GAC to Become DAS

[JerseyDad]

A protest is being planned for Disneyland
https://www.facebook.com/events/519020831525653/

....and ...where would this 'protest' be? Inside the gates ...after they have paid admission? I can't think of a better way to waste a bunch of bucks ...and then be ejected from the park.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Somewhere near Big Thunder

I would say no to this one since the area is already crowded enough with people trying to get on and off the two mountains and railroad.

 

[duchess1]

....as soon as someone said "kiosk" ...I thought of Epcot. Are there not at least two (maybe 3) ....."wait times" boards in Epcot that have the stand-by time for the major attractions? Couldn't a CM be there to do the "kiosk duties"? (thus keeping kids from getting "too near" to the attraction and having a meltdown)

I think kiosks AND at the rides would be best - especially at Epcot where the attractions are so far apart and Soarin' has it's own set of accessibility issues with the stairs, elevator, and that ramp.

 

[BroganMc]

But I thought the GAC wasn't a front of the line pass...

http://www.change.org/petitions/dis...dium=email&utm_source=signature_receipt#share

Again, no attempt to try the new system...

smh

I don't know how DisneyLand does things (never been) but all GAC ever allowed you to do was enter by FP instead of Standby. Anyone who's ever used it (especially with mobility / boarding issues) knows you never just went on the ride without any sort of waiting. Anyone who's ever used FP knows that isn't true.

Drives me crazy when people who have used it and know what it actually provided use those misleading statements. I also noticed the child in question on that petition page has been able to do quite a lot more things than an adult would with his medical condition. Reminds me of when I was a kid and small enough to carry around the park. Only time I ever got to see what Swiss Family Robinson Treehouse or Peter Pan were like inside. Wish my dad had taken me on Dumbo too so I had that memory to cherish. Or Splash, Big Thunder or Space Mountain (though I do remember waiting inside the queue with my mom while my siblings and dad rode it... they were too worried I couldn't properly support myself alone in the ride vehicle).

 

[BroganMc]

I think kiosks AND at the rides would be best - especially at Epcot where the attractions are so far apart and Soarin' has it's own set of accessibility issues with the stairs, elevator, and that ramp.

Heck yes! Soarin's FP system has been horrible since it opened. You have to wait for a tiny elevator that holds at most 3 wheeled devices (assuming you have some expert drivers and NO ONE is using those behemoth Disney scooters) then exit into an even more crowded area by the Living with the Land boat tour where the line of wheeled devices gets downright clogged. And that's just to see what the current wait times and FP distribution times are! (This was before they had the leader boards listing such things.)

I've asked over and over to put these things up top on the 2nd floor, but they shoot me down every time. I didn't attempt to get a Return Time last week, but I imagine they are making guests do the exact same thing. I pity the folks who cannot do stairs but have some limited walking ability. They'll get a good workout trying to ride Soarin'.

And Lord help us if that little elevator breaks. Then you need a CM to lead you backstage to get around the building and down to an entry Emergency Exit door. (Coincidentally, everyone is being sent out that exit door for the next few weeks while they're putting in new escalators.)

It gets the most horrendous around dinnertime when there's also a crowd for the restaurant upstairs. Restaurant guests are sent to wait right outside the elevator where the wheelies congregate. Last week, I had to warn a couple sitting in the wheelie elevator path to move aside to save them from getting run over. Just in time too. They were in the process of moving when a guy in a huge scooter backed up right to where they were sitting. He couldn't see them and they had their back turned toward him. I took one look at those splayed out fingers (they were leaning on their hands while sitting) and envisioned a few broken bones in their future.

Soarin'/The Land management needs to spend a few days navigating their building in a wheelchair. Methinks they need a dose of reality.

 

[duchess1]

Heck yes! Soarin's FP system has been horrible since it opened. You have to wait for a tiny elevator that holds at most 3 wheeled devices (assuming you have some expert drivers and NO ONE is using those behemoth Disney scooters) then exit into an even more crowded area by the Living with the Land boat tour where the line of wheeled devices gets downright clogged. And that's just to see what the current wait times and FP distribution times are! (This was before they had the leader boards listing such things.)

I've asked over and over to put these things up top on the 2nd floor, but they shoot me down every time. I didn't attempt to get a Return Time last week, but I imagine they are making guests do the exact same thing. I pity the folks who cannot do stairs but have some limited walking ability. They'll get a good workout trying to ride Soarin'.

And Lord help us if that little elevator breaks. Then you need a CM to lead you backstage to get around the building and down to an entry Emergency Exit door. (Coincidentally, everyone is being sent out that exit door for the next few weeks while they're putting in new escalators.)

It gets the most horrendous around dinnertime when there's also a crowd for the restaurant upstairs. Restaurant guests are sent to wait right outside the elevator where the wheelies congregate. Last week, I had to warn a couple sitting in the wheelie elevator path to move aside to save them from getting run over. Just in time too. They were in the process of moving when a guy in a huge scooter backed up right to where they were sitting. He couldn't see them and they had their back turned toward him. I took one look at those splayed out fingers (they were leaning on their hands while sitting) and envisioned a few broken bones in their future.

Soarin'/The Land management needs to spend a few days navigating their building in a wheelchair. Methinks they need a dose of reality.

It didn't seem like the most efficient way to do things especially for fast passes for even for those of us without mobility issues. Other places have a FP distribution machine not near the entrance to the ride and it would sure ease some of the congestion for a place not designed to have such a huge crowd.

 

[duchess1]

What I dislike most about the petition is the dishonesty. No mention in the petition that Disney put an alternative program in to replace GAC, or mention that Disney NEVER intended for the GAC to be a FOTL pass, and the article she was quoted in that brought in all these signatures was inaccurate (you don not pay for a DAS). For goodness sakes, try the new system out and come up with ways to tweak it to work for your particular situation.

 

[BaconPancakes]

I agree, these people haven't even attempted the new system. Like a toddler declaring that they hate green beans without even tasting them first. Here we have Autism Harpy blowing in on day one with her cameras ready, yet she failed to show how the system "doesn't work for her". All we saw was her berating a poor CM without even giving the system a shot. I will honestly be embarrassed for Disney if they start giving in to loons like her.

 

[BroganMc]

What I dislike most about the petition is the dishonesty. No mention in the petition that Disney put an alternative program in to replace GAC, or mention that Disney NEVER intended for the GAC to be a FOTL pass, and the article she was quoted in that brought in all these signatures was inaccurate (you don not pay for a DAS). For goodness sakes, try the new system out and come up with ways to tweak it to work for your particular situation.

All true.

It's a shame that there is so much of this on the internet now. Makes good fodder for the forums but it really doesn't help the people who need DAS.

Unfortunately I am leery of talking about all the things I learned about GAC/DAS use because I know how easily the fakers can abuse it.

FWIW I used DAS my last two days of my Disney vacation so I could try the new system for myself and see if it needed tweaks. Then I reported my findings to manager CMs and Guest Relations with suggestions for improvement. I think that is the most helpful attitude to go into the next few months with while they adapt to the new program. Be patient, be flexible and be responsive.

There have been a lot of kinks in the new system. Everything from inconsistent GR CMs to things that just don't work right at the rides. I was reading a story today about a visually impaired guest who went through 4 CMs at Beauty and the Beast to explain why she needed to sit in the front rows to see the show. In the old GAC system she would have had a pass that explained all that and saved a great deal of effort.

Meanwhile another guest who used GAC to accommodate her frequent bathroom issues was told to just leave the line then "push thru" to get back to her place. She even had a CM lead her on the charge through a multitude of angry guests.

These are the sorts of guests who are getting squeezed out and put through some negative experiences during the trial. All because some people had very questionable ethics. It's a crying shame.

FWIW I frequently get squeezed out of using my handicapped parking plate in my state because the HA parking is so thoroughly abused. I have one of those ramp vans that needs the 8 feet of clearance on the passenger side to enter/exit. I gave up trying to use HA parking in most places and create my own on the outskirts of the lot with the use f some orange parking cones I bought at Home Depot. My powerchair can make up the distance without hurting me and I can be assured I won't be blocked out of my van. Makes me wish people who abused it would experience what it is like to really truly need such spots. (Personally I'm all for putting the van accessible spots away from the door and saving regular HA parking for the ambulatory but mobility-impaired. A powerchair or scooter can easily handle the extra 100ft while a limited pedestrian can't. What we can't handle is someone parking too close to us.)

 

[BroganMc]

I agree, these people haven't even attempted the new system. Like a toddler declaring that they hate green beans without even tasting them first. Here we have Autism Harpy blowing in on day one with her cameras ready, yet she failed to show how the system "doesn't work for her". All we saw was her berating a poor CM without even giving the system a shot. I will honestly be embarrassed for Disney if they start giving in to loons like her.

I only saw one video from Autism Hippie. The one she filmed at Great Movie Ride. Irritated me because she said there was no holding area for GAC/special needs guests. There is absolutely one for those with wheels. It's down at the front where you load in Row 12. Plenty of seating on the ride for wheelchairs (about 3 spots per train) and their guests. They even usher you inside before the crowd to get ready in Row 12 for a transfer, if needed.

Of course she probably doesn't know that because her son, while autistic, is perfectly ambulatory. He's probably much better off being put down at the front with the wheelies so he gets away from the crowd. Of course then you're also putting a potentially volatile person next to a bunch of people with physically frail bodies. I'm not sure that is a good idea. I know if her son become physically hostile toward me he'd do me a great deal of harm before anyone could stop him. (I have a friend who's daughter is a physically-strong but mentally-challenged 12 yo. She's whacked me hard before her mom could stop her and I was too naive about the harm she'd do me. I give her daughter a wide berth now though I do engage her in conversation.)

 

[NowInc]

....and ...where would this 'protest' be? Inside the gates ...after they have paid admission? I can't think of a better way to waste a bunch of bucks ...and then be ejected from the park.

Disneyland is a far different animal than WDW. The 2 parks are literally across from each other. The "middle" path basically turns into downtown disney. So they can gather right in the middle for free.

 

[RandomPrincess]

Disneyland is a far different animal than WDW. The 2 parks are literally across from each other. The "middle" path basically turns into downtown disney. So they can gather right in the middle for free.

That would be on Disney property though. Security would just remove them. Their last protest had 3 people according to posts on the FB page.

 

[NowInc]

That would be on Disney property though. Security would just remove them. Their last protest had 3 people according to posts on the FB page.

Yeah apparently they tried meeting up at the 7-11 on the corner (not a joke)...which if you've been there...you know thats pretty much the only place in the area thats not a convention center, hotel. or disney.

 

[unkadug]

Yeah apparently they tried meeting up at the 7-11 on the corner (not a joke)...which if you've been there...you know thats pretty much the only place in the area thats not a convention center, hotel. or disney.

So, if more than three people had of showed up then 7-11 would have had there cars towed!

 

[JerseyDad]

No, I doubt ADA will ever care as long as the accommodations exceed regulations. They are not going to fight a battle with no violations. More is always better then just what is necessary. They can only violate ADA in a negative sense. There is no guideline for exceeding those lines. Think of it as an "at least equal mandate" nothing less.

...me thinks that exceeding what is required to the point that it is "better" than what those that "don't need it" ...is in fact a violation ...so, technically, ADA can be violated "in the reverse" ...

Americans with Disabilities Act Title III Regulations

Part 36 Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Disability in Public Accommodations and Commercial Facilities
(as amended by the final rule published on September 15, 2010)

Subpart B – General Requirements

§ 36.202 Activities.

• (a) Denial of participation. A public accommodation shall not subject an individual or class of individuals on the basis of a disability or disabilities of such individual or class, directly, or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements, to a denial of the opportunity of the individual or class to participate in or benefit from the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of a place of public accommodation. (pretty straight-forward, or at least I think so, you cannot deny a disabled person access to a public accommodation, I think it's been made clear that Disney has / is / will provide, or continue to provide access to their attractions in accordance with ADA Law....at a minimum)
• (b) Participation in unequal benefit. A public accommodation shall not afford an individual or class of individuals, on the basis of a disability or disabilities of such individual or class, directly, or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements, with the opportunity to participate in or benefit from a good, service, facility, privilege, advantage, or accommodation that is not equal to that afforded to other individuals. (also straight-forward, again as I see it ...if you provide the disabled camp with a substantially better means or 'experience' of access, etc (ie: ongoing issuance of FOTL access) ....you are violating the rights of the non-disabled)

....I think a fairly key word in the above is "equal" ....only 5 letters but pretty powerful in the eyes of the law. That said ....Disney has endeavored to provide a "better experience" for those that claim that they cannot ...EVER ...stand on line. With an attempt to make the line "experience" only last 10 minutes or so (as part of a DAS 'get a return time" system) ...they have accommodated the disabled. Yet ...even that is not enough for those that are rallying against the change. The ADA Law does allow for positive 'modifications' of the law to help those that need help ...but there is clearly an inferred limitation of what or how far you can, or need to go.

....there are those that will debate the above sections of the law and it's 'true' meaning. I think anything can be subject to debate. What cannot be debated is the fact that Disney has attempted to correct a situation that has for quite some time ...been spiraling out of control.

 

[JerseyDad]

I only saw one video from Autism Hippie. The one she filmed at Great Movie Ride. Irritated me because she said there was no holding area for GAC/special needs guests. There is absolutely one for those with wheels. It's down at the front where you load in Row 12. Plenty of seating on the ride for wheelchairs (about 3 spots per train) and their guests. They even usher you inside before the crowd to get ready in Row 12 for a transfer, if needed.

Of course she probably doesn't know that because her son, while autistic, is perfectly ambulatory. He's probably much better off being put down at the front with the wheelies so he gets away from the crowd. Of course then you're also putting a potentially volatile person next to a bunch of people with physically frail bodies. I'm not sure that is a good idea. I know if her son become physically hostile toward me he'd do me a great deal of harm before anyone could stop him. (I have a friend who's daughter is a physically-strong but mentally-challenged 12 yo. She's whacked me hard before her mom could stop her and I was too naive about the harm she'd do me. I give her daughter a wide berth now though I do engage her in conversation.)

...this flipped on a light-bulb over my dome. I saw a section of the ADA Law that pertains to situations such as this ....it is as follows:

§ 36.208 Direct threat.

• (a) This part does not require a public accommodation to permit an individual to participate in or benefit from the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages and accommodations of that public accommodation when that individual poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. (I think it was stated in a portion of one of the videos that he can possibly do physical harm if agitated or not getting his way)
• (b) In determining whether an individual poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others, a public accommodation must make an individualized assessment, based on reasonable judgment that relies on current medical knowledge or on the best available objective evidence, to ascertain: The nature, duration, and severity of the risk; the probability that the potential injury will actually occur; and whether reasonable modifications of policies, practices, or procedures or the provision of auxiliary aids or services will mitigate the risk.

....just something to ponder ....particularly if you are going to publicly state that person(s) may get harmed by a person of substantial physical stature should they become volatile or agitated.

 

[EOD K9]

Getting into a tussle with autistic people who don't know their own strength is not fun. They can do a lot of damage. People unfortunately do not want to do harm to the aggressor though as they know its not their fault. I've been in situations like that before and it is not something I want to repeat. But when the fight is on, fight is on.

 

[BroganMc]

...this flipped on a light-bulb over my dome. I saw a section of the ADA Law that pertains to situations such as this ....it is as follows:



....just something to ponder ....particularly if you are going to publicly state that person(s) may get harmed by a person of substantial physical stature should they become volatile or agitated.

Yes I thought about that too. I think Autism Hippie was just so riled about about her cause she didn't think everything through.

It's easy to think the only problems in the world are yours. I read another of the protests/stories from a mom who took her autistic son to Haunted Mansion and thought the folks waiting at the exit in scooters & wheelchairs were being let on the ride before them (she even used the term "front of the line"). Her son complained about it to her saying it wasn't fair "they" got the accommodation "he" was used to. She was corrected by wheelies who pointed out they actually did go through the same queue and then were directed to wait in another line at the exit (after the Stretching Room) until they could stop the ride for their boarding. So actually her son got to ride HM before the wheelies he saw. Even if he was in the same Stretching Room as them, he was on and off the ride before they were.

Anyone else read some of the stories coming from that board that must not be named? Concerns me there are people who were covered under the old GAC system that are being ignored under DAS. Stories I refer to are the visually-impaired person who was instructed to talk to 4 different CMs at Beauty and the Beast show for a seat up front and was lost in the shuffle. And the other lady with kidney problems who was told to leave the line for the bathroom then just push her way back through to her place to the ire of other unknowing guests. And EPCOT Guest Relations still hasn't gotten their message straight as to who can qualify for a DAS and who cannot.

 

[jrlbc06]

(Theoretically you could write your own Return Time if you know the initials of CMs on duty. There are no special stamps. I'm actually wondering how they will track that to keep people honest. CMs change duty all the time. So once the managers go away post-trial period and were back to CMs changing positions every 30 minutes, what will keep someone from writing their own Return Times and fudging it? Assuming you are good at using different handwriting styles.)

It has been stated a few times that there is a check code that will be added to the end of the documented return time on the DAS to ensure that this doesn't happen.

 

[duchess1]

Yes I thought about that too. I think Autism Hippie was just so riled about about her cause she didn't think everything through.

It's easy to think the only problems in the world are yours. I read another of the protests/stories from a mom who took her autistic son to Haunted Mansion and thought the folks waiting at the exit in scooters & wheelchairs were being let on the ride before them (she even used the term "front of the line"). Her son complained about it to her saying it wasn't fair "they" got the accommodation "he" was used to. She was corrected by wheelies who pointed out they actually did go through the same queue and then were directed to wait in another line at the exit (after the Stretching Room) until they could stop the ride for their boarding. So actually her son got to ride HM before the wheelies he saw. Even if he was in the same Stretching Room as them, he was on and off the ride before they were.

Anyone else read some of the stories coming from that board that must not be named? Concerns me there are people who were covered under the old GAC system that are being ignored under DAS. Stories I refer to are the visually-impaired person who was instructed to talk to 4 different CMs at Beauty and the Beast show for a seat up front and was lost in the shuffle. And the other lady with kidney problems who was told to leave the line for the bathroom then just push her way back through to her place to the ire of other unknowing guests. And EPCOT Guest Relations still hasn't gotten their message straight as to who can qualify for a DAS and who cannot.

I think those are growing pains that come with a huge policy overhaul such as this where part of the reason for the overhaul is to weed out fakers. As time goes on, management and front line CMs will handle these situations better. They have had a lot thrown at them over the last couple weeks and I'm sure it has not been fun. Also, we don't know the tone and actual conversation, but if the person with the BATB or the bathroom issue acted like Autism Hippie, then I can see why some of these situations may have occurred.