News FPs cancelled when Hotel room cancelled

[Trackmaster]

I think this point misses that the FPs were secured not within the 30 day window, but secured with the perk of the 60 day window. Hence, the FP secured with the room is a more valuable asset than any FP secured in the 30 day window. So cancelling the FPs is not the same as 'well just get another...' - but it would also act as a deterrent to just using throwaways that are no longer free, but still 'affordable'. A stronger one would be to blacklist profiles that show repeated behaviors.

Problem is no-shows are complicated with lots of reasons why they can happen that are legit. Disney would be better off to monitor and profile activity that looks like abuse rather than apply unilateral moves like this.

Well, think of it as a deterrent to cancelling as well as a way to close a loophole as well. I'm sure that Disney isn't thrilled about guests cancelling in the first place.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

Admittedly I have not used it enough that I actually have had issues with it crashing or not working.

I think ultimately there are two camps - people for whom planning causes them stress (especially within context of a vacation) and people for whom planning brings them joy.

That’s pretty much the clinch of who really likes the system and who doesn’t.

The operational / transaction things you cite still exist with Maxpass and their gates. Imposing a gate deeper into the queue would be horrible with people having to head up stream out of the queue when they don’t have a valid FP. What there really needs to be is more tap points that merge into the queue. You also forget about lines spilling out of Fastpass pickup areas. I’ve seen 20 minute waits to get RSR fastpass, a line wrapping around the American waterfront to get TSMM in Tokyo, or 20-30 minutes for pickup FP from kiosks in Shanghai before their new system. That’s ultimately the thing that improved with the electronic system pickup and distribution.



I think MyMagic+ as a whole was a boondoggle... but the infrastructure in Florida was sorely needed and the platform they’ve built has good bones (but from what I am hearing needs tinkering)

I'm middle of the road - I love planning our trips, but the FP and dining components always stress me out because then I have to shuffle days around with regards to which parks we need to be in on which days for what and cross reference that to crowd calendars and available hours (we usually travel in October, and hours the parks are open almost always change while I'm planning). Then there's F&W to consider as well - one year I didn't pay close enough attention and scheduled an Epcot night when they were filming The Chew and we ended up going back to our room way earlier than was originally intended because the other three parks were closing so early.

I also happen to be pretty tech-savvy, and find the Disney websites/systems to be lacking on many fronts. It seems they place more value on how things look rather than how they operate or any user-friendliness. All of the Disney websites are slow-to-load (even on a brand new computer), and I can't remember ever booking a trip since they implemented MyMagic+ without getting the "Stitch ate the page" error at the most inopportune moment. Even something as simple as making or changing a FP requires a ridiculous amount of steps to complete. Just because something looks pretty, doesn't mean it works well. Appearance should never trump functionality, and that seems to have been the case with the last major website update. Here's something that drives me bonkers...the restaurant menus. Having separate pages for each meal (breakfast/lunch/dinner) makes choosing a restaurant way more difficult and time consuming than it needs to be. My choices are either writing down restaurant/menu/meal selections on paper so that I can choose after browsing, or having multiple tabs open in my browser to compare offerings that differ by meal...which slows things down even more. And why can't there be a way to start making a reservation from a menu page? (There's really no reason other than they didn't want the link there.) Point being, the websites could be WAY more user-friendly and efficient if they really wanted them to be.

I will admit, there was a big chunk of time between our last visit with paper fastpasses and our first visit with the new system in place...did the difficulty in getting fastpasses for the most popular rides coincide with the introduction of the new system? (I seem to remember wanting to get our must-dos out of the way early with the paper fastpasses, but not that we'd have had difficulty getting them if we didn't.) Also, what determines how many fastpasses per attraction are released for any given day and is there any leeway (meaning, could they issue more)?

 

[ImperfectPixie]

uninformed guests are at a significant disadvantage

Who honestly cares though? I dont feel sorry for people who dont understand how the system works, its really not that complicated. People are just too lazy to learn

I've heard on more than one occasion from a friend who is a TA, clients refusing to follow advice (including heavy warnings about missing desired rides/dining) in regards to FP and dining reservations and then were angry because she couldn't get "day of" CRT reservations for them. (Even one family who thought they'd take a last-minute trip to the World for Thanksgiving day and expecting to be able to enjoy a sit-down turkey dinner at one of the most popular restaurants.)

 

[nickys]

Just wanted to say there are now reports of FPs actually being cancelled when a reservation is cancelled and no new reservation is made.

So far, the reports only cover those still within their 30-60 day window when they cancel. So no confirmation yet about the FPs booked with the 60 day window and a reservation being cancelled after the 30 day window is open.

And the early opening window is now definitely fixed.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

I absolutely agree with you. There are people who legitimately believe that Disney shouldn't operate like a business offering various tiers of service to its patrons of different income levels. I think that's completely absurd that people think Disney SHOULDN'T operate that way.

I have no issues with Disney operating at a profit, but when guests who aren't wealthy are unable to experience attractions etc. that are included with general admission because they can't afford up-charge passes, that isn't right.

 

[Trackmaster]

I have no issues with Disney operating at a profit, but when guests who aren't wealthy are unable to experience attractions etc. that are included with general admission because they can't afford up-charge passes, that isn't right.

I mean if you spend a whole week at Disney, you can easily ride everything that you want at least once. You may just have to wait in line a long time. And you don't have be a millionaire to stay in an on-site hotel to get the 60 day window. Its completely understandable that the last thing that Disney wants is for you to stay at an off-site hotel. The hotels might be overpriced, but the value ones aren't so expensive that you have to be a 1%er.

What Disney can't help you with is if you want 5 laps a day on the most popular attractions during peak times without being willing to pay for a ticketed event. Which is more than reasonable. But if you go and spend your money, you'll be guaranteed to get on everything that you want through the FP+'s you get and the stand-bys.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

I mean if you spend a whole week at Disney, you can easily ride everything that you want at least once. You may just have to wait in line a long time. And you don't have be a millionaire to stay in an on-site hotel to get the 60 day window. Its completely understandable that the last thing that Disney wants is for you to stay at an off-site hotel. The hotels might be overpriced, but the value ones aren't so expensive that you have to be a 1%er.

What Disney can't help you with is if you want 5 laps a day on the most popular attractions during peak times without being willing to pay for a ticketed event. Which is more than reasonable. But if you go and spend your money, you'll be guaranteed to get on everything that you want through the FP+'s you get and the stand-bys.

I realize all that...but with how crowded the parks are, and Disney not slowing down on marketing or cramming more people in...I really worry that it will get to that point. I considered us extremely lucky to get a FEA FP in a time-slot at least close to what we wanted on our October 2016 trip. We wouldn't have gotten it at all if I hadn't spent time multiple times throughout the morning checking availability. (Funny thing...we had FPs for the ride, but still ended up waiting more than 45 minutes. I could be mistaken, but it seemed like they weren't loading the boats with nearly as many people as they can hold.)

Generally, we stay at the values because our kids like them and we really don't stay in our room for anything other than sleeping/showering (with the exception of a "splurge" trip once in a while). We aren't usually repeat riders in a single day, with a few exceptions (GMR was a biggie, Grand Fiesta as well, and I'm sure the Mickey/Minnie Railway will be a favorite).

Sure, we can wait for a long time in a Stand-by line, but how many kids do you know can wait 2+ hours in line without needing to pee or getting hungry/angry/tired? Heck, I don't know many adults that can do that (and I think the violence another poster mentioned is evidence of this). I also was taken aback on our last trip by a FP line that was literally almost walk-on, but stand-by had more than an hour wait (I don't remember which attraction). Is there a "rule" for loading attractions with FP vs. stand-by riders? Even with a FP I would consider a 15-20 minute wait acceptable - especially if it meant shorter overall stand-by wait times for everyone. I guess my point is that no one should have to choose between paying an up-charge or spending 2+ hours standing in line for a single attraction, and I'd be curious to see how long the average guest (by average, I mean visits maybe once or twice in their life to bring their kids) wastes waiting in lines over a week-long trip. I'd also be curious to see how much time a repeat, knowledgeable visitor spends with their face in their phone monkeying with FPs so they can avoid the huge waits. Further, the "challenges" another poster mentioned are ridiculous and just illustrates the selfishness that has become pervasive in our society.

As an aside...I have 2 sons, both of whom have autism. In the past we've not needed to get the DAS pass because they are generally very good in line and we have strategies that help us all pass the time. However, with the way things are going, we will probably need to get one in the future because - and trust me on this - no one wants to listen to my youngest ask in a very loud voice if its our turn every 1.5 seconds for an hour or more, or worst-case-scenario have a melt-down.

 

[BigThunderMatt]

I have no issues with Disney operating at a profit, but when guests who aren't wealthy are unable to experience attractions etc. that are included with general admission because they can't afford up-charge passes, that isn't right.

At the end of the day, Disney is and always has been a luxury product. It's never been intended to be something that is a literal rite of passage for every family in the world. It is always going to be priced out of reach for somebody, and there are always going to be people that are willing to pay more for additional privileges. The problem now is that far too many people HAVE been seeing it as a rite of passage, one they are willing to go into debt for sometimes. And that's never how it should be viewed. It should always be viewed from the perspective that if you can't afford the full experience, you probably can't really afford to go.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

At the end of the day, Disney is and always has been a luxury product. It's never been intended to be something that is a literal rite of passage for every family in the world. It is always going to be priced out of reach for somebody, and there are always going to be people that are willing to pay more for additional privileges. The problem now is that far too many people HAVE been seeing it as a rite of passage, one they are willing to go into debt for sometimes. And that's never how it should be viewed. It should always be viewed from the perspective that if you can't afford the full experience, you probably can't really afford to go.

That's my point though. General admission is supposed to include the "full experience", with up-charge events being "extras". When waits become such that the "full experience" is no longer "full" unless you fork over more cash or spend large amounts of your time in lines, then something is drastically amiss. I'm not complaining about up-charge events, or VIP Tours, or anything of that nature...if we want to buy extras, we do. However, we shouldn't feel forced to because we can't experience everything included with general admission otherwise, and it really feels like this is the direction in which Disney is headed.

 

[scottieRoss]

That's my point though. General admission is supposed to include the "full experience", with up-charge events being "extras". When waits become such that the "full experience" is no longer "full" unless you fork over more cash or spend large amounts of your time in lines, then something is drastically amiss. I'm not complaining about up-charge events, or VIP Tours, or anything of that nature...if we want to buy extras, we do. However, we shouldn't feel forced to because we can't experience everything included with general admission otherwise, and it really feels like this is the direction in which Disney is headed.

I have to say that expectation is far from realistic. When both DL and WDW opened, you paid a general admission fee and then paid for the rides. E tickets costing about 5 times an A ticket.
When you go to Six Flags or a Cedar Point park, there are multiple upcharge attractions. Even Universal does not provide Express Pass except to the top 3 resorts. No free line passes. Expect to wait in line for HOURS

 

[bUU]

At the end of the day, Disney is and always has been a luxury product. It's never been intended to be something that is a literal rite of passage for every family in the world. It is always going to be priced out of reach for somebody, and there are always going to be people that are willing to pay more for additional privileges. The problem now is that far too many people HAVE been seeing it as a rite of passage, one they are willing to go into debt for sometimes. And that's never how it should be viewed. It should always be viewed from the perspective that if you can't afford the full experience, you probably can't really afford to go.

Yes, that's precisely right. It is easy to romanticize Disney but that just leads to unnecessary disappointment.

I have to say that expectation is far from realistic. When both DL and WDW opened, you paid a general admission fee and then paid for the rides. E tickets costing about 5 times an A ticket. When you go to Six Flags or a Cedar Point park, there are multiple upcharge attractions. Even Universal does not provide Express Pass except to the top 3 resorts. No free line passes. Expect to wait in line for HOURS

There are occasional exceptions: Right now, there's practically no way to ride Flight of Passage during school holidays without a three- or four-plus hour wait in queue (since FP+ isn't available at 30 days). However, exclusion from one attraction is not a rationalization for the criticism being made. It is an anomaly, and as soon as RotR opens that exclusion will evaporate just like similar exclusions have evaporated in the past. At any one time maybe there will be one or two attractions out of hundreds that are practically excluded. It is myopic to characterize that in the manner it is being characterized.

Just like the "rite of passage" misconception that BigThunderMatt discussed, I think the criticisms also stem from a more generalized attraction bias where people perceive the Disney experience out of proportion to the reality, i.e., perceiving FoP (for example) as some significant percentage of the whole instead of the reality, that it is just one attraction out of hundreds.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

I have to say that expectation is far from realistic. When both DL and WDW opened, you paid a general admission fee and then paid for the rides. E tickets costing about 5 times an A ticket.
When you go to Six Flags or a Cedar Point park, there are multiple upcharge attractions. Even Universal does not provide Express Pass except to the top 3 resorts. No free line passes. Expect to wait in line for HOURS

Actually, it isn't unrealistic. Disney chose their pricing structure to be general admission with all attractions included. They already offer up-charge fast passes for those at Club Level, similarly to Universal's Deluxe resort fast passes. The problem stems from Disney failing to replace/repair defunct attractions and instead just shuttering them, and the attitude from a large number of Disney guests that spending as many as 3-4 hours in line for a single attraction is acceptable. Like it or not, Disney is NOT Universal, Cedar Point, or Six Flags. They spent decades conditioning us to expect better...why should we accept this from them now?

 

[scottieRoss]

Actually, it isn't unrealistic. Disney chose their pricing structure to be general admission with all attractions included. They already offer up-charge fast passes for those at Club Level, similarly to Universal's Deluxe resort fast passes. The problem stems from Disney failing to replace/repair defunct attractions and instead just shuttering them, and the attitude from a large number of Disney guests that spending as many as 3-4 hours in line for a single attraction is acceptable. Like it or not, Disney is NOT Universal, Cedar Point, or Six Flags. They spent decades conditioning us to expect better...why should we accept this from them now?

I agree with you on many of your posts, but this time I don't. History and facts are not on your side.

1. Historically, Disney has always had attractions that require an hours-long wait. I grew up going to Disneyland in the 70s and 80s. There was always huge lines for select E-ticket attractions. Space Mountain with its upstairs entrance routinely had a line going down the speed ramp and down the main drag of Tomorrowland under the people mover. The signs saying your wait time from this point 120 minutes or 180 minutes. When StarTours opened at DL, I waited in lines on Main Street.
2. Just because you do not want to wait in line, does not mean that the concept of waiting for what you want is wrong. It is the law of Supply and Demand in action. If Demand exceeds supply, increase the price to achieve equilibrium. It is the basis of our economic system. In this case, the price is both dollars and opportunity cost of time.
3. Change the way you tour. For example, you can arrive prior to park opening for attractions that you value and ride them first. In February, I arrived at HS 30 minutes before opening, was in front of Starbucks when they rope dropped and was on Slinky Dog Dash within 20 minutes of park opening. Rode SDD, then headed to Sunset Blvd for a 10-minute wait for RRC, Dropped into the Tower with a slight wait, not sure of the time and then hit it to Star Tours with a 30-minute wait. Along with 2 smoke breaks, we were out of HS by 11:00 am hopped to Epcot for lunch at Festival of the Arts. 2.5 hours total at HS including the wait prior to Rope Drop.

 

[Kman101]

Reportedly starting 2/4 when you cancel your WDW hotel room your fastpasses will also be cancelled so those that made throwaway room reservations wouldn't be able to do so anymore.

Also you are said to have 2 days of grace period. So if you rebook you would still have the fastpasses rather than them cancelling immediately.

I never commented on this. But isn't this how it always should have been? LOL

 

[nickys]

I never commented on this. But isn't this how it always should have been? LOL

Agreed. Unfortunately although they closed some of the loopholes, a significant one remains uncertain for now.

 

[sunshine]

Just wanted to say there are now reports of FPs actually being cancelled when a reservation is cancelled and no new reservation is made.

So far, the reports only cover those still within their 30-60 day window when they cancel. So no confirmation yet about the FPs booked with the 60 day window and a reservation being cancelled after the 30 day window is open.

And the early opening window is now definitely fixed.

What is the "early opening window" ? I'm sorry, I'm sure it's in this thread somewhere but I can't find it! Thanks!

 

[nickys]

What is the "early opening window" ? I'm sorry, I'm sure it's in this thread somewhere but I can't find it.

Some people, and only some (!) found they could make FPs on a rolling day basis 74 days ahead.

Basically some numpty in IT managed to screw things up. Because you can book up to 14 days worth of FPs at your 60 day window, that means you can only ever hold FPs 74 days into the future. And whilst this worked just fine, they somehow managed to create a random 74 day window. They finally fixed it last week.

 

[bUU]

The problem stems from Disney failing to replace/repair defunct attractions and instead just shuttering them, and the attitude from a large number of Disney guests that spending as many as 3-4 hours in line for a single attraction is acceptable.

It is interesting to me that you typed this yet didn't realize how the latter (Disney guest behavior) is actually the cause of the former, rather than both former (Disney closing old attractions) and latter (Disney guest behavior) being independent causes.

As it is, "Disney closing old attractions" is a red herring. Disney has opened new attractions at a rate in excess of closing old attractions. Beyond that, they've done a far better job with new attractions with regard to how many guests each serves, and with regard to the quality of the experience in queue. These facts nullify any contention about the closing of old attractions as much as such contentions are nullified by guest behavior, attendance stats, and revenues in the face of what's offered.

Historically, Disney has always had attractions that require an hours-long wait.

I think a lot of the criticisms are grounded in denial of both how things have improved and how things were never as great as the critic remembers.

Just because you do not want to wait in line, does not mean that the concept of waiting for what you want is wrong.

This aspect of the foundation of the criticisms is a reflection of societal changes, including how much more people these days tend to lean into a sense of entitlement. There are aspects of society today that are demonstrably worse - don't get me started on the sympathy I have for those closer to the start of their working lives than to the end of it. However, today's theme park attractions experience is not one of those things.

Change the way you tour.

This is great advice, but it also underscores just how things have not changed, as the criticism alleges: I can dig out email to my brother from twenty years ago offering the same advice. His family has always been night-owls, and so when we took them to Disney for the first time it was work to convince them to time-shift their lives - to get to sleep early and to get up early and to get to the parks early, to enjoy several attractions before the queues become interminable.

 

[Trackmaster]

I realize all that...but with how crowded the parks are, and Disney not slowing down on marketing or cramming more people in...I really worry that it will get to that point. I considered us extremely lucky to get a FEA FP in a time-slot at least close to what we wanted on our October 2016 trip. We wouldn't have gotten it at all if I hadn't spent time multiple times throughout the morning checking availability. (Funny thing...we had FPs for the ride, but still ended up waiting more than 45 minutes. I could be mistaken, but it seemed like they weren't loading the boats with nearly as many people as they can hold.)

Generally, we stay at the values because our kids like them and we really don't stay in our room for anything other than sleeping/showering (with the exception of a "splurge" trip once in a while). We aren't usually repeat riders in a single day, with a few exceptions (GMR was a biggie, Grand Fiesta as well, and I'm sure the Mickey/Minnie Railway will be a favorite).

Sure, we can wait for a long time in a Stand-by line, but how many kids do you know can wait 2+ hours in line without needing to pee or getting hungry/angry/tired? Heck, I don't know many adults that can do that (and I think the violence another poster mentioned is evidence of this). I also was taken aback on our last trip by a FP line that was literally almost walk-on, but stand-by had more than an hour wait (I don't remember which attraction). Is there a "rule" for loading attractions with FP vs. stand-by riders? Even with a FP I would consider a 15-20 minute wait acceptable - especially if it meant shorter overall stand-by wait times for everyone. I guess my point is that no one should have to choose between paying an up-charge or spending 2+ hours standing in line for a single attraction, and I'd be curious to see how long the average guest (by average, I mean visits maybe once or twice in their life to bring their kids) wastes waiting in lines over a week-long trip. I'd also be curious to see how much time a repeat, knowledgeable visitor spends with their face in their phone monkeying with FPs so they can avoid the huge waits. Further, the "challenges" another poster mentioned are ridiculous and just illustrates the selfishness that has become pervasive in our society.

As an aside...I have 2 sons, both of whom have autism. In the past we've not needed to get the DAS pass because they are generally very good in line and we have strategies that help us all pass the time. However, with the way things are going, we will probably need to get one in the future because - and trust me on this - no one wants to listen to my youngest ask in a very loud voice if its our turn every 1.5 seconds for an hour or more, or worst-case-scenario have a melt-down.

I mean they post the line times.... and usually exaggerate. If you get stuck waiting in a two hour line, that's on you. You can either wait in line, and enjoy the ride, or not go.

You say that people won't keep giving them money if the lines continue to be long, but this is untrue. The fact that the lines are long are proof that its like crack to people.

The key is that Disney is all about the FP+ now. Your FP+ line-up is more or less what you can expect to get on in a day. Anything stand-by is a bonus. And Disney isn't shy about that. There's a reason they call it stand-by and not the "regular line." You're at the convenience of the park at that point. They want you using FP+.

 

[Trackmaster]

I agree with you on many of your posts, but this time I don't. History and facts are not on your side.

1. Historically, Disney has always had attractions that require an hours-long wait. I grew up going to Disneyland in the 70s and 80s. There was always huge lines for select E-ticket attractions. Space Mountain with its upstairs entrance routinely had a line going down the speed ramp and down the main drag of Tomorrowland under the people mover. The signs saying your wait time from this point 120 minutes or 180 minutes. When StarTours opened at DL, I waited in lines on Main Street.
2. Just because you do not want to wait in line, does not mean that the concept of waiting for what you want is wrong. It is the law of Supply and Demand in action. If Demand exceeds supply, increase the price to achieve equilibrium. It is the basis of our economic system. In this case, the price is both dollars and opportunity cost of time.
3. Change the way you tour. For example, you can arrive prior to park opening for attractions that you value and ride them first. In February, I arrived at HS 30 minutes before opening, was in front of Starbucks when they rope dropped and was on Slinky Dog Dash within 20 minutes of park opening. Rode SDD, then headed to Sunset Blvd for a 10-minute wait for RRC, Dropped into the Tower with a slight wait, not sure of the time and then hit it to Star Tours with a 30-minute wait. Along with 2 smoke breaks, we were out of HS by 11:00 am hopped to Epcot for lunch at Festival of the Arts. 2.5 hours total at HS including the wait prior to Rope Drop.

To #2, this is an age old argument that I hear, but it really comes down to how you define waiting. If by waiting you mean that you express a desire to do something, do other stuff, and come back later and do what you wanted, then yes: I could see not wanting to that being a personality problem and something that needs to be fixed.

But the issue here is having to stand for two hours, looking at the back of somebody's head, doing nothing while other people ride a ride, just so that you can ride something for three minutes. That's actually kind of insanity. And to top it off, you paid $100 to do this.

Waits are generally caused because of lack of capacity compared to demand. Disney does what they can with capacity, but the problem I mentioned above can be solved with savvy virtual queuing systems and good old fashion reservations. There's no real reason that a consumer should have to not only pay for a ticket, but endure a terrible, mind numbing experience in the name of "patience." Disney is using cutting edge technology to help guests reserve experiences, and the idea of reserving in demand experiences has been around forever. Be thankful that you don't have to wait in line to see a doctor for a routine check-up. Be thankful that restaurants (not necessarily Disney, but most places in general) take reservations on Friday nights so you don't have to wait.

The only issue Disney has now is the scarcity of the availability of laps for attractions.