsorships which those attractions depended on all went away.

 

[flynnibus]

Static projections moving around on flat walls doesn’t cut it anymore. Low res projections on small cutouts doesn’t cut it anymore.
KK and CC weren’t great back then… they certainly wouldn’t last today.

GMR was more impressive than WoM and look where GMR was in 2020…

JIYI had tech that would have to be updated- but is the most timeless core concept in FW that could have been updated.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

There is no lack of space at Epcot. Test Track, Mission Space, and Guardians could have been ADDITIONS to Epcot, not replacements.

Could have even added a frozen kids coaster NEXT to Norway where they put the meet and greet.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

People talk about how the early Future World attractions would have needed "serious updating" to work today as if serious updates aren't something Disney does with decent regularity. As if any 30-40+ year old attraction looks exactly as it did on opening day. As if demolishing Horizons and spending more than $100 Million to build Mission Space was somehow less expensive than just modernizing Horizons would have been.

Imagine how EPCOT would have looked if World of Motion had gotten some "serious updates", and then a version of Test Track was built behind it, with its track still looping around the WoM showbuilding to draw attention. Tell me a park that offered a version of both attractions wouldn't have been better.

There are so many examples where replacements at EPCOT could have just been additions. The park could have thrived like never before.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Static projections moving around on flat walls doesn’t cut it anymore. Low res projections on small cutouts doesn’t cut it anymore.
KK and CC weren’t great back then… they certainly wouldn’t last today.

GMR was more impressive than WoM and look where GMR was in 2020…

JIYI had tech that would have to be updated- but is the most timeless core concept in FW that could have been updated.

I couldn’t disagree with any of this more. I don’t know what you think KK was, but it wasn’t “projections,” it was a Country Bears style AA show. And while CC did have SCREENZ, considering the degree to which EPCOT still relies on simple movies - and just spent $450 million on an attraction with a lengthy TV based pre-show - the idea that that is a deal-breaker is madness. KK and CC were LESS projection dependent then many (most?) current EPCOT attractions.

And the artistry in WoM was far more akin to that in Pirates then anything found in GMR, a ride it surpassed. But neither should have been removed, of course.

You seem to be simaltaneously arguing that AA attractions are outdated in the face of a new wave of predominately SCREENZ attractions AND that SCREENZ are outdated.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

I couldn’t disagree with any of this more. I don’t know what you think KK was, but it wasn’t “projections,” it was a Country Bears style AA show. And while CC did have SCREENZ, considering the degree to which EPCOT still relies on simple movies - and just spent $450 million on an attraction with a lengthy TV based pre-show - the idea that that is a deal-breaker is madness. KK and CC were LESS projection dependent then many (most?) current EPCOT attractions.

And the artistry in WoM was far more akin to that in Pirates then anything found in GMR, a ride it surpassed. But neither should have been removed, of course.

You seem to be simaltaneously arguing that AA attractions are outdated in the face of a new wave of predominately SCREENZ attractions AND that SCREENZ are outdated.

There's also this weird idea people seem to have with EPCOT more than anywhere else that there isn't room for differing styles of attraction - even if someone loathed Kitchen Kabaret, it's really no worse an offender than something like The Country Bear Jamboree, and yet people seem plenty understanding of the fact that the Country Bears are allowed to remain. Was there really no room for an updated AA Stage Show in The Land? Could the entrance to Soarin' really not have been built next to that?

For anyone who thinks Future World was too heavy on Slow Moving, Animatronic-Laden Dark Rides - would it have really impacted you negatively if those rides were allowed to remain with updates, and the attractions that ultimately replaced them were built alongside them?

Would having both really take anything away from the people who don't enjoy one or the other? Or would it just do the actual job of the theme park, offering different kinds of attractions to suit different guests' tastes?


The issue with EPCOT Center's attractions was never that they were unpopular and expensive to run - it was just that they were expensive to run. Ridership was high, as was guest satisfaction, and the park hit the peak of its financial success before Test Track even hit the scene. Disney could afford to run all these things AND build new, but they realized they could save some cash by plucking off Animatrionic-dense rides and replacing them with rides that were cheaper to operate. Guests didn't demand the closure of World of Motion, Disney saw its closure as an improvement to the bottom line. This method proved only to work in the short run, however, as the strategic replacement of the early Future World attractions resulted in a park that was more crowded with less to see and do, had longer lines for shorter rides, and ultimately put them on the path they're now spending millions and millions and dollars to rebound from.

 

[flynnibus]

I couldn’t disagree with any of this more. I don’t know what you think KK was, but it wasn’t “projections,” it was a Country Bears style AA show.

So i see you didn’t get the WoM references but instead assumed i had no idea what KK was? Bias much?

And while CC did have SCREENZ, considering the degree to which EPCOT still relies on simple movies - and just spent $450 million on an attraction with a lengthy TV based pre-show - the idea that that is a deal-breaker is madness. KK and CC were LESS projection dependent then many (most?) current EPCOT attractions.

I didn’t say they were. That’s why there were paragraph breaks between the different topics. I didn’t find KK or CC enjoyable in my visits in the 80s. I’d rank them in my list of least favorite attractions and certainly nothing worthy of the showmanship a show in 2020 needs.

And the artistry in WoM was far more akin to that in Pirates then anything found in GMR, a ride it surpassed. But neither should have been removed, of course.

Wom was the least unique of its peers and its big thing was simply scale and classic marc davis characters. It was full of rehashed ideas, repeated concepts, and too similar to peers. Ce la vie.

You seem to be simaltaneously arguing that AA attractions are outdated in the face of a new wave of predominately SCREENZ attractions AND that SCREENZ are outdated.

I have no idea how you got any of that from what was said. I never mentioned anything about AA figures (which is irrelevant to anything said).

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

So i see you didn’t get the WoM references but instead assumed i had no idea what KK was? Bias much?

That seems more like poor explanation on your part - your phrasing very readily appears to lump these ideas together. "This thing doesn't cut it, that thing doesn't cut it - These two attractions weren't great". It looks like you're trying to address the same subject with these sentences:

Static projections moving around on flat walls doesn’t cut it anymore. Low res projections on small cutouts doesn’t cut it anymore.
KK and CC weren’t great back then… they certainly wouldn’t last today.

 

[UNCgolf]

JIYI was never really stale... IMHO.

Yeah, I was going to say this -- the original JII would still work right now, and if you wanted to modernize it it would only need small updates. It's not in the same conversation as something like Universe of Energy, which absolutely could not exist in its original form (which is why Ellen's Energy Adventure existed; Disney just decided not to update it further).

World of Motion would work pretty well without any changes too, although the rest of the pavilion would need updates.

 

[doctornick]

JIYI was never really stale... IMHO.

JIYI if it had survived would absolutely be considered in the same vein of “untouchable Disney classic ride” today. The ride was incredible and timeless.

The charred remains that inhabit that pavilion are just sad. At least with TT, M:S, Cosmic Rewind you can see that they were aiming for high quality rides (even if you disagree with the fit or the quality of the execution)

 

[flynnibus]

That seems more like poor explanation on your part - your phrasing very readily appears to lump these ideas together. "This thing doesn't cut it, that thing doesn't cut it - These two attractions weren't great". It looks like you're trying to address the same subject with these sentences:

Sorry i assumed the people raving about the attractions didn’t need spoon feeding of what i was referring to - since the same audience should know where these effects were used (and not). I gave you some credit… but got none in return

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

Sorry i assumed the people raving about the attractions didn’t need spoon feeding of what i was referring to - since the same audience should know where these effects were used (and not). I gave you some credit… but got none in return

Gave *me* some credit? Looks like your wires are crossed - We weren't even having a discussion until now.

I assumed people in this thread didn't need spoon feeding about who they were actually replying to . . .

 

[Cmdr_Crimson]

Could you imagine if Eisner said nothing and no Disney characters were allowed and was the golden rule for EPCOT..Like they mentioned in this Today Show report..

Would the park be as successful?

 

[Goofyernmost]

I wouldn't equate Epcot's early attractions to a class and if they really lost popularity, why is Spaceship Earth still around (other than it was too expensive for Eisner and now current leadership to touch)? If Hershey's Chocolate World is still popular almost 50 years later, then I see no reason that Horizons wouldn't be either. The myth of outdated Epcot came from Eisner's desire to implement edgier and more IP based attractions into the park and that's what essentially killed it. I don't buy the idea that contemporary audiences wouldn't still enjoy the original Journey Into Imagination or World of Motion as long as they were updated in the same manner as Pirates or HM. The highly atmospheric and ambitious, substantial nature of these attractions was what made them appealing, not the educational value. That came second, as Disney Imagineers have been pretty upfront about creating an inspiring experience first, with the education following.

I answered some of that in the post you quoted. You don't have to buy into contemporary audiences enjoying it because they stayed away in droves. When Epcot was built with the mission to introduce new technology to the masses that job was taken over by the internet and frankly there was nothing that Disney could offer that they couldn't get for free in their homes.

I don't remember Eisner being all that into IP's unless you count the items that Disney themselves were creating which is the kind of thing that Walt built DL on. WoM is gone because GM wanted it changed and they were paying the bills. Imagination changed because Kodak wanted it changed. Horizons had lost the interest of the majority and Disney, not wanting to have another CoP on their hands took the opportunity to change it when HP made them an offer they didn't want to refuse. I believe that SSE is still there because the imagineers have been unable to imagine what could fit in the building. Pirates is in a different park with a different identity and cannot really be used as a comparative item.

 

[Inspired Figment]

JIYI was never really stale... IMHO.

*JII is the original 83-98 Journey Into Imagination w Dreamfinder & Figment, JIYI stands for Journey Into ^YOUR Imagination, which is the lousy 99-01 Honey I Shrunk/Medfield College franchise IP themed mess we’ve been stuck with in some form (in this case, JIIWF, Journey Into Imagination With Figment.. ought to be called Journey Into ^YOUR Imagination With Figment, since it’s just the same crappy redo w Figment carelessly shoehorned in, as an interference I might add rather than a compliment/catalyst, to cynically mock the complaints made to the 1st change) for the past 20 something years. I’m sure you mean the original 83-98 JII, right?

 

[Inspired Figment]

JII if it had survived would absolutely be considered in the same vein of “untouchable Disney classic ride” today. The ride was incredible and timeless.

The charred remains that inhabit that pavilion are just sad. At least with TT, M:S, Cosmic Rewind you can see that they were aiming for high quality rides (even if you disagree with the fit or the quality of the execution)

Fixed that for ya. But I absolutely agree with your sentiment regarding the original Journey Into Imagination.