From the OS: Gator drags child into Seven Seas Lagoon

[s8film40]

Stroll along the beach during the day (like your photo) is not the same thing as strollling along the water or using a sail boat AT NIGHT. That's my point, don't gloss over the important distinctions.

The photo also doesn't show life preservers... are we to assume from those promotional images that they aren't needed when playing on the sailboat? Or how about sailing at night... that cool too from what you see in your photo?

Or maybe we should infer we can bring our own sail boat and park it on the beach!

Nothing about this incident really plays to what that image shows or conveys what measures someone takes in an activity. But instead you then want to take leaps from that to expand upon those to mean 'well its fine for night time too' -- this is your leap that my analogy was exposing. The daytime photo does not infer or project that there are no different dangers involved when you do something like.. make it nighttime.

It's ridiculous to point at these (dated) images and try to infer what is allowed or not from them. Besides, we all know Disney's quagmire about the beachfront and its identity has been a problem for AGES. They are part of the design, yet Disney has tried to relegate them down to be visual features only for a long time now. Disney's bipolar approach to resort recreation and resorts vs simple hotels has created this 'hung in the middle state' of the resorts for almost two decades.

I would expect a slow migration away from the beach concepts as the properties evolve... Disney has been half-pregnant on this topic for a long time... certainly this kind of incident will be impetuous to get over the hump. Much like the fencing topic around the existing pools was a similar topic that languished, yet found new life after incidents.

No body walks the grounds of the Poly or GF, sees wildlife, and says 'OMG, I can't believe that bird is actually here.. this is all an artificial environment Disney fully controls!'.. because we all have the common sense to recognize the managed and manicured grounds are all wide open and surrounded by open spaces. Disney manages pests, they don't create a Biosphere.

To be fair we're not really talking about night time. This happened around sunset. It's a popular time to take a stroll along a beach. I'm sorry photos do not equal rules. I'm not saying a photo implies it's okay but rather a photo vaguely illustrates the amenities they are choosing to advertise their property with. I personally do a lot of marketing photography for homes and resorts. I choose the time of day for photographing the property based on how I and my clients want the photo to look, I've never shot photos based on rules of the resorts. If the beach is an amenity the client wants to advertise they will ask me to photograph it, if the beach is not accessible to the public this will not be what they want me to focus on. It's a marketing decision plain and simple.

 

[flynnibus]

Then, how about an image of movie might? Full of little kids.
Would that work for you?
Do you really mean to tell me that guests are supposed to know better than to go down to the waters edge?

That is a much better argument and I fully admit when the connections to movie night were made, its more disturbing. I have no problem with good arguments, just bad ones

Do you really mean to tell me that guests are supposed to know better than to go down to the waters edge?

To a degree - yes. There is some self-responsibility when it comes to dealing with the outdoors, water, and wildlife. A 2yr old isn't going to understand the risks, but that's what parents are for and why we should strive to gain knowledge through our lifetimes. To advance ourselves and avoid dangers.

I'm not disagreeing that Disney could do more to warn people about the risks of being outside in florida... but to what degree I think is up for discussion. And I don't subscribe at all to the postulation that since it's Disney... we should assume total safety and scrubbing of all things... that coddling or we should sue for change mentality needs to stop.

 

[21stamps]

No one with any degree of common sense here has said that they should be able to prevent that.

What they can do, and what they've already begun doing with the signs they've begun to put up on their beaches, is take steps to ensure that guests on their property have no reason or excuse not to be aware of the risks posed by natural bodies of water and consequently minimise the risk of this ever happening again.

If guests choose to ignore those steps and take those risks regardless then responsibility for any harm that might befall them lies with themselves.

I agree with you on the common sense part. Sadly though plenty of people are suggesting it.

Well I think if this thread proves anything it's that not everyone associates swimming with walking along the beach. The argument would then be did they break the rules and/or were these rules explained adequately. Looking at the opinions on this thread it's safe to say that that is at the very least in question.

I don't think they broke the rules. I once again..think it was a totally freak event, and that noone should reasonably think that it will happen again.

Then, how about an image of movie might? Full of little kids.
Would that work for you?
Do you really mean to tell me that guests are supposed to know better than to go down to the waters edge?
You continually state what you know, with little consideration about what the average guest knows. Some of the guests come from the other side of the Atlantic.
They are not doing wildlife prep homework when booking their Disney hotel as though they are booking an airboat ride through the everglades.

I don't want the marshmallows or the movies cancelled..or the water closed off (meaning a wall or fence) from guests!! Signs are enough. Alligators in a body water do not mean that there is an imminent attack ahead.

From everything I've read there is already an entire full time department dedicated to removing alligator when deemed a "nuisance", or are very large. That is enough comfort for me.

 

[G00fyDad]

Tragic blameless incident. That's all it is.

I 100% agree.

I know there are a ton of pages. But you may want to go back and read a few of them. Not being snarky.. But this convo has been heavily about the signage, if the parents broke rules by allowing their child in the water, etc. The boy was not swimming, but he was in the water. Regardless it could have happened even if he was at the edge playing in the sand.

As for signage:

There are these at Disney....

Then there are these other places in Florida.

 

[PhotoDave219]

That is a much better argument and I fully admit when the connections to movie night were made, its more disturbing. I have no problem with good arguments, just bad ones



To a degree - yes. There is some self-responsibility when it comes to dealing with the outdoors, water, and wildlife. A 2yr old isn't going to understand the risks, but that's what parents are for and why we should strive to gain knowledge through our lifetimes. To advance ourselves and avoid dangers.

I'm not disagreeing that Disney could do more to warn people about the risks of being outside in florida... but to what degree I think is up for discussion. And I don't subscribe at all to the postulation that since it's Disney... we should assume total safety and scrubbing of all things... that coddling or we should sue for change mentality needs to stop.

I don't foresee it happening ..... But step one in not coddling people would be trespassing people for feeding the alligators and turning them over to FWC for charges.

 

[asianway]

I agree with you on the common sense part. Sadly though plenty of people are suggesting it.

I don't think they broke the rules. I once again..think it was a totally freak event, and that noone should reasonably think that it will happen again.

I don't want the marshmallows or the movies cancelled..or the water closed off from guests!! Signs are enough. Alligators in a body water do not mean that there is an imminent attack ahead.

From everything I've read there is already an entire full time department dedicated to removing alligator when deemed a "nuisance", or are very large. That is enough comfort for me.

Been saving this post...

It really is about time they stop the marshmallow roasts. Flaming sticks, open fires, noxious fumes...I see someone getting a serious injury at one of those long before the next gator attack. And yes, I am serious.

 

[21stamps]

Been saving this post...

It really is about time they stop the marshmallow roasts. Flaming sticks, open fires, noxious fumes...I see someone getting a serious injury at one of those long before the next gator attack. And yes, I am serious.

Really, why? I just made my ADRs 2 weeks ago, I actually plan them around the marshmallows for at least one night. I don't see anything dangerous about it. It's not a wildfire, it's contained in a large, high, fire pit. Rules and games are discussed/played beforehand.

 

[flynnibus]

To be fair we're not really talking about night time. This happened around sunset

No, it happened more than 30mins AFTER sunset. Sunset being the time the sun passes below the horizon. I encourage you to go outside 30mins after the sun disappears tonight and see just how dark it is. This is not twlight.. this is not dusk.

It's a popular time to take a stroll along a beach

Doesn't mean it is not without risks and limits people should take into account. Running along the road is popular too.. people also realize doing so at night is significantly different than doing so during the afternoon... and they are conscious of their choices.

There is nothing from this incident that infers people must STAY AWAY FROM THE WATER at all times. So advertising a beach setting like you've pointed out is not contradictory at all.

I'm not saying a photo implies it's okay but rather a photo vaguely illustrates the amenities they are choosing to advertise their property with. I personally do a lot of marketing photography for homes and resorts. I choose the time of day for photographing the property based on how I and my clients want the photo to look, I've never shot photos based on rules of the resorts. If the beach is an amenity the client wants to advertise they will ask me to photograph it, if the beach is not accessible to the public this will not be what they want me to focus on. It's a marketing decision plain and simple.

And how old is that picture? Did you even find it from TWDC marketing... or 3rd party people still using ancient content?

 

[s8film40]

Been saving this post...

It really is about time they stop the marshmallow roasts. Flaming sticks, open fires, noxious fumes...I see someone getting a serious injury at one of those long before the next gator attack. And yes, I am serious.

I actually talked with a CM who had serious burns all over her face from this. When the marshmallow caught fire as they often do the kid started waving it to put it out, the marshmallow flew off landed on her face. With the marshmallow being a big glop of sticky flaming goo it couldn't be quickly removed and resulted in some pretty bad burns.

 

[flynnibus]

Been saving this post...

It really is about time they stop the marshmallow roasts. Flaming sticks, open fires, noxious fumes...I see someone getting a serious injury at one of those long before the next gator attack. And yes, I am serious.

I wish I had the memories solid.. but this entire thing had me thinking of some of the recreation we did as kids back in the day.

I remember doing a canoe trip at dusk/evening through what was in-land water.. not out in bay lake.. that ended with a campfire and marshmellow type event. I mean, this is back in 1980 or so... but it had me thinking we would go through wetlands at dark back then.

We didn't freak out knowing that there were crazy things like TICKS in the woods, snakes in the grass, and predators in the water. We accept there are mitigations and reasonable levels of risk as long as we follow some decent standards of behavior.

 

[s8film40]

No, it happened more than 30mins AFTER sunset. Sunset being the time the sun passes below the horizon. I encourage you to go outside 30mins after the sun disappears tonight and see just how dark it is. This is not twlight.. this is not dusk.

As I said I do a lot of resort and property photography so I'm very well aware of sunset timing. When a client asks me for sunset/twilight photos I look up sunset time 15 minutes after sunset is when I begin photographing, I typically have about 15 minutes to get my shots. Actual sunset is too bright even though the sun is just below the horizon.

 

[flynnibus]

I actually talked with a CM who had serious burns all over her face from this. When the marshmallow caught fire as they often do the kid started waving it to put it out, the marshmallow flew off landed on her face. With the marshmallow being a big glop of sticky flaming goo it couldn't be quickly removed and resulted in some pretty bad burns.

Clearly we need to remove all marshmellows from shelves and ban putting them on sticks. We can't possibly have a POTENTIAL outcome like this come to pass...

 

[FrankLapidus]

Then, how about an image of movie might? Full of little kids.
Would that work for you?
Do you really mean to tell me that guests are supposed to know better than to go down to the waters edge?
You continually state what you know, with little consideration about what the average guest knows. Some of the guests come from the other side of the Atlantic.
They are not doing wildlife prep homework when booking their Disney hotel as though they are booking an airboat ride through the everglades.

Being in the UK and seeing the reaction here to what has happened, I agree with this.

Not that I disagree with much of what @flynnibus has said on this subject, I agree with the vast majority of it, but some of the coverage here has been awful, bordering on dangerous. I've posted here already that there was one British reporter who said live on camera that guests are allowed, even encouraged, to go into Seven Seas Lagoon. I emailed the programme about that but didn't get a response back on my complaint.

I've lost count of the comments I've seen or heard, either on a comments section of a British news story or said to me directly by someone who knows I'm a regular visitor to Florida and WDW, that ask why an alligator was allowed to be in a Disney lake: How does that happen? Doesn't Disney stop alligators getting into their lakes and lagoons? Why can't they? Why don't they? Surely I'll be okay if I just paddle along the shoreline rather than swim?

With some it comes down to an obvious and basic lack of awareness, others are worryingly devoid of common sense. It adds up to a pretty dangerous situation where many have traveled or are traveling to WDW are clearly completely oblivious to the dangers of the local climate and environment.

 

[s8film40]

Clearly we need to remove all marshmellows from shelves and ban putting them on sticks. We can't possibly have a POTENTIAL outcome like this come to pass...

Every marshmallow roast I've been to they tell the kids if/when their marshmallow catches fire not to shake it. I think that's enough, it's good when people are at least given the opportunity to be made aware of potential dangers.

 

[sedati]

As for the semantics of signage, I feel I can save many of your lives if you happen to come up where I live sometime during the winter.
You may come upon a beautiful frozen pond glistening on a cold New England day. If you're lucky, you may see a sign saying:
"NO SKATING"
What might this mean? This means stay off the ice. This isn't just about performing pirouettes and Olympic routines. Even if you don't have skates. Even if you only mean to tip toe about on the ice. Even if it's just a small child who doesn't weigh a third of an adult. Don't go on the ice. And by the way, if you don't see a sign at all- it's absolutely in your best interest not to risk it.

 

[21stamps]

As I said I do a lot of resort and property photography so I'm very well aware of sunset timing. When a client asks me for sunset/twilight photos I look up sunset time 15 minutes after sunset is when I begin photographing, I typically have about 15 minutes to get my shots. Actual sunset is too bright even though the sun is just below the horizon.

Sunset is at 8:25pm currently. This happened between 9 and 9:30. If it was at 9 then it wasn't very dark, would be "dusk". 9:30 would be dark.

I actually talked with a CM who had serious burns all over her face from this. When the marshmallow caught fire as they often do the kid started waving it to put it out, the marshmallow flew off landed on her face. With the marshmallow being a big glop of sticky flaming goo it couldn't be quickly removed and resulted in some pretty bad burns.

And this thread has OFFICIALLY GONE OFF OF THE DEEP END.

Please All of you people who are AFRAID of every little thing. PLEASE do not ruin the world for the rest of us!!!!!!!!!

 

[flynnibus]

As I said I do a lot of resort and property photography so I'm very well aware of sunset timing. When a client asks me for sunset/twilight photos I look up sunset time 15 minutes after sunset is when I begin photographing, I typically have about 15 minutes to get my shots. Actual sunset is too bright even though the sun is just below the horizon.

And just how quickly is the light changing at that point? As you know... just minutes makes all the difference. The attack was at approximately 9:00-9:05 sunset on the 14th was 8:24 - so 36-41 minutes after sunset.

And to the earlier post again, how old is that picture? Did you even find it from TWDC marketing... or 3rd party people still using ancient content?

 

[flynnibus]

I don't foresee it happening ..... But step one in not coddling people would be trespassing people for feeding the alligators and turning them over to FWC for charges.

Never going to happen.. Disney will tell them to stop, they will go 'oh, I didn't realize...' and Disney will give them at best a Stern lecture and send them away from the location. Guests at a location like the Bungalows, if they kept doing it, I could see Disney kicking them out of their room or moving them.

But next time Disney revamps the grounds of a resort... you could see them changing the designs of the open spaces.

 

[flynnibus]

Every marshmallow roast I've been to they tell the kids if/when their marshmallow catches fire not to shake it. I think that's enough, it's good when people are at least given the opportunity to be made aware of potential dangers.

And what about people that roast marshmellows on their own? Should there be signs in the grocery store aisles telling them the dangers of melting sugar or working with fire?

 

[s8film40]

And just how quickly is the light changing at that point? As you know... just minutes makes all the difference. The attack was at approximately 9:00-9:05 sunset on the 14th was 8:24 - so 36-41 minutes after sunset.

And to the earlier post again, how old is that picture? Did you even find it from TWDC marketing... or 3rd party people still using ancient content?

For photography purposes I'm done about a half hour after sunset. I wouldn't exactly call it dark out though at that point, If I were going to have an evening stroll along the beach I would find sunset to about an hour past it to be acceptable.