Frozen Ever After: Norway (Epcot) vs. Frozen lands (other parks)

Sharon&Susan

Well-Known Member
Except that Dumbo is not in Fantasyland proper, it's off to the side. And technically, Mickey is on Main Street.
Dumbo and the Mickey Mouse Club Theater were both Disneyland opening year attractions located in Fantasyland as any map from that period will tell you. Mickey Mouse wasn't a big fixture of Main Street on the other side of the railroad tracks until the 60's when Meet & Greets became a regular occurrence.

If you're referring to Magic Kingdom, Dumbo is in Storybook Circus which as you mentioned is in Fantasyland, just like all the other Dumbos not in Mainland China. Mickey has had both the Mickey Mouse Revue and Mickey's Phillarmagic in Magic Kingdom.

They tried to incorporate it in, it's based on the culture, and that's all that matters. Is it perfect? Probably not. But you can't say they didn't try. I accept it as being where it is. I think they did a decent job with it. Maybe not perfect, but still decent.

In my opinion, a log flume ride themed to "The Princess and the Frog" will stick out even more. To that end, what does a log flume ride themed to the Old South have to do with the Old West, particularly since it ruins the careful design of Frontierland and Liberty Square.
It's great that they took inspiration from Norwegian architecture when reworking it! But I don't think the ride portion of the retheme itself would be that different if in the 80's they built a Danish or Swedish pavilion with a boat ride with the same layout as Malestrom and that's what they turned into a Frozen ride. IMO

Also to quote myself again:
And just because A thing is bad, doesn't make less offensive B suddenly good. I can say the special effects look terrible in a recent movie and pointing to some terrible special effects obscure B movie made on a shoestring budget doesn't suddenly make the bad special effects good.
 

mharrington

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
If you're referring to Magic Kingdom, Dumbo is in Storybook Circus which as you mentioned is in Fantasyland, just like all the other Dumbos not in Mainland China. Mickey has had both the Mickey Mouse Revue and Mickey's Phillarmagic in Magic Kingdom.

I meant to say that Dumbo in the Magic Kingdom is located in Storybook Circus, which should be in its own little land, as it doesn't feel like Fantasyland at all. I have nothing to say about Mickey, as he's kind of all over the place, and rightfully so.

It's great that they took inspiration from Norwegian architecture when reworking it! But I don't think the ride portion of the retheme itself would be that different if in the 80's they built a Danish or Swedish pavilion with a boat ride with the same layout as Malestrom and that's what they turned into a Frozen ride. IMO

I honestly think that a log flume themed to the Old South in a land otherwise devoted to the Old West sticks out more. They try and fit in Splash Mountain to the surrounding area, but it's still themed to the Old South. And I feel as though it will stick out even more when it gets rethemed to "The Princess and the Frog", if the artwork is anything to go on. I have no objections with the same ride being themed the same way in Disneyland because it's not in Frontierland, but in Critter Country, right next door to New Orleans Square, which would compliment things quite nicely (and some have even speculated that the ride may even be incorporated into NOS). However, the ride is set in Frontierland in WDW, so it's going to stick out even more and be even less thematically appropriate than a Frozen ride in Norway. What are your thoughts on an Old South log flume in a land otherwise devoted to the Old West?
 

Sharon&Susan

Well-Known Member
What are your thoughts on an Old South log flume in a land otherwise devoted to the Old West?
It doesn't really work especially being right next to a mountain from the southwest. Splash should've located in a new forest area behind the Rivers of America or even have it replace 20K lagoon or the Mickey Starland tents in Fantasyland. I don't have any problems personally with non-European fairy/storybook tales being represented in Fantasyland.

I'll just end things here so this coversation doesn't go on forever.
 

LittleMerman

Well-Known Member
I'm not upset at all that Frozen is in Norway. I love the movie, I get the tie, I understand the decision, and I didn't care about the ride as Maelstrom. However, I do wish we had gotten a whole Frozen land. It would have been cool for Hollywood Studios (not really theme-wise but almost nothing makes sense theme-wise there anymore). Galaxy's Edge and Toy Story Land are cool but I'd like to see more princess representation in HS besides a couple stage shows.

As for Paris, Hong Kong, and Tokyo - from my understanding, Paris and Hong Kong will be clones with a few additional scenes. This isn't new - Disney has been cloning for years. And I believe the Tokyo ride will be different. I've heard rumors that it will utilize the Shanghai Pirates ride system.
 

Sharon&Susan

Well-Known Member
I'm not upset at all that Frozen is in Norway. I love the movie, I get the tie, I understand the decision, and I didn't care about the ride as Maelstrom. However, I do wish we had gotten a whole Frozen land. It would have been cool for Hollywood Studios (not really theme-wise but almost nothing makes sense theme-wise there anymore). Galaxy's Edge and Toy Story Land are cool but I'd like to see more princess representation in HS besides a couple stage shows.

As for Paris, Hong Kong, and Tokyo - from my understanding, Paris and Hong Kong will be clones with a few additional scenes. This isn't new - Disney has been cloning for years. And I believe the Tokyo ride will be different. I've heard rumors that it will utilize the Shanghai Pirates ride system.
Not sure what's rumored about Tokyo's ride system, but I think Paris and Hong Kong will be using the Shanghai Pirates ride system for their Frozen Ever After clones. Better capacity and more reliable than what's at Epcot as I understand it.
 

mharrington

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It's vaguely inspired by medieval Europe but it's not supposed to be actually representative of them. It's not an attempt to accurately represent a real nation/culture.

Then what does it represent? Furthermore, doesn't Small World represent nations/cultures, too?
 

LittleMerman

Well-Known Member
Not sure what's rumored about Tokyo's ride system, but I think Paris and Hong Kong will be using the Shanghai Pirates ride system for their Frozen Ever After clones. Better capacity and more reliable than what's at Epcot as I understand it.
Oh wow, I hadn't heard that before. Cool! Guess we'll see!
 

mharrington

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It doesn't really work especially being right next to a mountain from the southwest. Splash should've located in a new forest area behind the Rivers of America or even have it replace 20K lagoon or the Mickey Starland tents in Fantasyland. I don't have any problems personally with non-European fairy/storybook tales being represented in Fantasyland.

How would "The Princess and the Frog" have fit any better in Fantasyland? What does Fantasyland represent anyway? Doesn't Small World represent nations/cultures, just like World Showcase?
 

Inspired Figment

Well-Known Member
How would "The Princess and the Frog" have fit any better in Fantasyland? What does Fantasyland represent anyway? Doesn't Small World represent nations/cultures, just like World Showcase?
Nope but that particular attraction represents children from each respective real world country. Small World’s always been an odd/strange fit for Fantasyland in that regard. Though, to be fair, at the time it was built there just wasn’t much space nor any other parks built to place it elsewhere. In all honesty, Small World would’ve fit much better as a transition point between Future World & World Showcase at EPCOT…
And hey, had Disney actually thought & genuinely cared more about things like thematic integrity for each park & area.. perhaps it would’ve been a better solution, if they ever thought to add a new attraction to Magic Kingdom’s Fantasyland & needed to use the Small World real-estate/plot of land, they could’ve added a new fantasy story/film IP attraction there (something like Frozen Ever After but better) and then moved Small World to EPCOT’s World Showcase as a transition point attraction between Future World & World Showcase. Could’ve even brought back Mary Blair’s mural if they wanted to for it. Speaking of which, why do you think people were so angry when Disney later shoehorned film IP characters throughout the attraction at DL? Cause it detracted from the attraction’s original/intended focus/theme.. that being a showcase of ‘real’ children around the world. (Not fictional film characters).
 
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Inspired Figment

Well-Known Member
How would "The Princess and the Frog" have fit any better in Fantasyland? What does Fantasyland represent anyway? Doesn't Small World represent nations/cultures, just like World Showcase?
And like everyone’s said before, Fantasyland as a whole, indeed, is supposed to represent the fictional worlds & characters from fantasy stories & fairytales. Hence why Princess & the Frog fits there but It’s a Small World actually doesn’t. (Not to say it’s a bad attraction in itself/on its own either, Small World’s one of the best, all time classics that debuted at the NY World’s Fair. )
 
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mharrington

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Nope but that particular attraction represents children from each respective real world country. Small World’s always been an odd/strange fit for Fantasyland in that regard. Though, to be fair, at the time it was built there just wasn’t much space nor any other parks built to place it elsewhere. In all honesty, Small World would’ve fit much better as a transition point between Future World & World Showcase at EPCOT…
And hey, had Disney actually thought & genuinely cared more about things like thematic integrity for each park & area.. perhaps it would’ve been a better solution, if they ever thought to add a new attraction to Magic Kingdom’s Fantasyland & needed to use the Small World real-estate/plot of land, they could’ve added a new fantasy story/film IP attraction there (something like Frozen Ever After but better) and then moved Small World to EPCOT’s World Showcase as a transition point attraction between Future World & World Showcase. Could’ve even brought back Mary Blair’s mural if they wanted to for it. Speaking of which, why do you think people were so angry when Disney later shoehorned film IP characters throughout the attraction at DL? Cause it detracted from the attraction’s original/intended focus/theme.. that being a showcase of ‘real’ children around the world. (Not fictional film characters).

Why do you think that Disney should never have IP film characters anyplace at all? And if Small World were put in EPCOT, it would be in Future World as much as World Showcase. Why do you think that real places and movie characters should never be allowed to mix? You seem to think that IP characters should be limited only to either Fantasyland or Hollywood Studios and nowhere else. By that logic, Mickey Mouse should not be doing meet-n-greets on Main Street or (in Disneyland's case) Toontown. In fact, Toontown should not exist at all.

And if there was any criticism of movie characters in Small World, it didn't last long. They have since added characters, including several from after 2009, to the Tokyo version as well. Rumor has it that Florida's version may be getting them, too.
 
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Inspired Figment

Well-Known Member
Why do you think that Disney should never have IP film characters anyplace at all? And if Small World were put in EPCOT, it would be in Future World as much as World Showcase. Why do you think that real places and movie characters should never be allowed to mix?

And if there was any criticism of movie characters in the ride, it didn't last long. They have since added characters, including several from after 2009, to the Tokyo version as well. Rumor has it that Florida's version may be getting them, too.
That’s clearly not what I’m saying. They ‘should’ be in places appropriate if either there is no other park they can be placed in that fits better or nothing can be done to fix the pre-existing attraction or concept and the execution & focus should be done in a way that stays true to the theme of the park & area they’re placed in. (See Wonders of Life’s Goofy About Health show & Sensory Funhouse exhibit and The Land’s Circle of Life film, and Three Caballeros Grand Fiesta Tour & Coco exhbit in Mexico for the best examples of Cartoon and/or Film IP based attractions done correctly at EPCOT). Also, all the other Fantasyland attractions in regards to them fitting properly with the area’s general theme/purpose (with the exception of It’s a Small World.)

At the same time though. Not ‘every’ DisneyParks attraction needs a film IP tie-in or an uneccesary shoehorn of film IP placed into it. Especially if they already have their own park original characters or memorable icons within them already (see the Ghosts in Haunted Mansion, Birds in the Enchanted Tiki Room, the family in the Carousel of Progress, Country Bear Jamboree, the stylized children in It’s a Small World, Dreamfinder & Figment in the Original ‘83-98 Journey Into Imagination, General Knowledge & Captain Buzzy in Cranium Command, Bonnie & the food performers in Kitchen Kabaret, Lord Henry Mystic & Albert in Mystic Manor, and Sindbad & Chandu in Sindbad’s Storybook Voyage, just to name a few). There’s room to have a better balance of both types of attractions. Both park original concepts ‘and’ film IP attractions.. though you’d expect they’d be tailored for each park individually.

Let’s put it this way.. do you think the ‘Honey, I Shrunk’/ Medfield College universe film rethemes done to Journey Into Imagination & ImageWorks were neccesary or an improvement over the original incarnation which was beloved as is? Do you think Honey I Shrunk the Audience fit well within the Imagination pavilion when it probably should’ve & could’ve been placed at DHS to go with the Honey I shrunk the Kids themed areas there at the time? Same goes for Enchanted Tiki Room: Under New Management with Iago & Zazu shoehorned in. Probably not, right? They could’ve updated or enhanced those a lot more tastefully. (See Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln, The American Adventure, & DL’s Fantasyland ride updates for examples of enhancements done properly) Or heck, just did ‘temporary’ overlays ala the Country Bear Christmas & Vacation shows or Haunted Mansion Holiday rather than permanently overlay or replace their original incarnations.
 
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mharrington

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
That’s clearly ‘not’ what I’m saying. They ‘should’ be in places appropriate if nothing can be done to fix the pre-existing attraction or concept and the execution & focus should be done in a way that stays true to the theme of the park & area they’re placed in. (See Wonders of Life’s Goofy About Health, The Land’s Circle of Life film for the best examples of Cartoon and/or Film IP based attractions done correctly at EPCOT). Also, all the other Fantasyland attractions (with the exception of It’s a Small World.)

That's the impression I'm getting, that characters from "fantasy" settings should stay in "fantasy" settings. And for better or worse, EPCOT's identity is changing. What will happen with EPCOT's identity after all the drastic changes there are done? Only time will tell. But for better or worse, the 1982 theme is long gone, just as it has changed from Walt's original intention of an actual City of Tomorrow, which at least one video argues would probably have been unrealistic anyway, that like Tomorrowland or Future World, Walt's City of Tomorrow would eventually become just another present-day city:


At the same time though. Not ‘every’ DisneyParks attraction needs a film IP tie-in or an uneccesary shoehorn of film IP placed into it. Especially if they already have their own park original characters or memorable icons within them already (see the Ghosts in Haunted Mansion, Birds in the Enchanted Tiki Room, the family in the Carousel of Progress, Country Bear Jamboree, the stylized children in It’s a Small World, Dreamfinder & Figment in the Original ‘83-98 Journey Into Imagination, General Knowledge & Captain Buzzy in Cranium Command, Lord Henry Mystic & Albert in Mystic Manor, and Sindbad & Chandu in Sindbad’s Storybook Voyage, just to name a few). There’s room to have a better balance of both types of attractions. Both park original concepts ‘and’ film IP attractions.. though you’d expect they’d be tailored for each park individually.

Let’s put it this way.. do you think the ‘Honey, I Shrunk’/ Medfield College universe film rethemes done to Journey Into Imagination were neccesary or an improvement over the original incarnation which was beloved as is? Do you think Honey I Shrunk the Audience fit well within the Imagination pavilion? Same goes for Enchanted Tiki Room: Under New Management with Iago & Zazu shoehorned in. Probably not, right? They could’ve updated or enhanced those a lot more tastefully. (See Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln, The American Adventure, & DL’s Fantasyland ride enchantments for examples of enhancements done properly) Or heck, just did ‘temporary’ overlays ala the Country Bear Christmas & Vacation shows or Haunted Mansion Holiday rather than permanently overlay or replace their original incarnations.

Like I said, I will grant that there are many things that Disney has done that I don't like, and those that you have listed, I would agree with, especially the Imagination pavilion. But they all rank higher than Frozen being in the Norway pavilion. Are you saying that Disney currently has no "taste", as you call it? At least the original Tiki Room show is back (albeit shortened). And who knows? Given what's happening with EPCOT now, maybe they'll do something with the Imagination pavilion that will, if not bring back the original ride, then at least remove the "Honey, I Shrunk the Audience" retheme and give Figment more representation and maybe even bring back Dreamfinder, too. Again, only time will tell.

To get back to Hollywood Studios, there was a time when it was a working studio, or at least that was the intention. But it didn't work out that way. While on the subject of rides being removed/replaced, the decline and eventual removal of the Backstage Studio Tour is probably the most emblematic of the park's theme being changed. Watch this video from Yesterworld on the ride's history, and you'll see what I mean:
 

Inspired Figment

Well-Known Member
That's the impression I'm getting, that characters from "fantasy" settings should stay in "fantasy" settings. And for better or worse, EPCOT's identity is changing. What will happen with EPCOT's identity after all the drastic changes there are done? Only time will tell. But for better or worse, the 1982 theme is long gone, just as it has changed from Walt's original intention of an actual City of Tomorrow, which at least one video argues would probably have been unrealistic anyway, that like Tomorrowland or Future World, Walt's City of Tomorrow would eventually become just another present-day city:




Like I said, I will grant that there are many things that Disney has done that I don't like, and those that you have listed, I would agree with, especially the Imagination pavilion. But they all rank higher than Frozen being in the Norway pavilion. Are you saying that Disney currently has no "taste", as you call it? At least the original Tiki Room show is back (albeit shortened). And who knows? Given what's happening with EPCOT now, maybe they'll do something with the Imagination pavilion that will, if not bring back the original ride, then at least remove the "Honey, I Shrunk the Audience" retheme and give Figment more representation and maybe even bring back Dreamfinder, too. Again, only time will tell.

To get back to Hollywood Studios, there was a time when it was a working studio, or at least that was the intention. But it didn't work out that way. While on the subject of rides being removed/replaced, the decline and eventual removal of the Backstage Studio Tour is probably the most emblematic of the park's theme being changed. Watch this video from Yesterworld on the ride's history, and you'll see what I mean:

While it may be true that the themes at the parks are changing.. do you genuinely feel that’s for the better? Or are you only accepting it because “it is what it is” due to upper management’s lack of care for and/or understanding it? Do you really feel that the original themes, mission statements, and the focus on real world topics & concepts aren’t at all salvageable? You could easily argue that even though Walt’s EPCOT never quite came to fruition the way he originally envisioned it.. They took the idea that all of Walt Disney World parks & it’s resorts would in essence would be ‘EPCOT’ the city, .. while ‘EPCOT ‘Center’ was the place that represented the key concepts, achievements, & values that Walt believed would provide a better future of living.
Working together with American companies & industries to present ‘real world’ subjects that were essential to ‘improving our future’ in a way that inspired & captivated others in a way only Disney could. (Unlike DL & MK’s Tomorrowland which suffered from being focused entirely ‘on’ the future in & itself.. mainly “the possible future potential of space travel/living”.. rather than known currently functioning subjects that helped (and are still in the process of helping) ‘shape’ a better future. So no, it did ‘not’ suffer ‘the Tomorrowland problem’ as many folks say. There’s a key misunderstanding of what people believe the focus of each area was, Tomorrowland & Future World respectfully). That Along with presenting pavilions that showcased real countries & their culture, people, and achievements and how that all too has been an important & relevant part to our world’s survival.

And sure, perhaps the sponsorship model hasn’t worked entirely. But the overall core concepts & goal of the park wasn’t any real problem or issue.

Then comes the notion of, was Disney’s MGM Studios as a concept truly not sustainable or salvageable.. or was it simply upper management’s lack of care & poor management decisions that led to it’s downfall as a real working studio? I feel like it very easily could ‘still’ be a functioning studio complex but updated accordingly. With them filming some of their newest live action shows & features there.. along with ‘updating’ the animation studio to utilize the current tech they’re using now to produce the stuff they are on the streaming service (if upper management saw the value & potential in it) Just something to consider/think about.
 
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Inspired Figment

Well-Known Member
The way Universal Studios has been handled over the years in comparison to Disney’s MGM/Hollywood studios would tell me that it wasn’t a unsustainable concept. It was simply mismanaged.
 

mharrington

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
While it may be true that the themes at the parks are changing.. do you genuinely feel that’s for the better? Or are you only accepting it because “it is what it is” due to upper management’s lack of care for and/or understanding it?

Aside from voting with our wallets and never going to the parks again, there's really not much we can do about it. It's a pity, I know, but we don't really have much control over it. Are you saying that management should just ignore the needs of shareholders in favor of the wants of fans?

Do you really feel that the original themes, mission statements, and the focus on real world topics & concepts aren’t at all salvageable? You could easily argue that even though Walt’s EPCOT never quite came to fruition the way he originally envisioned it.. They took the idea that all of Walt Disney World parks & it’s resorts would in essence would be ‘EPCOT’ the city, .. while ‘EPCOT ‘Center’ was the place that represented the key concepts, achievements, & values that Walt believed would provide a better future of living.
Working together with American companies & industries to present ‘real world’ subjects that were essential to ‘improving our future’ in a way that inspired & captivated others in a way only Disney could. (Unlike DL & MK’s Tomorrowland which suffered from being focused entirely ‘on’ the future itself.. mainly “the future of space travel/living”.. rather than known currently functioning subjects that helped (and are still in the process of helping) ‘shape’ a better future. So no, it did ‘not’ suffer ‘the Tomorrowland problem’ as many folks say. There’s a key misunderstanding of what the focus of each area was, Tomorrowland & Future World respectfully). That Along with presenting pavilions that showcased real countries & their culture, people, and achievements and how that all too has been an important & relevant part to our world’s survival.

Sadly, only Walt could pull off a City of Tomorrow, but when he passed away and his brother and business partner Roy took the helm, Roy quietly erased EPCOT from all plans for Florida. So really, if anyone is to blame, it's Roy, who is always looking for ways to finance his brother's dreams, which often led to stormy disagreements between the brothers. In this case, Roy insisted that they build the amusement park first, to establish a money flow, while Walt wanted to jump in on the city. And then Roy passed away shortly after the Magic Kingdom's opening in 1971. And it's not fair to just blame current management for all of Disney's problems. In the '70s, Disney management then didn't have a clue how to go about building a City of Tomorrow.

And to your claim about how all of WDW was EPCOT in a way, to quote David Koenig's book on WDW called "Realityland":

[E]xcept for the monorail, all of the experimental elements were behind the scenes, invisible to the public. Consequently, there began to rise a growing suspicion of the Reedy Creek Improvement District. As expansion continued at a frenetic pace across Disney property, critics saw a company-owned government that appeared to be rubber-stamping whatever the company wanted. Disney, of course, would argue that its relationship with Reedy Creek wasn't underhanded, merely more efficient. By eliminating burdensome red tape, everyone could focus on what was truly important - creating safe, sound structures - instead of rote fulfilling of obligations and completing of checklists. Building codes demanding the use of time-honored materials and techniques by definition outlawed innovation.

Later in the same book, there's this blurb:

[Walt] hoped companies would fill his [City of Tomorrow] with factories and research laboratories where visitors could learn about emerging technologies and inventions, and employ them in their own home, business or country.

But big business doesn't work that way. And Disney, of all companies, with its doors always locked and shades always drawn, should have known better. There are few competitive advantages more valuable to a company than proprietary products and systems, and little financial incentive to letting the world in on every stage of development and advertising it not as something to buy, but to borrow and profit from on your own.


Finally, the book concludes this way:

In the end, Disney came to terms with the fact that, at least without Walt, it was an entertainment company - granted, a highly proficient and successful one, but one beholden to millions of shareholders. It could no longer take the risks necessary to change the world by building a futuristic city. Maybe one day another innovator will come along who can pull off a real, live Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow. Sadly, this world doesn't produce a whole lot of Walt Disneys.

Then comes the notion of, was Disney’s MGM Studios as a concept truly not sustainable or salvageable.. or was it simply upper management’s lack of care & poor management decisions that led to it’s downfall as a real working studio? I feel like it very easily could ‘still’ be a functioning studio complex but updated accordingly. With them filming some of their newest live action shows & features there.. along with ‘updating’ the animation studio to utilize the current tech they’re using now to produce the stuff they are on the streaming service (if upper management saw the value & potential in it) Just something to consider/think about.
Part of it was that Hollywood didn't want to move all the way out to Florida, which was impractical. So no, it seems as though a working studio would never have been truly sustainable in the long run. The Animation thing at the Studios shut down in 2004 after the last (or second-to-last after several years) 2D animated film, "Home On the Range", flopped. Ever since then, with the exception of "The Princess and the Frog", all animated films were CG-rendered. And then there's the rise of DVD bonus features, which also do the job of letting people in on the production of movies, effectively making the Studios' purpose kind of redundant.

As for Universal, while it does use its facilities for production, it's not really for actual movies anymore, mostly things that are of little significance in the grand scheme of things.
 
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