Gran Fiesta Tour Starring The Three Caballeros. Better?

[Eyorefan]

Back to the standard arguement..

If El Rio del Tiempo was educational, and you loved it so much, what was it about?

Explain, in detail, what the ride was teaching you. Type it all out and then take a quick snack break and come back to read the rest of this post...

*waits for you*

Welcome back! I know what El Rio del Tiempo was about. I have more then thoroughly proven it on these boards - feel free to do a search. If you find my description of the attraction and scene explination and compare it with "your version" - how do they compare?

Was there little to nothing in common between the two? Where there huge gaps of information and large segments of symbolism and history which is in my version and not in yours? Do those sections unarguably make El Rio actually make sense?

Now - why didn't your version match mine? My version, unarguably (based on tons of research), is the correct one. Perhaps El Rio had a message but -no one- was getting it?

We had this debate on this board when El Rio closed. Everyone screamed and said they knew what it was about. I researched and found the actual ride information and scene explination. Everyone was shocked. It's not about what anyone thought it was about. That's why there aren't threads here ranting against it. The community here generally accepts that the original ride was of poor quality in conveying it's theme, though it had some cute kitsch touches. It was not a work of art or granduer. It was a mess.

We know this, history knows it, and the world has moved on.

I found it! http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?p=1932364&highlight=Tiempo#post1932364 Go ME!:sohappy:

I remembered reading this and thinking the El Tiempo would be 100 times better if you were given a cliff notes type pamplet as you walked into the que.

Do I think the New ride is the most wonderful thing ever? No. But it's no worse than what it was before.

 

[CThaddeus]

I didn't think I would care for it, as I mostly liked the original, but I must say I do prefer Gran Fiesta to El Rio Del Tiempo. Yes, I love the old music and miss it, but since the original was such a hodge-podge of Mexico to begin with, the song was really the only thing to latch onto. Those who said you learn nothing about Mexico are right. I can't say I have learned anything about Mexico from either of them, but it does feel as if you see more locations in the current incarnation. The one thing I am most happy about, though, is that the bartering scene is gone. Yes, much of World Showcase has stereotypes in it, but those stereotypes don't seem like they're highlighting a negative thing about that country. Focusing so heavily on the barterers who hound you for three long video screens was extremely cringe-worthy, and I never felt so uncomfortable in a Disney attraction. Mexico has such a wonderful history; there are so many other things they could have featured there instead. They might as well have added a little audio-animatronic boy in there who screams, "Chicle! Chicle!" as you go by. Ugh.
My only complaint of the new attraction would be the almost exclusive reliance on video screens. Others have mentioned it before, but actual animatronics of the characters would have been nice to see here and there.
Do I feel it has dumbed down Mexico? No. Actually, with the removal of the bartering scene, it may have bumped it up in intelligence a bit instead. It has also brought a bit of life into the attraction. The frenetic actions of The Three Caballeros keep the attraction moving, and that's a good thing. Could they go back and add a little more educational value to it? Absolutely. I'd love it if they did. But I'd have to say the energy of the attraction makes me much more interested in the country than the previous occupant.

 

[sbkline]

The one thing I am most happy about, though, is that the bartering scene is gone. Yes, much of World Showcase has stereotypes in it, but those stereotypes don't seem like they're highlighting a negative thing about that country. Focusing so heavily on the barterers who hound you for three long video screens was extremely cringe-worthy, and I never felt so uncomfortable in a Disney attraction.

Has it ever occured to anyone that maybe the only reason so many view it as a negative stereotype is because, in America, we have a negative view of such business practices? Therefore, since we see that kind of bartering in a negative light, we (well, I shouldn't say "we" because I don't give a rip) assume that the scene in El Rio del Tempo was a negative jab at Mexicans.

But instead of looking at it from the POV of Americans who aren't used to that kind of business practice, maybe we should consider the possibility that, in Mexican culture, that is a common, acceptable way of doing business and they think nothing of it. Kind of like in some countries the practice of leaving a gratuity on the table is outright offensive, but we consider it an insult if you DON'T leave a gratuity on the table. Similarly, maybe we think it's annoying to have street vendors pushing their products and therefore, see it as a negative stereotype if such activity is portrayed. However, maybe the Mexican people are perfectly used to such business practices and consider it a good day at the market to haggle with various vendors.

Either way, I'm sick and tired of all this mamby pamby boohooing about friggin stereoytpes. Just because the creators of this ride acknowledged the fact that Mexican culture includes street vendors "hounding" people to purchase their products doesn't mean they are attempting to demean the Mexicans. They are just portraying an aspect of their culture that Americans tend to view negatively in OUR culture.

But like I said, I'm sick and tired of all the whining about stereotypes in general and the marketplace scene in particular. There are three simple little words that I can think of to close out my thoughts on the subject: GET. OVER. IT. Sheesh. Okay, maybe that's four words if you include "sheesh". :lookaroun

 

[CThaddeus]

Has it ever occured to anyone that maybe the only reason so many view it as a negative stereotype is because, in America, we have a negative view of such business practices? Therefore, since we see that kind of bartering in a negative light, we (well, I shouldn't say "we" because I don't give a rip) assume that the scene in El Rio del Tempo was a negative jab at Mexicans.

But instead of looking at it from the POV of Americans who aren't used to that kind of business practice, maybe we should consider the possibility that, in Mexican culture, that is a common, acceptable way of doing business and they think nothing of it. Kind of like in some countries the practice of leaving a gratuity on the table is outright offensive, but we consider it an insult if you DON'T leave a gratuity on the table. Similarly, maybe we think it's annoying to have street vendors pushing their products and therefore, see it as a negative stereotype if such activity is portrayed. However, maybe the Mexican people are perfectly used to such business practices and consider it a good day at the market to haggle with various vendors.

Either way, I'm sick and tired of all this mamby pamby boohooing about friggin stereoytpes. Just because the creators of this ride acknowledged the fact that Mexican culture includes street vendors "hounding" people to purchase their products doesn't mean they are attempting to demean the Mexicans. They are just portraying an aspect of their culture that Americans tend to view negatively in OUR culture.

But like I said, I'm sick and tired of all the whining about stereotypes in general and the marketplace scene in particular. There are three simple little words that I can think of to close out my thoughts on the subject: GET. OVER. IT. Sheesh. Okay, maybe that's four words if you include "sheesh". :lookaroun

We get it, okay? You're not offended. Some of us are. I find it sad they couldn't have chosen better representations of Mexican society. I find it even more sad they devoted that much space to it. One screen, all right. Whatever. Two screens? Really pushing it. Three? Now you're pretty much saying that this is REALLY important stuff and you should remember it...because this is Mexico. That's not Mexico for me, and I'm glad it's gone. So, I'm sorry that some of our opinions offended your delicate sensibilities, and you felt the need to whine about it. But I have three words for you, too: Get. Over. Yourself. Sheesh. Okay, that definitely IS four words if I include "Sheesh."

 

[kcnole]

An improvement over El Rio Del Tiempo? Most definitely. The best thing that could have been there? No. I hated El Rio Del Tiempo. The country of Mexico should have been offended to have that as their representation. Gran Fiesta Tour is much more fun of a ride than what was there previously, unfortunately we don't learn very much about Mexico in the ride. We could have used the three caballeros to teach us about Mexico, instead we just see them in Mexico. I still really like the new ride, but I think it could have been done much better.

 

[sbkline]

An improvement over El Rio Del Tiempo? Most definitely. The best thing that could have been there? No. I hated El Rio Del Tiempo. The country of Mexico should have been offended to have that as their representation.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I very well may be) but doesn't the country have to approve the pavillion that represents it? I mean, I thought that in order to bring a country to WS, Disney had to negotiate with the country in question in order to get the green light to put that country in WS. So I would think it would be logical to assume that the country has to be okay with its representation in WS and if it isn't, it simply refuses to sponser it, or send its exchange students over, or whatever.

I may be totally wrong, but if I'm right, then apparently, that means that Mexico must not have been offended at all if they allowed their pavillion to go up the way it was.

 

[SweetMagic]

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I very well may be) but doesn't the country have to approve the pavillion that represents it? I mean, I thought that in order to bring a country to WS, Disney had to negotiate with the country in question in order to get the green light to put that country in WS. So I would think it would be logical to assume that the country has to be okay with its representation in WS and if it isn't, it simply refuses to sponser it, or send its exchange students over, or whatever.

I may be totally wrong, but if I'm right, then apparently, that means that Mexico must not have been offended at all if they allowed their pavillion to go up the way it was.

Yes, we learned this when listening to Marty Sklar talk on 10/1. They most definitely negotiate with the countries, and in fact had mock ups of several countries ready to go that were never given the green light by the countries themselves.

 

[WV_Jayola]

No, I don't think it's an improvement at all.

I'm still honked off about it, to be honest and you just had to go and post something on it to get me started again. :lol:

I miss the old version. I miss the song the most . I also miss the narrator and the way he says "May-hee-ko" (meaning "Mexico"). To me, it was part of the classic Epcot experience to hear the festive music of El Rio del Tempo. And then they had to go and ruin it with this crap.

I'm not against characters in the World Showcase, per se. I have no problem with them roaming around outside, or doing autographs, such as Mulan in China, or Belle in France, etc. But I think the movies or rides of WS should be focused on the country and its culture and history, not Disney Characters. Just yet another way to dumb down the place to pander to the kiddies, and I think it sucks in a major way.

I've used this analogy before and I'll use it again...what's next on the agenda? Gutting out "reflections of China" and replacing it with a friggin Mulan movie? Heck, with the recent refurb of "Oh Canada", I'm surprised they didn't just put a Brother Bear movie, or Dudly Doo-Right in there. Heck, why not freakin Rocky and Bullwinkle? :brick: I'm being a little facetious there, since I know the latter two aren't Disney, but you catch my drift I'm sure.

Yeah, and heaven forbid that a Walt Disney World park pander to....*shudders*..... kiddies...

cause that would indeed suck.

jeff.

 

[sbkline]

Yes, we learned this when listening to Marty Sklar talk on 10/1. They most definitely negotiate with the countries, and in fact had mock ups of several countries ready to go that were never given the green light by the countries themselves.

Thank you for the info. :wave:

So now back to the statement that "The country of Mexico should have been offended to have that as their representation."

As I said above, they apparently weren't as offended as the poster thought they should have been, or else they surely would have nixed the pavillion before it even opened.

And as I said earlier, perhaps the reason the poster and so many others thought that it was offensive and that Mexico should have been offended is because, here in America we have a negative view of that kind of salesmanship. So, given the negative view we have of that kind of sales approach, we automatically think that Mexico is being insulted by the portrayal of the street vendors.

However, what if those street vendors really are an accurate representation of Mexico's culture and Mexico wasn't the least bit offended by it because there was no reason to be because they don't see such sales practices as a bad thing? Perhaps that is the normal, everyday routine there and the Mexicans who were in charge of reviewing and approving the Mexican pavillion did not feel that it was demeaning to their country in any way.

I mentioned above how some cultures view tipping as insulting. I'm thinking Japan is one of those. Even if it isn't, I'll still say it is for the sake of argument.

So in Japanese culture, it is an offense for someone to leave a tip on the table. So let's say they see some kind of presentation of American culture in which people are shown leaving gratuities on the table as they leave the restaraunt. Some people in Japan might make comments about how that is stereotypical and offensive, given their cultural presupposition that tipping is offensive. But for any American, or anyone familiar with American culture, that won't be seen as an offensive stereotype at all, because it IS an accurate representation of how we do things here. Perhaps the same is true of this controversial marketplace scene in El Rio.

 

[sleepybear]

I loved El Rio for all the wrong reasons. I loved the cheapness of it and the corniness and, of course, the music. It was more like a knock-off of a Disney attraction than an actual Disney attraction. I shall miss its shabby charm. (Not to mention the controversial marketplace scene, which spurred my boyfriend and I to dub it "The River of Trinkets.")

As for the rehab, I enjoy it. It's funny in parts, and zippy. I think they made it a better attraction. But here's the rub: I didn't want them to make it better. So it's a plus for the park, a negative for me.

 

[marine1]

i figured how the mexico ride could be worse. if they decided to do its a small world in it. you know how slow that ride is and listening to that annoying sound for 15 to 20 minutes. id dive off the boat and swim to land lol.