GAC to Become DAS

[Pinkerton]

Your family probably should opt for Disneyland instead...it's much cooler and less traumatic for your disabled child.

There are many families that NEVER go to WDW and they all grow up to be perfectly normal.

Too late. We just got back from going 09/15 thru 09/21 and our disabled daughter went 5 days in a row but, I do admit, she was exhausted and so I stayed with her at the resort on day 6 and my wife stayed with her on day 7. Not bad for her first WDW experience and she and her three siblings had a great time.

 

[EvanAnderson]

Here's the sitch:

The card will have a picture and the name of the person whom the card is being used by. The person MUST be present and willing to ride to use the card for their friends and family.

The card also has guidelines and procedures requiring a signature from the person using it stating they agree to the cards usage. It says how the card will NOT provide immediate access, attractions may close, a minimum wat will be experienced etc.

If the wait is more than 10 minutes, the family will get a return time based on the current wait time, minus 10 minutes.

Example. Arrive at Test Track at 1pm. Wait time is 50 minutes. Guests come back at 1:40.

Only one reservation will be able to made at a time. If they change their mind and want another reservation time, the first one will be cancelled and a new return time will be issued at another attraction.

Guests going to attractions that are NOT wheelchair accessible will receive a return time as well, instead of going right through the exit or FP

 

[BroganMc]

The aim is not 'fair and equal' but rather reasonable accommodation to ensure the disabled can participate equally - not 'wait' equally. Sometimes the wait for the ladies room is longer than the men's room too...

The purpose of altering a system to be "fair and equal" to all guests was what I was referring to. Why change asystem that our disabLed guests into a wheelchair queue after a longer wait that equals non disabled guests if you are not trying to be fair to all? The riders is not more or less accessible. It's just a longer wait. As some argued in this thread the complaint is GAC users had an unfair advantage because they got to go ahead of Standby or FP and had a "more magical vacation" than others. I applied that philosophy to a real world situation that happens every day for wheelchair guests to demonstrate how the setup incurs longer waits and more inconvenience. They're not getting a more magical experience. When you consider the added time to achieve the same goal and limited number of attractions that person can do compared to someone who can transfer, the entire day in Magic Kingdom becomes decidedly substandard and unmagical.

The number of accessible attractions at Disney is far less then the inaccessible ones. Yet disabled must pay the same ticket prices. In other parks there is a discount because it's recognized there is a disparity in access.

Disney chose to compensate with easier access to attractions. It's been this way since at least 1998.

GAC allowed guests with non mobility and hidden disabilities to be included as well in consideration of special needs. The program was still applied to those with mobility disabilitIes. At least this was how it's been applied in WDW the last 6 years.

BTW I'm well versed in wait Times for ladies rest rooms. I happen to be female. I also notice disportionately higher number of moms occupying the one wheelchair accessible stall with her kids. Don't think that doesn't impact my day as well.

 

[shakes20]

Can we please shift the blame to those who have hijacked the system?

 

[flynnibus]

The purpose of altering a system to be "fair and equal" to all guests was what I was referring to. Why change asystem that our disabLed guests into a wheelchair queue after a longer wait that equals non disabled guests if you are not trying to be fair to all? The riders is not more or less accessible

Its more fair and balanced because it puts everyone on equal terms. You get in a line and wait based on who is in front of you. Some lines are longer than others... but by helping ensure only those who NEED to be in that line are in it.. it in theory helps shorten that line.

Reality is (IMO) is you might find people flocking to wheelchairs again and just act like they can transfer when its favorable to do so.

 

[BroganMc]

Its more fair and balanced because it puts everyone on equal terms. You get in a line and wait based on who is in front of you. Some lines are longer than others... but by helping ensure only those who NEED to be in that line are in it.. it in theory helps shorten that line.

Reality is (IMO) is you might find people flocking to wheelchairs again and just act like they can transfer when its favorable to do so.

Great which makes my life just so much easier again. Oh if only I could have one of those miraculous recoveries at the boarding gate.

I'm actually glad I've been coming so often to WDW the last several years. It's allowed me to get to the point where I feel like I'm starting to get a little bored. That's why my park days consist of sightseeing around festivals and special events more than the attractions. Being a DVC member has given me that perspective where you look at commando tourists and wonder how could you ever be like that (knowing you did it many years before DVC). Reality is I don't have to go on every attraction to feel like I've had a good day. 2 -3 in a day is a good one for me. So far this trip I've been on 4 rides (Magic Kingdom railroad, Soarin', TSM and Star Tours) and I've been in town for 10 days. 2 other rides were Antarctica at SeaWorld on different days.

Since I'm gonna be here during the changeover next week I do feel like it's my opportunity to report on what's actually deployed and how it affects guests like me. I'll use some of that knowledge for my NYE trip (though most of my park rides will happen in evening EMH when it's not crowded), but the rest I pass on to others through blogs and forum posting.

I had already decided to skip my Spring trip next year to take a break and save points for a family gathering in NYE 2014/2015. The new policy will affect my ability to do attractions with my family since they'll have their own FPs to worry about. Makes it a bit more complicated for us, but hey it blocks the cheaters out right?

The folks my heart breaks for are the first timers and once-every-few-years-travelers who will have a less than magical experience. I fear they'll come away feeling like Disney is just like Universal - expensive, hyped and not really interested in their special needs guests. I so wish Disney had chosen another route to curb abuse. Requiring IDs, enforcing 6 person limits, even limiting usage to so many per hour or day. Just one barrier that a typical disabled family incurs due to the nature of having to deal with an actual disability would have been enough to make the abusers think twice. Instead they chose to appear hard line on abusers for the sake of Standby guests who complained far more than were affected and ended up only truly hurting the people who needed the extra help the most. It's a throwing the baby out with the bath water approach.

I predict we haven't heard the last of the bad press for Disney on this issue. There will be more editorials saying Disney has lost it's magic for disabled guests and become a "me to" experience. Then again, as a DVC member I see WDW doing a lot of things that are souring the magic and making it appear just another corporate money maker. I've had CM friends who left or are on the verge of leaving because Traditions is more a class than a way of mind for management. As a DVC member that is very sad to see.

 

[BroganMc]

Can we please shift the blame to those who have hijacked the system?

If only they were the ones affected. Darn.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Can we please shift the blame to those who have hijacked the system?

The blame also rests on everyone who feels they are entitled to ride and experience more than everyone else.

 

[Gabe1]

BTW I'm well versed in wait Times for ladies rest rooms. I happen to be female. I also notice disportionately higher number of moms occupying the one wheelchair accessible stall with her kids. Don't think that doesn't impact my day as well.

Wow. And this is where I have an issue with 'it is all about me' and to heck with everyone else including mothers and small children. Not too many people Diss Mothers for tending to their children's basic needs or supervising them. Actually they get annoyed when Mothers don't stay with their children.

A single stall is not accessible to a mother with kids. A larger stall is accessible to a mother with kids. What is the Mother to do, leave her children outside unattended while she uses a small stall.
Should a Mother leave one kid outside the stall while assisting her other child? What if the Mom needs to use the restroom and the child can't stand yet? Should the Mother seat or lay the little one on the restroom floor? I am astounded by how self absorbed some guests have become. Me, me, me and to heck with everyone else.

Once again, restrooms have accessible restroom stalls not reserved. Same goes for the companion restrooms.
Elevators are the same thing. Yes they afford accessibility but they are not reserved. I often see Mothers use elevators too, it is difficult to take children and a stroller down a staircase or an escalator. Yes, a guest with mobility issues may have to wait for another elevator and that too will impact their day but by no means does that mean the Mother with her kids should not have access to an elevator. Gee-sh.

 

[natatomic]

@BroganMc, This is just a hypothetical situation, but tell me if this is feasible (I have no personal experience, so I am genuinely trying to understand here):
Let's say you get the return time card for Attraction A which has an hour wait. You then decide to ride Attraction B while you wait for your return time for Attraction A. Attraction B also has an hour wait, and the line is wheelchair accessible through the Stand-by line, so you wait the hour. But because you need a specific wheelchair car, you wait an additional 30 minutes. Total wait time for you at Attraction B: 90 minutes. You then return to Attraction A (through the FP line, which is typically 5-10 minutes), which you are able to transfer into the seat yourself due to the configuration of the car. It takes you one-two minutes longer than the average guest to board, but nothing worth noting. Total wait time for Attraction A: 10 minutes. (Obviously, these are just made up rides and wait times, but I think they are plausible scenarios).
Now, one could argue that the total wait time for Attraction A was actually much longer than 10 minutes that based on when you got your return time to when you actually boarded, but you still got to experience both attractions in 100 minutes total. Guests without the DAS have to physically wait in both one-hour lines, so they would end up waiting 120 minutes to experience both attractions. Also, you can still utilize the regular FP system, so you could have cut your wait time for Attraction B significantly as well. Either way, you still end up waiting less than non-DAS users. Again, I have no personal experience with this, so do correct me if I am wrong, but it seems possible to strategically plan your DAS and FP usage in an efficient manner based around which attractions have specific wheelchair cars and which have easier vehicles to transfer into so that way you are not waiting more than the average guest, especially since the DAS essentially allows you to always be waiting in two lines (one physically, one virtually) at all times, compared to non-DAS users who can only wait in two lines up to three times a day through their three FPs (less if they choose parade or fireworks viewing for one of their FP). And you might even be able to virtually wait in more lines than that, since I have heard that rides without wheelchair queues (Space Mountain, for example) will write out return time cards for wheelchair guests separate from the DAS system. You could hold a DAS return time for Buzz Lightyear, a wheelchair return time for Space Mountain, and a FP+ for Haunted Mansion all at the same time. And since the first two don't have expirations, you have a lot of flexibility in getting from one land to another.

 

[BroganMc]

@BroganMc, This is just a hypothetical situation, but tell me if this is feasible (I have no personal experience, so I am genuinely trying to understand here):
Let's say you get the return time card for Attraction A which has an hour wait. You then decide to ride Attraction B while you wait for your return time for Attraction A. Attraction B also has an hour wait, and the line is wheelchair accessible through the Stand-by line, so you wait the hour. But because you need a specific wheelchair car, you wait an additional 30 minutes. Total wait time for you at Attraction B: 90 minutes. You then return to Attraction A (through the FP line, which is typically 5-10 minutes), which you are able to transfer into the seat yourself due to the configuration of the car. It takes you one-two minutes longer than the average guest to board, but nothing worth noting. Total wait time for Attraction A: 10 minutes. (Obviously, these are just made up rides and wait times, but I think they are plausible scenarios).
Now, one could argue that the total wait time for Attraction A was actually much longer than 10 minutes that based on when you got your return time to when you actually boarded, but you still got to experience both attractions in 100 minutes total. Guests without the DAS have to physically wait in both one-hour lines, so they would end up waiting 120 minutes to experience both attractions. Also, you can still utilize the regular FP system, so you could have cut your wait time for Attraction B significantly as well. Either way, you still end up waiting less than non-DAS users. Again, I have no personal experience with this, so do correct me if I am wrong, but it seems possible to strategically plan your DAS and FP usage in an efficient manner based around which attractions have specific wheelchair cars and which have easier vehicles to transfer into so that way you are not waiting more than the average guest, especially since the DAS essentially allows you to always be waiting in two lines (one physically, one virtually) at all times, compared to non-DAS users who can only wait in two lines up to three times a day through their three FPs (less if they choose parade or fireworks viewing for one of their FP). And you might even be able to virtually wait in more lines than that, since I have heard that rides without wheelchair queues (Space Mountain, for example) will write out return time cards for wheelchair guests separate from the DAS system. You could hold a DAS return time for Buzz Lightyear, a wheelchair return time for Space Mountain, and a FP+ for Haunted Mansion all at the same time. And since the first two don't have expirations, you have a lot of flexibility in getting from one land to another.

The problem I have with your scenario is twofold:

1) I am not certain I would even qualify for a DAS card to get a Return Time ticket. Theoretically I shouldn't be since my issues are more related to mobility which is supposedly covered by accessible queue lines. This is something I've been thinking about over the last week while I'm vacationing in WDW (I'm at Boardwalk now, move to Saratoga on Friday). Will getting a Return Time ticket work for me? Absolutely. I can easily go find something else to do that doesn't involve an attraction or wait time (except maybe for the HA stall in the Ladies Room... bathroom breaks really do take me 30 minutes but at least half that time is what I need to tend to my needs).

2) I have only ever used the GAC for 6 attractions in WDW: Buzz, Pooh, the new Little Mermaid (just to try it on a busy Saturday), TSM, Soarin' and Test Track. Test Track I use it so my ride time coincides with when I'm up for the hard transfer, my family is available to help transfer me and the ride isn't down for some weather issue. Usually this is a ride I do once per trip, sometimes only once every three trips in a year. TSM is something I do every trip so the GAC allows me to not have to kill myself to get up early and try and grab a FP or deal with the hassles of handling a power wheelchair in a crowded pedestrian queue line. I bypass that to deal with just the hassle of the wheelchair queue. Soarin' I use to avoid that same crowded pedestrian queue. Again it's something I end up doing maybe a couple times over a 2 week vacation. It's a fairly easy transfer for me with the main hassle being the queue and having to wait for the ride to empty to get my wheelchair back to me to for an exit.

Buzz and Pooh have single wheelchair accessible vehicles no one else can use but me and another wheelchair user. The GAC allowed me not to be overly inconvenienced waiting for that vehicle. If Buzz has an under 15-20 minute wait I just go in Standby and never bother digging out my GAC. At least I have a hallway I can wait out of the way of pedestrian guests. Pooh is more awkward because I'm waiting in that tiny area between the exit and the shop. Easy for accidents to happen there as pedestrians trip over me. So my goal there is to be in and out as quickly as possible.

I cannot do Splash, Big Thunder or Space. The ride vehicles are too inaccessible for my nonbending legs. (Joint contractures, remember?) I cannot do Peter Pan or Dumbo either. (I did Peter Pan once when I was 7 and my mom could carry me on. Now it is far too dangerous to attempt a transfer since they cannot stop the ride to load me.) Dumbo is one of those "ride vehicle is too inaccessible to fit me". I did do the Aladdin ride once (in a borrowed manual wheelchair since it could not accommodate my powerchair). I figure I know what Dumbo is like from that experience. Quick and not that memorable. I did like going into the new Dumbo waiting area to see the kids having fun. Didn't get a FP or any such thing. Just told the CM I was going in to see what it was like an exited without riding 20 minutes later. I turned in my beeper before it could go off.

So assuming I am allowed a DAS card, I'll probably just do my other things during the interim to wait for these rides. Again not a hardship for me. I enjoy riding around the park in my powerchair. That's a ride in itself sometimes. (A thrill if I add some Food & Wine beverages.... Just kidding.)

The issue for me really is that concern I won't be allowed to participate in the DAS program even though I'd use it so sparingly. I won't really know if that's an issue for me until next Wednesday when I go to GR at a park (probably DHS so I can try TSM).

Your solution sounds fine for a guest who can do a lot more ride attractions than me. I think if you happened to encounter me in a park you'd understand clearly what my needs were and my concerns. I'm probably making too much out of this. It's just I have had those bad experiences of CMs focusing so much on my GAC they really stopped looking at me and making a judgment.

I mean I had a CM turn me away from the FP collection site at Soarin' (this is after the greeter stage when you are first admitted and the proceed down a long hallway) because the CM at Guest Relations forgot to fill out the field for "number of guests in party". It wasn't some doctored number like that 14 you saw. It was just blank. And the only one with me at the time was my 80 yr old father who'd walked all that way with me. I thought that was silly since clearly the pass is typed to say "no more than parties of 6" and we were only a party of 2. But the CM refused to let us on until I'd gone back upstairs and out to GR in EPCOT to get a new pass. My dad was too tired to walk the hallway back to his ECV so he just stood there and waited for me. I figured my powerchair could go faster and get that errand done in 10 mins if I was quick about it. By the time I got back the CM had gone off duty. No manager was called. (We don't do that sort of thing.) Dad just stood there and quietly waited for me. The CM never even looked at him. Needless to say the next time we had any sort of issue with the interpretation of the GAC I did get a bit more vocal. (That time it was the date written 9/25/11 + 14 days. The objection was the "+14 days". Same ink and handwriting. The Soarin' CMs just didn't like that it wasn't written as 9/25/11 - 10/9/11. I got a warning to fix it then but I kinda think that was because I spoke up for myself and told them I had just gotten the pass at MK the day before. It was 9/26/11 at the time. Again just the two of us riding.)

When you encounter a CM who challenges you like that you have two options: (1) be that guest you hate who acts all entitled and makes a fuss or (2) meekly try to fix whatever issue they have and assure them you're trying to be as honest as possible about your needs. Gets a little comical to me when I so obviously look like I need a lot of help. Why question the need you see in your guest because of a typo? (That's the reason I said some CMs have ignored common sense in favor of focusing on that "silly little card".) Maybe as part of the DAS system CMs are undergoing a bit better training in detecting needs. I know it's a hard thing to teach some of the younger inexperienced ones.

Edited to add: I forgot I also use GAC for Kilamanjaro Safari if the wait is over 30 mins. That puts me in the wheelchair bus loading zone where I can wait with all the other wheelies. I learned the hard way that this queue is not accurately determined by the posted Standby times outside. The CM greeter and I both thought a 10 min Standby would get me in and out within 30-40 minutes tops. 90 minutes later I was done. It just got backed up that day. Too many non-transfer folks in front of me and only one bus working.

 

[BroganMc]

Wow. And this is where I have an issue with 'it is all about me' and to heck with everyone else including mothers and small children. Not too many people Diss Mothers for tending to their children's basic needs or supervising them. Actually they get annoyed when Mothers don't stay with their children.

A single stall is not accessible to a mother with kids. A larger stall is accessible to a mother with kids. What is the Mother to do, leave her children outside unattended while she uses a small stall.
Should a Mother leave one kid outside the stall while assisting her other child? What if the Mom needs to use the restroom and the child can't stand yet? Should the Mother seat or lay the little one on the restroom floor? I am astounded by how self absorbed some guests have become. Me, me, me and to heck with everyone else.

Once again, restrooms have accessible restroom stalls not reserved. Same goes for the companion restrooms.
Elevators are the same thing. Yes they afford accessibility but they are not reserved. I often see Mothers use elevators too, it is difficult to take children and a stroller down a staircase or an escalator. Yes, a guest with mobility issues may have to wait for another elevator and that too will impact their day but by no means does that mean the Mother with her kids should not have access to an elevator. Gee-sh.

Hey, who's got the entitlement attitude here? Does a mother need to take her 5, 7 and 3 yr old into the one stall a wheelchair person can use so all can go to the bathroom? Yup, that's happened to me. I've also taken kids (my nieces) to the restroom myself many times over the years. We developed a system of keeping feet by the door and talking to each other. There are infants that need changing, I understand that. I encounter those families in the companion/family restrooms (sometimes the only option nearby for a wheelchair user). We try to share those spaces as fairly and effectively as possible. Prioritizing needs is a good thing to try. Just the other day I went into the companion restroom at EPCOT FutureWorld. A dad showed up behind me with his child in a stroller. I really really needed to go while he said he could wait, so I went in first and hurried as quickly as possible for him. Other times I've ushered the parent past me because my need could wait a couple minutes and there's couldn't. Or I went in search of another bathroom.

There are often other slightly larger stalls nearby the one large HA stall. It's big enough for two people to enter but not for a wheelchair user. At the very least, it is inconsiderate to take extra time to let your little darling princess change her clothes, play in the sink and recite all her favorite Disney songs while the mom brushes her hair, all while a wheelchair user is patiently waiting outside the door. I once had to wait for a mom to convince her son that he really did need to go when the little prince sat there for 10 minutes wailing he didn't. The CM intervened for me knocking on the stall door to let her know a wheelchair guest was waiting.

I understand when I have to wait an extra minute or two for the HA stall to open. People have no idea a wheelchair user is going to arrive after they go in. But it's when I have to wait 5-10 minutes for that able-bodied person to vacate while other able-bodied people are entering and exiting stalls I cannot use all around me that it gets to be an issue.

When I'm in one of those stalls I always keep an eye on the floor outside it. If I see a wheelchair come up, I expedite my actions and call out to them I am clearing out as quickly as possible. Most moms with kids don't show the same courtesy. They don't even realize there is a wheelchair person waiting until they exit and give an "Oh I'm sorry".

SeaWorld has it right. They have designated nursing rooms and family rooms. Families go there and mostly leave the HA stalls free.

Like it or not, it is rude to hog the one stall out of 20 that you know a wheelchair guest is only able to use when that wheelchair user is waiting. That is entitlement. They are marked with wheelchair symbols for a reason, you know. Notice it's not a stroller symbol.

 

[Disney Villain]

This site outlines everything about DAS, it even has pictures. I came across it on tumblr.
http://dasgac13.tumblr.com/

 

[Gabe1]

Hey, who's got the entitlement attitude here? Does a mother need to take her 5, 7 and 3 yr old into the one stall a wheelchair person can use so all can go to the bathroom? Yup, that's happened to me. I've also taken kids (my nieces) to the restroom myself many times over the years. We developed a system of keeping feet by the door and talking to each other. There are infants that need changing, I understand that. I encounter those families in the companion/family restrooms (sometimes the only option nearby for a wheelchair user). We try to share those spaces as fairly and effectively as possible. Prioritizing needs is a good thing to try. Just the other day I went into the companion restroom at EPCOT FutureWorld. A dad showed up behind me with his child in a stroller. I really really needed to go while he said he could wait, so I went in first and hurried as quickly as possible for him. Other times I've ushered the parent past me because my need could wait a couple minutes and there's couldn't. Or I went in search of another bathroom.

There are often other slightly larger stalls nearby the one large HA stall. It's big enough for two people to enter but not for a wheelchair user. At the very least, it is inconsiderate to take extra time to let your little darling princess change her clothes, play in the sink and recite all her favorite Disney songs while the mom brushes her hair, all while a wheelchair user is patiently waiting outside the door. I once had to wait for a mom to convince her son that he really did need to go when the little prince sat there for 10 minutes wailing he didn't. The CM intervened for me knocking on the stall door to let her know a wheelchair guest was waiting.

I understand when I have to wait an extra minute or two for the HA stall to open. People have no idea a wheelchair user is going to arrive after they go in. But it's when I have to wait 5-10 minutes for that able-bodied person to vacate while other able-bodied people are entering and exiting stalls I cannot use all around me that it gets to be an issue.

When I'm in one of those stalls I always keep an eye on the floor outside it. If I see a wheelchair come up, I expedite my actions and call out to them I am clearing out as quickly as possible. Most moms with kids don't show the same courtesy. They don't even realize there is a wheelchair person waiting until they exit and give an "Oh I'm sorry".

SeaWorld has it right. They have designated nursing rooms and family rooms. Families go there and mostly leave the HA stalls free.

Like it or not, it is rude to hog the one stall out of 20 that you know a wheelchair guest is only able to use when that wheelchair user is waiting. That is entitlement. They are marked with wheelchair symbols for a reason, you know. Notice it's not a stroller symbol.

Oh my it is all about you now isn't it? The more you defend your need to first and foremost the more you need to defend yourself. Ugh.

Did you notice there is child seats attached to the wall in many of the accessible stalls. Notice that many accessible stalls have changing tables in them? The stalls are not reserved for wheelchair only use, the sign is an indicator that it is accessible not reserved for wheelchairs only, that is an entitlement perspective.

And wheelchairs are not the only disability that are afforded accessibility. Did you ever think beyond a wheelchair that some children at WDW are autistic and need to be with their parent. Or that there are Type 1 diabetic children that need to use an accessible washroom so parents can give them the drugs they need? There are children who are visually impaired that might need their parents assistance. Take a look at the strollers tagged with the green light GAC for Make A Wish children. So yes, I've seen the sign that you believe indicates it is reserved for wheelchair only disabilities. I just take issue with that First World perspective.

 

[BroganMc]

This site outlines everything about DAS, it even has pictures. I came across it on tumblr.
http://dasgac13.tumblr.com/

Yup did you read the part about "Guests with Wheelchairs"?

- If a guest has a wheelchair, ECV, or has a tagged stroller they are not eligible to participate in the DAS program.

- Almost all attraction queues at Walt Disney World are wheelchair accessible.

- Those attractions with non-accessible queues will give wheelchair guests and their parties a pass where a return time will be written for the said attraction.

- It is possible however for those guests returning to incur greater wait times than the standby line, due to other wheelchair parties boarding the attraction.
-

Yup, and you guys wonder what has me bothered by this new program? Great so now not only can I not have the option of scheduling a ride for myself and waiting in a place away from the throng (unless of course I happen to be staying at a resort that is testing MagicBands and FP+, which I'm not), but I'll still be dealing with the nightmare of the wheelchair queue for that one accessible vehicle.

And CMs I talk to here (I mean in WDW right now) tell me "Oh it's fine. You'll just get a return pass."

Yeah, if I could even physically go on the rides that have inaccessible queues like Splash, Big Thunder or Space. Remember, TSM is an "accessible queue". It just has a nightmare of a wheelchair loading bay lumping transfer and non-transfer folks together using the same two vehicles!

I guess there will be a lot of permanent wheelchair users like me going to GR and finding out exactly what this all means. (Or finding their conditions worsening just for the sake of begging for a pass to schedule a return.)

This is not the way to curb abuse, but it sure is a good way of cutting down that queue. People will just decide it isn't worth the hassle of going to Disney if you are that physically disabled. Instead I guess the wheelchair queue will be filled with those creative enough to have line-avoidance disorders that don't really have anything to do with using a wheelchair.

There's more in there that alarms me. It pretty much suggests anyone wanting a DAS card must subject themselves to a kind of third degree about their needs and the CM will judge if they can get a card.

I think I'll go to Guest Relations next week just to observe the fiasco that causes. Should be interesting.

 

[startraveler]

Hey, who's got the entitlement attitude here? Does a mother need to take her 5, 7 and 3 yr old into the one stall a wheelchair person can use so all can go to the bathroom? Yup, that's happened to me. I've also taken kids (my nieces) to the restroom myself many times over the years. We developed a system of keeping feet by the door and talking to each other. There are infants that need changing, I understand that. I encounter those families in the companion/family restrooms (sometimes the only option nearby for a wheelchair user). We try to share those spaces as fairly and effectively as possible. Prioritizing needs is a good thing to try. Just the other day I went into the companion restroom at EPCOT FutureWorld. A dad showed up behind me with his child in a stroller. I really really needed to go while he said he could wait, so I went in first and hurried as quickly as possible for him. Other times I've ushered the parent past me because my need could wait a couple minutes and there's couldn't. Or I went in search of another bathroom.

There are often other slightly larger stalls nearby the one large HA stall. It's big enough for two people to enter but not for a wheelchair user. At the very least, it is inconsiderate to take extra time to let your little darling princess change her clothes, play in the sink and recite all her favorite Disney songs while the mom brushes her hair, all while a wheelchair user is patiently waiting outside the door. I once had to wait for a mom to convince her son that he really did need to go when the little prince sat there for 10 minutes wailing he didn't. The CM intervened for me knocking on the stall door to let her know a wheelchair guest was waiting.

I understand when I have to wait an extra minute or two for the HA stall to open. People have no idea a wheelchair user is going to arrive after they go in. But it's when I have to wait 5-10 minutes for that able-bodied person to vacate while other able-bodied people are entering and exiting stalls I cannot use all around me that it gets to be an issue.

When I'm in one of those stalls I always keep an eye on the floor outside it. If I see a wheelchair come up, I expedite my actions and call out to them I am clearing out as quickly as possible. Most moms with kids don't show the same courtesy. They don't even realize there is a wheelchair person waiting until they exit and give an "Oh I'm sorry".

SeaWorld has it right. They have designated nursing rooms and family rooms. Families go there and mostly leave the HA stalls free.

Like it or not, it is rude to hog the one stall out of 20 that you know a wheelchair guest is only able to use when that wheelchair user is waiting. That is entitlement. They are marked with wheelchair symbols for a reason, you know. Notice it's not a stroller symbol.

The times I hate to wait outside the companion rooms (I need assistance from a female caregiver) are when there's obviously a male and a female in there looking for a little privacy ( wink, wink) or a a whole family - mother, father and kids - or people changing their clothes, putting on make up etc. they could have used regular bathrooms. Well...except for those looking for privacy. . You are right...most people don't understand how long it takes us to do everything. Or how many times we're turned away when standing in mainstream lines. Friendship boats, ferry, shows, buses. But I go on too much... Suffice it to say that even with the old fashioned card which will probably not be available to us anymore, we don't come anywhere near to having that superior experience you think we have or even equal experience you think we should have. Again, not trying to argue. Just educate.

 

[BigThunderMatt]

The blame also rests on everyone who feels they are entitled to ride and experience more than everyone else.

Exactly. Truth is, the abusers were getting to experience (on a busier than average day) way more than a guest who had no disability. Now, grant it, if you're a WDW vet or an AP who has the luxury of picking and choosing when you go and you know how to move around the park, you can probably experience more than the average guest in a typical day. That's not because you have some magic pass however, it's because you're know what you're doing and what times to avoid things etc. A typical family who may be there for their first visit or who hasn't been in years is not going to follow such a routine and will likely experience much less, even on a slower day.

By definition the GAC system was inadvertently positively discriminating against guests with disabilities by providing them what many would consider to be a better experience. Sure, those guests without disabilities might not know all the struggles that go along with having a disabled child or a mobility issue, but perception is reality to them and when they see people with disabilities just blowing on by, attraction after attraction, it's going to look like they have it made to them, which is why the GAC, coupled with the ease of obtaining one, became so tempting to people who did not have legitimate disabilities requiring use of the system.

The new system eliminates a lot of that temptation to all but the most unscrupulous. The pass provides you accommodations if you have some kind of disability that prevents you from physically waiting in the line, but they still ask that you wait, therefore enforcing the idea to disabled and non-disabled guests alike that nobody has a significant advantage over the other and providing an equal experience.

 

[startraveler]

Exactly. Truth is, the abusers were getting to experience (on a busier than average day) way more than a guest who had no disability. Now, grant it, if you're a WDW vet or an AP who has the luxury of picking and choosing when you go and you know how to move around the park, you can probably experience more than the average guest in a typical day. That's not because you have some magic pass however, it's because you're know what you're doing and what times to avoid things etc. A typical family who may be there for their first visit or who hasn't been in years is not going to follow such a routine and will likely experience much less, even on a slower day.

By definition the GAC system was inadvertently positively discriminating against guests with disabilities by providing them what many would consider to be a better experience. Sure, those guests without disabilities might not know all the struggles that go along with having a disabled child or a mobility issue, but perception is reality to them and when they see people with disabilities just blowing on by, attraction after attraction, it's going to look like they have it made to them, which is why the GAC, coupled with the ease of obtaining one, became so tempting to people who did not have legitimate disabilities requiring use of the system.

The new system eliminates a lot of that temptation to all but the most unscrupulous. The pass provides you accommodations if you have some kind of disability that prevents you from physically waiting in the line, but they still ask that you wait, therefore enforcing the idea to disabled and non-disabled guests alike that nobody has a significant advantage over the other and providing an equal experience.

It is not a significant advantage to wait in a special wheelchair car line for up to an hour after the main stream line. There is no way for our experiences to be equal. I understand there is no way a card or being allowed to go through the fast pass line to get to the second line for the wheelchair car makes my experience equal to the average guest. I have been stepped on climbed over, etc. in stand by lines when people behind me need to loaded first and there isn't enough room to pull me and my party to the side. I would love to see Peter pan or pirates of the caribbean! Alas I can't. But I am happy I can at least go and do a few things and pay exactly the same price you pay. Many parks give me and a caregiver a discounted ticket to make up for the limited experience compared to the able bodied guest. I can't imagine how upset people would be if Disney ever did this. again, just educating.

 

[jaklgreen]

Here's the thing. According to the published rules and what I'm being told I am not entitled to get a DAS card. My issue is not waiting in a line or having to come back with a return ticket. It's that I cannot transfer out of my chair to a ride vehicle UNLESS it is a specifically accessible vehicle or I bring along my cadre of strong helpers to lift me. (As in the case of Test Track or POTC or Maelstrom where my ability to enjoy these attractions is completely dependent on having strong helpers who can lift me in and out of the boat/car. I cannot stay in rooms without roll-in showers because I have no other way of bathing. I cannot use pools or hot tubs without pool lifts.)

This is a loophole to the new DAS plan I am trying to educate you about. It does not adequately cover guests like myself who were directed to get the GAC with alternate entrances because CMs realized in practice they would always wait longer than the regular guest whether utilizing FP or Standby. But the new system says guests like myself should not get a DAS and should just go to the ride where they are directed to use Standby or FP, thus they are treated UNFAIRLY by necessity of having to wait longer for an appropriate ride vehicle.

I'm giving you a hard time about your knowledge because you've said some some things here that make me think you know a lot less than you think you do and are a little insensitive. (Like telling the parent with a child with CP she shouldn't bring her daughter to Disney because it's too hot.) I question if any caregiver can really know what the disabled person goes with unless they personally experienced the difficulties themselves. I've had issues where the people who helped me and thought they understood what I went thru suddenly had to endure a disability of their own. It was a completely different experience for them. (On my trip in 2008 my 70-something dad tripped, fell and broke his hip. Fortunately I could drive by then, had enough independence of my own that with a little help from CMs, strangers and a cadre of rotating family that I could exist and become a caretaker for him. We learned a lot that trip, mostly because I had experience knowing how to cope with physical disability and could effectively guide him. And he learned just how hard and defeating it was to not be able to walk, struggle to go to the bathroom, deal with pain and limitation. Poor man was ready to give up 3 days into rehab when I pointed out he still had more physical ability than I did in his arms/hands and he would get more ability back in weeks then I ever had.)

Problem is people who live with disabilities encounter so many little obstacles they refuse to make a big fuss over because it just wastes valuable energy. Often times it is just too difficult for companions to appreciate the hardness endured by viewing alone. Same as I cannot fully appreciate how a deaf or blind person goes through life. This is why sensitivity classes have students simulate blindness, deafness, limited mobility for themselves. It's not enough to just be told.

I have a question. On rides that only have 1 or 2 cars that accommodate wheelchairs(like TSM) do you think the lines would be a lot shorter if they only let those who can not transfer out of a wheelchair in them. For example, those who are in the rent a scooter who can walk go thru the line in their ECV and then after the stairs have them get in the regular car. I know when I wait in line for TSM I can see that there is a big line over where the wheelchairs are and the majority of them are the people in the ECV. To me it would make for sense, since they obviously can walk, that they should have them get in the regular line and not take up the special cars for wheelchairs. I know that ride in particular is set up bad but I am sure they can do something about it.

 

[startraveler]

I have a question. On rides that only have 1 or 2 cars that accommodate wheelchairs(like TSM) do you think the lines would be a lot shorter if they only let those who can not transfer out of a wheelchair in them. For example, those who are in the rent a scooter who can walk go thru the line in their ECV and then after the stairs have them get in the regular car. I know when I wait in line for TSM I can see that there is a big line over where the wheelchairs are and the majority of them are the people in the ECV. To me it would make for sense, since they obviously can walk, that they should have them get in the regular line and not take up the special cars for wheelchairs. I know that ride in particular is set up bad but I am sure they can do something about it.

A lot of those people cannot do steps. So their families come with them to this loading area. Sometimes they take those people to enter at the exit point. Most of the time they just go around me and family since they don't need the car that can be adapted - they just hop on, but they've avoided the steps in the regular line.