From the OS: Gator drags child into Seven Seas Lagoon

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hopemax

hopemax

Well-Known Member
flynnibus said:
Not a freak accident - There is bad behavior here.. but probably more from being naive about the topic.

Playing at the water's edge **at night** in southern waterway is not smart. Doing it with a toddler that is 'right sized' for predators is even worse. It's bad judgement. It's risky behavior that could have been avoided with some awareness. It's just the kind of behavior that isn't going to get your burned that often.. but when it does, it can be significant.

I doubt the victims really even understood the the risk, so I don't 'blame' them. It's not some extreme risk behavior or taunting fate.. it's just the kind of stuff if you had any background with living with that kind of wildlife you'd know not to do.

It's a tragic outcome.. but just one of the vast possibilities that can happen as we live in the wild open world we do. You balance risks every day you wake up and get out of bed.
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This is what I'm struggling with the right words. I think this is one of those personality test things, the difference between the T's and the F's. My thought process is that after tragedy, you go over the "what could have been differently to avoid the outcome," "what needs to be done now to limit another occurrence." And the first major area is human behavior. That doesn't mean someone was negligent, or needs to be blamed, but changing human behavior can result in a different outcome.

So you go over the list of what should have been done differently, and then assess if those things are reasonable and implement them (like additional signage) or not (removing all gators). The child would have been safer, for example, if the thought process was "take a bored child to a play area," not "let child play by the water." So how does Disney communicate that (modify guest behavior) or account for that ( attempt to take the risk out of guests hands) But guests hold a responsibility in their own safety too. I don't know what all the local danger in Ohio or Vermont is, but I have enough experience to know that there probably is "something," and I would be served to do a little research if I'm going to those areas. We did it for our Hawaii trip, and found out there was an outbreak of Dengue Fever, so we took additional precautions even though they thought it was resolved (it was). I don't know where I learned that, maybe its the personality types again.

If we say this is a freak accident, then it would be unnecessary for Disney or guests to do anything different, and I don't think people really think that. So there's that missing word, that's not blame, not negligence but could have affected the outcome. This was a predictable outcome for the factors given, although the frequency is extremely small. Freak, IMHO are the things no reasonable person would predict. The example I just read was, being killed in a plane crash is an accident although rare, being killed in a plane crash while at a car dealership is a freak accident (true story). There are things to be learned from this tragedy.

And I hope writing all of this, doesn't give anyone the impression that I don't have anything but the deepest sympathy and extreme levels of empathy for the family, the people who were witnesses, and the search & recovery people that are dealing with the aftermath.
 
flynnibus

flynnibus

Premium Member
Incomudro said:
I'm not even saying to do it.
But if it were done, it would be done where the activities of people meet the shoreline.
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So you are arguing something that is like only putting up one wall out of four on a house... and arguing what its effectiveness would be.

It's a blatantly stupid idea.. and probably would even open Disney up for MORE liability. Especially when you say 'we got rid of alligator risks' by putting up walls, but then a lawyer could prove areas where they knew risks WERE but chose not to address them.
 
21stamps

21stamps

Well-Known Member
flynnibus said:
They were hanging out on the edge of inland water AT NIGHT in central florida with a toddler - that is walking through the bad neighborhood.

The analogy you propose of the 'nice neighborhood' just solidifies your dillassulion of where they were or what WDW is in this regard.

This wasn't the kiddie pool in the courtyard... THEN i'd buy into your analogy. This was the edge of open, inland water AT NIGHT in a large open rural area.

Seriously, in freaking SUBDIVISIONS with development all around them, people know this is risky behavior. WDW is not some 'the laws of nature do not apply here bubble'.
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I'm always a huge fan of knowing what you'rw talking about before you speak to someone making several assumptions.

You must not be a fan of that though. Clearly you missed my posts about being a SoFla resident and the photos of my son sitting at the edge of Seven Seas Lagoon, at dusk, a few months ago. Nor did you see my posts about the depth of the lagoon 1 foot in.

I don't fault you for not reading thru the thread, I do fault you for making assumptions.

So yes, sometimes I find fault with people too. But not any fault towards the parents in this heartbreaking scenario.
 
PhotoDave219

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
flynnibus said:
So you are arguing something that is like only putting up one wall out of four on a house... and arguing what its effectiveness would be.

It's a blatantly stupid idea.. and probably would even open Disney up for MORE liability. Especially when you say 'we got rid of alligator risks' by putting up walls, but then a lawyer could prove areas where they knew risks WERE but chose not to address them.
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I think the guests had no idea what could be out there..... So I won't fault them. They lost their kid.

I know youre not blaming them, and I agree the suggestion of a wall is ludacrist.
 
MOXOMUMD

MOXOMUMD

Well-Known Member
HM Spectre said:
So sad but the best possible outcome that could be hoped for at this point. Get the gator out of the water and the boy's body back to his family. Prayers to them.
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They keep showing a covered boat that has been towed out of the water. It must contain the remains. :(
 
S

SoupBone

Well-Known Member
For the poor family, this just opens their wounds more, but will at least allow them to begin truly grieving. Before, even though the chances were miniscule, there was always the what if. My thoughts are with them and will be for a while.
 
TikiTorch

TikiTorch

Active Member
I think it certainly makes sense to add signage that specifically warns against alligators. Anything more (walls, etc) is simply not reasonable. There are plenty of other resorts, golf courses, businesses and neighborhoods in Florida where close proximity to bodies of water is considered an amenity. This same event could just as easily have happened at those locations.
 
gmajew

gmajew

Well-Known Member
SoupBone said:
For the poor family, this just opens their wounds more, but will at least allow them to begin truly grieving. Before, even though the chances were miniscule, there was always the what if. My thoughts are with them and will be for a while.
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Yeah but it would have been so much worse for them if they could not ever find the child.... I hope the poor family can find any type of strength to move on from this... A horrible accident... and they should not blame themselves for a second..... just will be impossible for them to do that..
 
21stamps

21stamps

Well-Known Member
flynnibus said:
And what does any of that prove or add to the topic? That you 'survived' such behavior? Ok... so?

It doesn't change the risk factors involved.
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Yes, luckily I did survive such horrible parental behavior of taking my son to Walt Disney World, staying at the Polynesian, and letting him play near the water. Really, I should be in jail for it.

Because myself and millions of other people know that alligators exist in Florida, yet we don't live in fear of them.
The same way we don't all live in fear of something happening to us when we walk out our front door- because it can.

Make no mistake - your children are no more safe than this child was. And if you say they are- you're telling a lie to everyone here, but worst of all you'd be lying to yourself.
 
flynnibus

flynnibus

Premium Member
hopemax said:
This is what I'm struggling with the right words. I think this is one of those personality test things, the difference between the T's and the F's. My thought process is that after tragedy, you go over the "what could have been differently to avoid the outcome," "what needs to be done now to limit another occurrence." And the first major area is human behavior. That doesn't mean someone was negligent, or needs to be blamed, but changing human behavior can result in a different outcome.
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It's a tragedy - one that normally SHOULDN'T happen.. but can. But there are risk factors involved here and behavior that while not lethal 99.999% of the time, are contributors. Just because the behavior doesn't result in negative consequences all the time.. its still a contributing factor.

You can probably drive without your seltbelt your entire life and probably never get hurt doing so - it doesn't negate the risk of the behavior. Or swimming in a lightning storm.. etc. It's really just more about probabilities and what kind of consequences are out there. We balance these risks and behaviors all the time. We call them 'judgement calls' :) Concious or not.

hopemax said:
Freak, IMHO are the things no reasonable person would predict. The example I just read was, being killed in a plane crash is an accident although rare, being killed in a plane crash while at a car dealership is a freak accident (true story)
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Agreed.

For those reading and don't want to take my word for it on these factors and behaviors.. here's an article that speaks to these factors a bit..

http://wnep.com/2016/06/15/disney-alligator-attack-may-have-been-a-perfect-storm/

It's a tragedy and improbable given most scenarios.. but is not something completely out of the blue. Sadly it's a story that has fatal consequences no one can reverse :(
 
zakattack99

zakattack99

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Can we get someone who knows the resort on CNN. I think the "reporter" made 5 false statements in 2 mins. Regardless this heartbreaking. Prayers for the family involved.
 
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