From the OS: Gator drags child into Seven Seas Lagoon

[Ignohippo]

Yep and don't expect it to change - I live here - living with gators is part of life. With that being said, no amount of Disney signage would have prevented this. As an AP holder I'm on WDW property weekly, people swim in these damn lakes! I told a couple just a few weeks ago at the Polynesian that Florida waters are infested with gators. And that it would be in the interest of their children to get the hell out of the Seven Seas Lagoon water. Did they listen? Nope! Kids just kept swimming.

No, but signage saying that there were gators in the lake (not just "no Swimming") may have made the parents get their child out of the water immediately, as opposed to letting him play in the shallow water (if that was the case).

 

[Baltar]

Well, I hope the family recovers as best as possible from this. I can't even imagine what this feels like. I also hope all similar tragedies are prevented in the future.

If we prevent them, we just won't know. One incident like this in the history of WDW. Do we blindly go forward and change nothing? I think there will be improved signage but people will be more aware of the dangers.

It's sad and tragic and I feel for the family.

 

[tribbleorlfl]

Their only "bad parenting decision" was to take their child outside of the bubble that so many here are, astonishingly, proclaim proudly to keep their kids in.

In my eyes- the latter is the "bad parent".

Why? Because locking your kids away and proudly judging other parents who DID NOT MAKE ANY MISTAKE besides not choosing to raise kids in fear and locked away.. is setting a good example of how to be a decent person?

I'm not sure why my original comment was moderated away, but to say parents who are cautious and try to minimize risks to their children are "bad parents" or "not decent" is as ridiculous as saying the parents in this terrible tragedy are negligent or at fault.

 

[englanddg]

As I said in my earlier post, this could have been avoided on all sorts of levels. I still haven't been able to find out whether or not the parents were letting their child wade in the water (when no one's supposed to be wading at the shoreline) or if the child got away from his parents and they ran after him only to find him in the water or what but one thing's for sure: Disney IS AT FAULT FOR SOME OF THIS. They knew what Florida's lakes contain and yet just because you have some signs up saying "No Swimming" does not mean that gators won't come up out of the lakes, looking for food. Just suppose someone was jet skiing and was attacked? This was going to happen eventually and it finally did. I knew not to ever go onto those beaches because I knew the risk. This is just another one of those "pesky things" that the Disney company has always tried to keep quiet about and brush under the rug. They knew the risks and it's very sad what has happened. I have already read some posts elsewhere on the internet where someone has dug some dirt up and found past lawsuits with gators involved. So it has been covered up and yes they knew the risks. I feel sorry for the parents, even though some of this may be their fault too because we don't know why the child was in the water in the first place but Disney is also at fault for not having some kind of fence or barrier around all the lakes. Now they probably will and I also fear this may really hurt Disney World in the future. I can already see a lot of people not wanting to ever go back and that's not going to be good. Disney already has such a bad reputation that this could have some serious repercussions in the future.

The State and their oppressive gator hunting laws also plays a role in this.

To catch nuisance gators in FL isn't as simple as calling Animal Control. You have to go through a licensed gator catcher (not sure the actual term) and that person needs to apply for a permit to hunt a SPECIFIC gator.

Failure to do so can lead to very steep fines and even jail time for those in breach of the law.

68A-25.003 Taking and Disposal of Nuisance Alligators Statewide.

(1) Only persons under contract with the Commission as nuisance alligator trappers, or their agents and assistants, who have been approved by the executive director, or his designee, shall take, possess and kill nuisance alligators as authorized by permit.

(2) Persons may apply for nuisance alligator contracts by completing and submitting a Nuisance Alligator Trapper Application (FWC Form 1002AT (2-06), incorporated by reference herein).

(3) Five dollars ($5) shall be expended by the Commission or its designee on marketing and education for each CITES tag used under the provisions of this rule contingent upon an annual appropriation by the legislature for marketing and education activities. Rulemaking Authority Art. IV, Sec. 9, Fla. Const. Law Implemented Art. IV, Sec. 9, Fla. Const., 379.3012, 379.3751 FS. History–New 8-1-79, Amended 10-23-79, 6-22-80, 6-4-81, 6-21-82, 7-1-85, Formerly 39-25.03, Amended 6-1-86, 12-23-87, 5-5-88, 2-14-89, 4-11-90, 4-14-92, 3-30-95, 4-1-96, Formerly 39-25.003, Amended 4-30-00, 12-16-03, 5-18-06, 8-19-14

Here's the whole law:

http://myfwc.com/media/1531908/alligator-rules-booklet.pdf

So, the point is, it's not as simple as having someone on property at all times to deal with nuisance gators. First, that person must be approved by the state, and second, the person much apply for a contract on said alligator (and also proving the gator is a nuisance) to be approved by the state before they can go after the gator.

Apparently this gator (or another one?) lunged at some Brits staying at Poly a few weeks ago...but, even if that's the case and Disney was notified and aware (before it was reported to the Telegraph, who broke that story), and they contacted a gator catcher, they'd still need to wait on the state approval of the "contract" before the catcher could get to work.

 

[Ignohippo]

A timely piece...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...do-enough-to-warn-its-guests-about-alligators

Some highlights..

[---]
Nick Wiley, executive director of the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission, said the agency works closely with the theme park to remove any “nuisance alligators,” or gators that are at least four feet in length and could pose a threat to people, pets or property.

However, Wiley didn’t know how often his agency actually removes nuisance gators from the park, and he wasn’t able to provide an estimate for how many live in the waters on Disney property. A local sheriff said there had been no recent reports of any nuisance alligators in the area, but questions about their presence in the lake will be part of the ongoing investigation

[---]
“There isn’t a waterway in Florida that doesn’t have an alligator in it,” said Kenneth Krysko, herpetology collections manager at the Florida Museum of Natural History, and an expert on the state’s alligators and crocodiles.
[---]

The hour of the attack, about 9 p.m., is an optimal time for feeding. “Yes, that is the time of day that alligators are coming out and feeding. People are at the surface, splashing around. It’s just so sad because you have a 2-year-old, which is very small. A four-to-six-foot alligator can view that as prey. An animal would have no problem getting such a child.”

[---]

Krysko wondered whether the alligator in Tuesday’s attack, unlike most, had no fear of humans. He suspects that visiting tourists might have been feeding it. “That’s the big problem. It loses its natural fear of humans when that happens. It goes up to humans, sees a child, and that’s the first thing it takes. That’s the sole reason why it’s illegal to feed an alligator in the wild.”

Floridians are extremely wary of alligators, for the most part. The danger is so ingrained in the general public that many small bodies of water lack posted warnings. “Early morning or late evening, you don’t go messing around on a shoreline with vegetation because of alligators,” Krysko said.
[---]

Frank Mazzotti, a professor of wildlife ecology at University of Florida, said the fact that the Disney lagoon was man-made matters little. Alligators pop up constantly in man-made canals, golf course lakes and retention ponds that dot the state. “It’s really impossible to keep them out of any body of water,” Mazzotti said.
[---]

Alan Sykes, a professor at Stanford Law School, said the Walt Disney Co. could be held liable for the incident if there is proof of negligence.
[---]

He said a key question would be whether the resort had prior knowledge of alligators in the water near the hotel and what it had done to mitigate that issue, or at least adequately warn tourists of the potential dangers. “A simple ‘no swimming’ sign might be deemed insufficient,” he said. “If it gets litigated, it’s most likely a case about reasonable warning.”

There are videos and photos on TMZ from guests earlier this week that show gators in the water at the Grand Floridian.

Once again, the issue isn't that there are gators in the water, it's that Disney had insufficient signage warning guests of the danger and that they were throwing a movie party on a beach near a body of water where gators have been sighted.

Either way, this thing will never see a courtroom.

 

[englanddg]

Is Seven Sea Lagoons and the water services being suspended full time or just for the investigation? I do not blame Disney at all for this nor the parents.

I would be surprised if they allow the rental boats out there until this gator is caught...but <shrug>

 

[durangojim]

Bay Lake and its tributaries are man made. So.just as with swimming pools, an increased liability exists.

So are many large lakes in the west and southwest. Does that mean the creators are liable for anyone who drowns?

 

[PhotoDave219]

They mentioned comparing bite marks to find the specific animal in the press conference, didn't they? The stream was breaking up on my end so I may have missed some things.

So there's physical evidence of an attack?

OK that rules that theory out completely.

Not enough sleep....

 

[mousehockey37]

Bay Lake and its tributaries are man made. So.just as with swimming pools, an increased liability exists.

But wildlife is exactly that. Wild. Disney World is built on a drained swamp. It's ultimately on the guest to make sure that they and their families stay safe. It's Disney's property, but c'mon, being in water, after dark, where nocturnal animals are hunting food.... Just go to the pool.

 

[flynnibus]

I see big changes on the horizon to the waterfront after that press conference... The press is out to make sure the public knows that Disney dropped the ball on the signage front. Sad tragedy, grateful the boy was found intact.

I would expect the Movies to be moved off the beaches... you may even see the beaches roped off at night entirely. Those would be changes I would expect to happen right away. Maybe even more notices in literature given to guests about not feeding wildlife and the inherent dangers of them.

 

[Laura]

So wait the gator took the boy, drowned him, and then decided he wasn't a meal? I cannot imagine how this would be considered to be a better outcome for the parents. So my son was drowned for sport?

I know the gator doesn't think that way but the parent will.

My heart goes out to the family involved and thank you to those educating others on the dangers involved. Shame on so many on this post to go anywhere else.

It's a better outcome because they have a body. The thought of my precious baby chewed up in an alligator's stomach is what kept me up all night. I'm so glad to not have to think about that scenario anymore.

 

[thomas998]

Bay Lake and its tributaries are man made. So.just as with swimming pools, an increased liability exists.

Of course before they were created the area was a huge swamp which was probably more attractive to the alligators than it is now... But in the end it really wont matter who if anyone is truly at fault, this will either be settled to eliminate any lengthy PR problems or decided by jury of which I have little faith in the ability of a jury to decide what is just or unjust as it seems all too often that most cases are determined by the ability of a lawyer to manipulate perceptions.... How else could a jury find that McDonalds was responsible for someone being burned by coffee when the customer was dumb enough to order the hot coffee in a drive through, then set said cup between their legs.... Sorry but when the jury found for the clueless customer all hope for a jury doing the right thing went out the window.

 

[Disney Analyst]

The question is, do you update signage... and hope people obey? Or do you make it impossible to not be able to enter the water?

 

[Bacon]

The question is, do you update signage... and hope people obey? Or do you make it impossible to not be able to enter the water?

just update the signs so there hip so more people will follow it!
Zazzle dazzle whooO! don't go in the water kiddos

 

[GhostHost1000]

The question is, do you update signage... and hope people obey? Or do you make it impossible to not be able to enter the water?

Beach areas will be closed. Not sure if fencing or anything else is coming

 

[englanddg]

The question is, do you update signage... and hope people obey? Or do you make it impossible to not be able to enter the water?

I suspect the latter. A short fence around the beaches a few feet from the water line should be enough, and would look attractive enough (heck, the shoreline with it's water weeds and puke green water is ugly as it is), and signage everywhere else.

Or, they may just get rid of the beaches...which would be fine except for places like CBR, Yacht and Beach and Poly, where it's part of the "theme"...

Or, if they REALLY wanted to do it right, they could wall it off and make a shoreline that is really a pool that is elevated above the lagoon with it's own isolated water...but, that would be big buckaroos...

 

[micdisney]

I suspect the latter. A short fence around the beaches a few feet from the water line should be enough, and would look attractive enough (heck, the shoreline with it's water weeds and puke green water is ugly as it is), and signage everywhere else.

Or, they may just get rid of the beaches...which would be fine except for places like CBR, Yacht and Beach and Poly, where it's part of the "theme"...

Or, if they REALLY wanted to do it right, they could wall it off and make a shoreline that is really a pool that is elevated above the lagoon with it's own isolated water...but, that would be big buckaroos...

I agree with small fence and new signs. You don't need to do the whole thing over again

 

[mousehockey37]

The question is, do you update signage... and hope people obey? Or do you make it impossible to not be able to enter the water?

Not to make light of this, but I still fear I'll be taken prisoner by pirates on POTC if the ride breaks down, lol...

To your comment... I'd have something to put on the table/desk in every hotel/DVC room on property as a warning or yes, just update the signage.

 

[LAKid53]

The State and their oppressive gator hunting laws also plays a role in this.

To catch nuisance gators in FL isn't as simple as calling Animal Control. You have to go through a licensed gator catcher (not sure the actual term) and that person needs to apply for a permit to hunt a SPECIFIC gator.

Failure to do so can lead to very steep fines and even jail time for those in breach of the law.

68A-25.003 Taking and Disposal of Nuisance Alligators Statewide.

(1) Only persons under contract with the Commission as nuisance alligator trappers, or their agents and assistants, who have been approved by the executive director, or his designee, shall take, possess and kill nuisance alligators as authorized by permit.

(2) Persons may apply for nuisance alligator contracts by completing and submitting a Nuisance Alligator Trapper Application (FWC Form 1002AT (2-06), incorporated by reference herein).

(3) Five dollars ($5) shall be expended by the Commission or its designee on marketing and education for each CITES tag used under the provisions of this rule contingent upon an annual appropriation by the legislature for marketing and education activities. Rulemaking Authority Art. IV, Sec. 9, Fla. Const. Law Implemented Art. IV, Sec. 9, Fla. Const., 379.3012, 379.3751 FS. History–New 8-1-79, Amended 10-23-79, 6-22-80, 6-4-81, 6-21-82, 7-1-85, Formerly 39-25.03, Amended 6-1-86, 12-23-87, 5-5-88, 2-14-89, 4-11-90, 4-14-92, 3-30-95, 4-1-96, Formerly 39-25.003, Amended 4-30-00, 12-16-03, 5-18-06, 8-19-14

Here's the whole law:

http://myfwc.com/media/1531908/alligator-rules-booklet.pdf

So, the point is, it's not as simple as having someone on property at all times to deal with nuisance gators. First, that person must be approved by the state, and second, the person much apply for a contract on said alligator (and also proving the gator is a nuisance) to be approved by the state before they can go after the gator.

Apparently this gator (or another one?) lunged at some Brits staying at Poly a few weeks ago...but, even if that's the case and Disney was notified and aware (before it was reported to the Telegraph, who broke that story), and they contacted a gator catcher, they'd still need to wait on the state approval of the "contract" before the catcher could get to work.

That's because the US Fish & Wildlife Service still monitors all crocodilian species to insure that those still listed as endangered or threatened in the ESA aren't hunted and passed off as the non-listed American Alligator.

 

[Ignohippo]

The question is, do you update signage... and hope people obey? Or do you make it impossible to not be able to enter the water?

Sadly, given the horrible publicity this had garnered (not to mention this family could get 8-9 figures), they will probably overreact and close all beaches off from the water.

You'd hope, though, that proper signage would alleviate anything like this from happening again.