"Frozen" coming to Disneyland?

[CaptinEO]

It's an interesting hypothetical. Would Pirates of the Caribbean be as popular as it currently is if it were the 1967 version of the attraction opened today? Maybe not. The amount of morons online who call for it to be replaced by the Shanghai version are a testament to that theory that it would not be. However, I would argue that Marc Davis' Pirates of the Caribbean, while not as technologically impressive as Shanghai's, has the same wow factor as Rise of the Resistance. Slower, sure, but the Wicked Wench exchanging volley with the Spanish Fort? That is just as impressive as the AT-AT's on Rise, if not more so given how much more dynamic it is with the smoke, the animatronics, the explosions in the water. And of course, the humor of dunking the mayor in the well, pirates wanting a busty redhead over a fat maid, prisoners trying to lure a dog with a bone because the dog has the key - all of these are funny gags, even in the current year; far more humorous than any of the gags on Mystic Manor (I must acknowledge Grizzly Gulch, however, for its bear gags are Marc Davis in quality and deserve recognition in this discussion).

Maybe Pirates isn't the fastest and that makes it boring to a generation whose favorite app is one that consists of 30 second videos, but the core content is still impressive, and I would say the same general comments apply to Haunted Mansion or any of the other Disneyland staples.

My main point in all of this is not that I think it's bad that Disney is making leaps in theme park technology, obviously I think that's great, but often it seems Disney is more interested in creating stories to showcase new technology, rather than creating new technology to showcase the story.

I think this new Pirate ride from Europaland shows that well done Pirate rides are definitely popular.



It absolutely smokes the 1960s Disney ride. If a ride with 60s tech opened today I doubt it would have the same impact as it would have if it came out during its own timeline.

A good ride is good regardless of technology, but new technology and illusions can absolutely add the wow factor to make something even better.

The old animatronics on Pirates and the Tiki Room for example are much different than what are currently on the rides.

 

[Rich T]

Come on. Barfy is too strong a word. It has issues, but it's a far bigger swing than 95% of what we've seen in the states the last 20 years, and better than a majority of those projects too. Clunky pacing and some odd staging don't undo all the good that is there.

A B&tB-style Frozen ride would still be 3 times better than Frozen Ever After. At least.

Ok, barfy was a bit too harsh. But I still can’t believe they devoted 1/3 of the ride to freaking “Something There” and then ignored the single most iconic scene in the movie and had Belle dance with Prince NoOneCares instead.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I don't think any of the rides mentioned above tell a story. I'd say they give people small elements that allow them to create their own story. The rides more so offer interesting experiences, characters, or themes.

Story doesn’t just mean linear narrative. Flying through space is a story. Simple, sweet, to the point.

 

[CaptinEO]

Story doesn’t just mean linear narrative. Flying through space is a story. Simple, sweet, to the point.

I mean I guess you can say anything is a story, but I wouldn't call it one.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

I think this new Pirate ride from Europaland shows that well done Pirate rides are definitely popular.



It absolutely smokes the 1960s Disney ride. If a ride with 60s tech opened today I doubt it would have the same impact as it would have if it came out during its own timeline.

A good ride is good regardless of technology, but new technology and illusions can absolutely add the wow factor to make something even better.

The old animatronics on Pirates and the Tiki Room for example are much different than what are currently on the rides.

Very impressive, for sure!

 

[mickEblu]

I think this new Pirate ride from Europaland shows that well done Pirate rides are definitely popular.



It absolutely smokes the 1960s Disney ride. If a ride with 60s tech opened today I doubt it would have the same impact as it would have if it came out during its own timeline.

A good ride is good regardless of technology, but new technology and illusions can absolutely add the wow factor to make something even better.

The old animatronics on Pirates and the Tiki Room for example are much different than what are currently on the rides.

Smokes it? How So? This ride looks like our POTC if it was built by modern Disney circa mid 2010's. More tech, before screens took took over but lacking charm, suspense and thrills. and a killer soundtrack/theme song.

 

[Practical Pig]

I think this new Pirate ride from Europaland shows that well done Pirate rides are definitely popular.



It absolutely smokes the 1960s Disney ride. If a ride with 60s tech opened today I doubt it would have the same impact as it would have if it came out during its own timeline.

A good ride is good regardless of technology, but new technology and illusions can absolutely add the wow factor to make something even better.

The old animatronics on Pirates and the Tiki Room for example are much different than what are currently on the rides.

It's certainly technologically impressive. But to me it's something of a bucketload of tech looking for a coherent structure. My not knowing the language is a barrier to story comprehension, of course, but there's an almost frantic cacophony to the visual language that confuses the storytelling experience for me. Disneyland's original POTC's slowly unfolding storytelling and visually distinct story beats is still unmatched.

 

[TP2000]

Disneyland's original POTC's slowly unfolding storytelling and visually distinct story beats is still unmatched.

I will forever love Walt's own words on how he wanted his audience to experience his Pirate ride as they floated by in boats. They would just come upon each scene already happening, and take in just a few random snippets of dialogue and action and visuals. Walt said something to the effect that it would be like "walking through a cocktail party, and eavesdropping on the conversations".

And as someone who has walked through many cocktail parties myself, that was a brilliant way to do it!

And it's why it works so well to this day. But I get the distinct feeling that today's crop of young Imagineers have never been invited to a real cocktail party, and don't know how to small talk, much less graciously gossip. They think LOUD NOISES BAM CRASH THIS WAY RECRUITS! is storytelling.

Or even worse, they're the types that think if you whisper it means you are really good at acting...

 

[britain]

I will forever love Walt's own words on how he wanted his audience to experience his Pirate ride as they floated by in boats. They would just come upon each scene already happening, and take in just a few random snippets of dialogue and action and visuals. Walt said something to the effect that it would be like "walking through a cocktail party, and eavesdropping on the conversations".

And as someone who has walked through many cocktail parties myself, that was a brilliant way to do it!

And it's why it works so well to this day. But I get the distinct feeling that today's crop of young Imagineers have never been invited to a real cocktail party, and don't know how to small talk, much less graciously gossip. They think LOUD NOISES BAM CRASH THIS WAY RECRUITS! is storytelling.

Or even worse, they're the types that think if you whisper it means you are really good at acting...

I agree with your point, but if I recall correctly, the cocktail party anecdote came about when they were giving Walt a walk-through of the not-quite-finished Pirates attraction (I gotta think this had to be very near his passing). By the end of the tour, X Atencio tells Walt, “I’m sorry, it’s a mess. You can’t really hear everything clearly, they’re all talking over each other.” And Walt says that’s fine, it’s like a cocktail party, and guests will catch something different each time they ride.

A nuanced difference, but I think so much of what works from the old days wasn’t intended. I’m sure the old guard from WED would have seized the technology of linear storytelling if it was available. (See what was originally intended in early walk-through Haunted Mansion designs vs. what was changed to accommodate the Omnimover.)

See also, filming finicky robot sharks.

 

[britain]

See ALSO how they thought DL’s version “took too long to unfold” due to logistics of getting from the blue bayou building past the train tracks. So they were determined to shorten that in the Florida version.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I’m sure the old guard from WED would have seized the technology of linear storytelling if it was available. (See what was originally intended in early walk-through Haunted Mansion designs vs. what was changed to accommodate the Omnimover.)

The technology was available. There’s a whole pre-Disneyland history of elaborate dark rides and panoramic experiences that told linear narratives.

 

[britain]

The technology was available. There’s a whole pre-Disneyland history of elaborate dark rides and panoramic experiences that told linear narratives.

But it wasn’t available in a way that still moved enough people through the attraction per hour. Both Pirates and Mansion were originally conceived with a whole lot of “you’re in this room, you watch this thing happen, it finishes happening, you go to the next room” and that just wasn’t cutting it operationally. Thus we have the invention of visual gags that run on loops, music that runs in loops, and vague storylines rather than explicit storylines.

 

[Consumer]

But it wasn’t available in a way that still moved enough people through the attraction per hour. Both Pirates and Mansion were originally conceived with a whole lot of “you’re in this room, you watch this thing happen, it finishes happening, you go to the next room” and that just wasn’t cutting it operationally. Thus we have the invention of visual gags that run on loops, music that runs in loops, and vague storylines rather than explicit storylines.

And honestly, it works better. Attractions like Mystic Manor are clunky, whereas the Haunted Mansion is smooth.

 

[lazyboy97o]

But it wasn’t available in a way that still moved enough people through the attraction per hour. Both Pirates and Mansion were originally conceived with a whole lot of “you’re in this room, you watch this thing happen, it finishes happening, you go to the next room” and that just wasn’t cutting it operationally. Thus we have the invention of visual gags that run on loops, music that runs in loops, and vague storylines rather than explicit storylines.

Again, there is a whole history of narrative experiences that predate Disneyland. Triggered show scenes being less operationally efficient than looping scenes is inherent to their nature, not a technological hurdle. They also didn’t invent looping effects to overcome the capacity concerns, they too already existed even at Disneyland.

 

[mickEblu]

And honestly, it works better. Attractions like Mystic Manor are clunky, whereas the Haunted Mansion is smooth.

That Europa Pirate ride came across to me as Pirate boat ride version of Mystic Manor

 

[J4546]

Build new pirates area in mk with new potc please. Make a treasure cove for FL

 

[Professortango1]

I will forever love Walt's own words on how he wanted his audience to experience his Pirate ride as they floated by in boats. They would just come upon each scene already happening, and take in just a few random snippets of dialogue and action and visuals. Walt said something to the effect that it would be like "walking through a cocktail party, and eavesdropping on the conversations".

And as someone who has walked through many cocktail parties myself, that was a brilliant way to do it!

And it's why it works so well to this day. But I get the distinct feeling that today's crop of young Imagineers have never been invited to a real cocktail party, and don't know how to small talk, much less graciously gossip. They think LOUD NOISES BAM CRASH THIS WAY RECRUITS! is storytelling.

Or even worse, they're the types that think if you whisper it means you are really good at acting...

Entertainment values change as society changes. Great acting in 1850 would be laughed at today and vice versa. I know in the theatre world, we have been moving to more immersive shows and things which make the audience feel like they are having a unique experience that isn't completely passive. With the inundation of passive storytelling being everywhere in floods, in combination with interactivity and personal voice being so prevalent, people want experiences that feel like they are being involved. They don't want to watch pirates fighting on the side, they want to have the pirates fight with them. This is why we aren't riding through Tatooine River Expedition, rolling past vistas of Cantinas and Dewbacks and Tusken camps, people want Stormtroppers to shoot at them.

This is why modern crowds are more often to talk and check social media when riding a ride like Pirates or HM. They don't feel involved, so they behave like they would when watching a passive movie at home. Nowadays, we have to give audiences a reason to put their phones down.

 

[Phroobar]

Entertainment values change as society changes. Great acting in 1850 would be laughed at today and vice versa. I know in the theatre world, we have been moving to more immersive shows and things which make the audience feel like they are having a unique experience that isn't completely passive. With the inundation of passive storytelling being everywhere in floods, in combination with interactivity and personal voice being so prevalent, people want experiences that feel like they are being involved. They don't want to watch pirates fighting on the side, they want to have the pirates fight with them. This is why we aren't riding through Tatooine River Expedition, rolling past vistas of Cantinas and Dewbacks and Tusken camps, people want Stormtroppers to shoot at them.

This is why modern crowds are more often to talk and check social media when riding a ride like Pirates or HM. They don't feel involved, so they behave like they would when watching a passive movie at home. Nowadays, we have to give audiences a reason to put their phones down.

That is the whole reason why Haunts are popular. You get to walk through a horror movie where you are the star. All the actors are there to make you scream. I was amazed by a couple that were constantly on their phone during pirates. How they got reception in the show building is beyond me. They waited an hour to get in and never looked up. I bet they were texting each other.

 

[TP2000]

I agree with your point, but if I recall correctly, the cocktail party anecdote came about when they were giving Walt a walk-through of the not-quite-finished Pirates attraction (I gotta think this had to be very near his passing). By the end of the tour, X Atencio tells Walt, “I’m sorry, it’s a mess. You can’t really hear everything clearly, they’re all talking over each other.” And Walt says that’s fine, it’s like a cocktail party, and guests will catch something different each time they ride.

A nuanced difference, but I think so much of what works from the old days wasn’t intended. I’m sure the old guard from WED would have seized the technology of linear storytelling if it was available. (See what was originally intended in early walk-through Haunted Mansion designs vs. what was changed to accommodate the Omnimover.)

See also, filming finicky robot sharks.

Thank you! That's it!

I honestly wanted to look up that cocktail party anecdote from the old 1990's E Ticket Magazine that I read it in as I was typing that, but they're all packed away in a storage unit right now. And my memory isn't what it used to be.

 

[TP2000]

This is why modern crowds are more often to talk and check social media when riding a ride like Pirates or HM. They don't feel involved, so they behave like they would when watching a passive movie at home. Nowadays, we have to give audiences a reason to put their phones down.

Fascinating insight, and I don't disagree with you at all.

But it always saddens me to see people at Disneyland on these multi-gazillion dollar attractions sitting there staring at their phones. I just think "Why did you even bother getting out of bed this morning?"