News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

KrzyKtty

Well-Known Member
Here's a question, would it be possible for RCID and Disney to sell most of the physical land and building assets back to Disney and set up leasing agreements instead? That way when the counties end up absorbing RCID, they get stuck with a bunch of leases but no actual land and building assets? Then the counties would get stuck Paying Disney for the leases to the land the fire houses and what not are on? Or is not legal?

I'm not saying I think Disney should or would do that, but if this goes far enough I'm wondering if Disney would do it to secure their land assets and stick it to Florida. But mostly so that they don't lose valuable land assets.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
That's swell ... but why don't you demonstrate where I "claimed a net benefits [to Disney] on every line item" related to RCID like you said I did? Because that portion you quoted above doesn't claim anything remotely like that. I should know; I was there when I typed it.
When you argue against someone defending a line item point - that's your inferred point. Stop mucking up debunking of facts with someone challenging your predisposed point.
 

AdventureHasAName

Well-Known Member
Hey, did we ever sort out who owns the infrastructure providing electricity to the WDW property? Because as far as I can tell, it's that revenue that is paying down the $2 billion bond debt and RCID seems to think they own it. And if RCID owns it and everything that RCID owns is going to wind up belonging to Orange County upon dissolution of RCID, it would seem to me that, unless Disney intends to operate without electricity for the foreseeable future, that's the money Orange County will be using to pay the debt it is absorbing.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
Nobody said it "was actually done." The question was "Is there any indication they intend to do it?" And I said that the state senator who wrote the bill said they intends to do it and that should serve as a fairly good indication. Others feel differently.
Didn't I read, like a 100 pages ago, that there was an indication they would solve a home owners insurance problem? That it was a key part of why the special session was occurring, and yet it was not resolved?

They set a date, created a cliff that will be guaranteed be reached. They've offered vague indication that they left out some important details and surely they'll fix them. Yet, they have a poor track record of resolving stuff.

Maybe they find the money for the counties.
Maybe Disney fights it and the issue goes away.
Maybe Disney doesn't fight the district dissolving, but does fight paying new taxes that are different from the district taxes.

There are clear short term monetary advantages to Disney to drop the district.
There are clear long term strategic disadvantage to Disney to drop the district.

Given the hand it's been dealt, Disney will pick one to fight for. It's anyone's guess which it will be. But the clock is running, and running out the clock with no changes is clearly bad for the counties.
 

AdventureHasAName

Well-Known Member
When you argue against someone defending a line item point - that's your inferred point. Stop mucking up debunking of facts with someone challenging your predisposed point.
FUN FACT: I'm one of the world's foremost authorities on my own predispositions. And that's not at all what I was predisposed to believe (or currently believe, or will believe in the future). If it was, I would have said it.
 

Chip Chipperson

Well-Known Member
Well who do you think is going to own the electricity-providing infrastructure (that RCID now owns) once RCID is dissolved? You know that electricity-providing infrastructure that RCID currently uses to pay for the much-referenced $2 billion (it's really more like $1 billion, but I digress) bond debt?

No, the $1B in General Obligation debt isn't paid through utility bill collections. It's paid with tax revenues - revenues that cease to exist when RCID ceases to exist. There are separate Utility Revenue bonds issued by RCID that I did not include in that total because they aren't paid with tax revenues, but are instead paid with Utility fund revenues (the Utility bills WDW pays).
 

AdventureHasAName

Well-Known Member
Given the hand it's been dealt, Disney will pick one to fight for. It's anyone's guess which it will be. But the clock is running, and running out the clock with no changes is clearly bad for the counties.
The clock has been running for less than 24 hours. The doomsday prophecy might be a little hasty.
 

AdventureHasAName

Well-Known Member
No, the $1B in General Obligation debt isn't paid through utility bill collections. It's paid with tax revenues - revenues that cease to exist when RCID ceases to exist. There are separate Utility Revenue bonds issued by RCID that I did not include in that total because they aren't paid with tax revenues, but are instead paid with Utility fund revenues (the Utility bills WDW pays).
But isn't that how the $1B total keeps creeping upwards in the media? Because these other bonds are being all thrown together into one bond debt number? Isn't that how $1B becomes $1.7B and then becomes $2B?
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
So, I ask again (for like the 30th time in the thread) ... your belief is that the Republican Governor and Republican state legislature (that just dissolved RCID in order to punch Disney in the nose) is going to just shrug its shoulders and say, "Our work here is done" and gift Disney a massive tax break debt forgiveness rather than follow-through with the course of action that the Republican state senator WHO WROTE THE BILL says they will? That's your belief?

My belief is they didn't give a crap about the consequences and only wanted to try to punish Disney. The rest of the state is simply collateral damage in their ill conceived and rushed attack. They either don't care or have a plan to not even do this in the end.

They didn't have a plan for paying for it - if they did, why not avoid the huge backlash from Florida voters who are facing having huge liabilities dumped on their doorstep by making it part of the law? Or even have a proposed bill on how it would be done?

Meanwhile, we have ALL THE PARTIES involved saying the Senators haven't engaged with any of them on how it would work. So yeah.. I'm going with the "we don't have a plan to pay for it" interpretation of the GOP's action.

Especially when the Senator's responses are fluffy non-sense on how it would work.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
Here's a question, would it be possible for RCID and Disney to sell most of the physical land and building assets back to Disney and set up leasing agreements instead? That way when the counties end up absorbing RCID, they get stuck with a bunch of leases but no actual land and building assets? Then the counties would get stuck Paying Disney for the leases to the land the fire houses and what not are on? Or is not legal?

I'm not saying I think Disney should or would do that, but if this goes far enough I'm wondering if Disney would do it to secure their land assets and stick it to Florida. But mostly so that they don't lose valuable land assets.
That's an interesting question. With a known end date when all of RCID's assets and debts will be transferred to someone else, what are the restrictions on what they can do in the meantime?

How much new assets and debts can they acquire or divest between now and then?

There's probably a different Disney attorney and accountant working on this one.
 

AdventureHasAName

Well-Known Member
My belief is they didn't give a crap about the consequences and only wanted to try to punish Disney. The rest of the state is simply collateral damage in their ill conceived and rushed attack. They either don't care or have a plan to not even do this in the end.

They didn't have a plan for paying for it - if they did, why not avoid the huge backlash from Florida voters who are facing having huge liabilities dumped on their doorstep by making it part of the law? Or even have a proposed bill on how it would be done?

Meanwhile, we have ALL THE PARTIES involved saying the Senators haven't engaged with any of them on how it would work. So yeah.. I'm going with the "we don't have a plan to pay for it" interpretation of the GOP's action.

Especially when the Senator's responses are fluffy non-sense on how it would work.
Of course, I didn't ask you if you believed they currently had a plan. What I did ask you was if you thought it would happen (or not happen) before dissolution of RCID.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
Yeah, but what difference does it make as long as the appropriate legislation is passed prior to the dissolution of the district?
That's some blind faith that it'll just fixed like magic before the deadline hits.

That's kind of like my faith that I'll get 4 Genie+ LL that I want on our trip and that the entire Genie+ fee isn't just throwing money away. I can hope, but if nothing changes between now and then, it's not likely.
 

DrewmanS

Well-Known Member
Have I not been following this correctly, they're dissolving the district right? Kind of like a company going bankrupt, chapter 7, and dissolving completely.

Sure, they could add new laws to do it differently, but they didn't. And they set a deadline already, so if they don't do something else, doesn't it just dissolve?

From the reporting, I'm assuming the current law, not some future possible additional change, did transfer the debt and assets of the district to the county. But, it didn't transfer the taxing authority. It just dissolved that. It's like the counties are getting all the assets and debts at liquidation but none of the revenue generating authority. Opps.

Those quotes feel like wishful thinking and not what was actually done.
It is not like a company going bankrupt. It is removing a special district within the state. When you remove the special district, the responsibility for that district then returns to the normal governing body (in this case Orange and Osceola counties) from which it was carved out. Unless a new district is formed, all assets, property, and debt contained therein is transferred to the the county. So anything that is part of RCID (not private land owned by Disney) would become part of the counties in which it lies in (including debt).

This law effects all special districts formed before 1968. The premise is that since the current Florida constitution was updated an approved in 1968 anything formed prior to the current constitution can be dissolved. This will likely open up a lot of legal challenges. If "true" then any current city, treaty, contract, law, property ownership, etc. could be dissolved by the current legislation by a majority vote (A VERY slippery slope). So many entities outside of Disney may challenge the validity of this law, not just those directly effected.

Almost every port and water authority, the Daytona 500 raceway, and other entities could be impacted by this law. The assumption is that each of these special districts (with the exception of RCID) will be re-established intact. Of course, greed and power could derail that plan. What if a city or county wants to gain control over the port authority? What if a large land owner with deep pockets wants to force changes to a water authority district? There could be legal challenges to re-establishing each district. This is potentially a Pandora's Box for the state of Florida.

Since this law was written in just a few days, it is apparent that no one thought through all of the financial/tax implications for the counties. As it stand now, without the additional tax collected by RCID, WDW would likely pay less taxes. As for the speed of getting things done, I am sure Disney would enter into Private/Public partnerships to expedite any projects.

So in the end, this will be a black eye on Disney from a PR standpoint, they may loose some self government (assuming law is not overturned) which could impact speed/quality of infrastructure projects and maintenance, but likely will actually lower taxes and overall costs for WDW because that burden will be spread over the entire county tax base. For the Politicians, they will sell this as a "victory" and likely help them with their base constituents through the mid-term elections, but next year they will have to deal with the mess they just created. For the State, this likely will cause pause for some large companies to locate their businesses in a state that retaliates against business based on politics. It could also have unintended consequences on other special districts. So, no real "winner" however this plays out, but maybe same extra cash for Disney to build another "E" ticket ride that we can all complain took too long, is too expensive and in the wrong park!
 

AdventureHasAName

Well-Known Member
Surely a lawyer would realize the challenge of instituting a whole new tax regimen in a few months. Not to mention the issue of the costs that start now.
Yes, surely a lawyer would. But then again, a lawyer would also surely realize that when a new tax regimen is implemented, everyone involved in the implementation is typically involved in the technical crafting of the regimen itself ... so it's not like anyone would be surprised by how the implementation is going to work on the day it is passed into law by the legislature.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
My bets are on the following...

  1. RCID sue the state over the dissolution citing the Reedy Creek Act and the attack on their municipal powers - with the Bonds being the big hammer
  2. The counties sue the state over the way the dissolution is structured and the consequences and division of stuff
  3. No dissolution happens in the next 3-5 years as all as the case is bogged down in courts
I bet TWDC does not directly challenge the law on 1A grounds because it's a fight they don't really need *YET*. They let the RCID issue stay a state issue and let that process play out.. as RCID likely has a strong position to tear up the law as written now.

Then, TWDC only enters the fray on 1A claims if the challenges to the law faulter and TWDC opens up the potential nuclear war with the GOP and the national stage. I think it's in Disney's interest to downplay this whole thing and suggest it will all be cleared up in the existing courts.. without something that could lead to getting blood on their hands directly.

Letting RCID defeat this on existing laws is cleaner.. and avoids escalating the Disney vs GOP fight. I don't think Disney is eager to win that fight and would rather not have it in the news.
 

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