Florida commission: Disney discriminated against autistic visitors

[flynnibus]

Why can't they ask? I once offered by state disability card, was told they cannot take it.

Simply they can't make the decision based on your ability to provide proof - so there is no reason to ask. Taking in info would muddy complaints and infer it is steering decisions.

There are exceptions but that's the basic foundation

 

[BroganMc]

Maybe Universal has changed since I was there, it was a number of years ago, but at the time they offered no assistance, and I was unable to enjoy attractions alone. They did not at that time have a 30 minute wait system, perhaps my going ballistic had good results. I am going to WDW in August, but since there are many things I no longer do I will have to see how the new system works. the shame of it all is that the problem was at Disney Land, not Disney World but we all pay for it. Luckily most of the new rides have been made to accommodate wheel chairs and scooters.

When I last visited Universal in 2002 they had virtually no assistance program for the disabled. My experience was terrible and frightening. And at the time I was traveling in a manual wheelchair with two helpers. The experience left me scarred for years and I never wanted to go back. Harry Potter World got me going again. Still I delayed using my tickets until I had to. My experience was so different this time and so much better I'm considering getting an Annual Pass. Meanwhile Disney has frustrated me so much I will not purchase day tickets ever again. I get a DVC discount on my AP and that makes it worth a 6 hr or less park visit. I get in 20 days a year so the cost is $25/day or less.

I'll have interesting things to say in my DVC Member survey this trip. Definitely Disney sucks when compared to Universal in how it handles wait times for the mobility disabled.

True I can't do ET without someone pushing me thru the line, but everything else I tried was more than possible on my own. And how they handled my dad's issues when he just had a scooter for stamina was so helpful.

I think it helps that everyone had the same advantage getting a shorter line at anytime when you pay for it. And there are many more rides close together to do. Disney has too much dead space in their parks filled with landscaping and shops.

Give Universal a try next time you're in town. But research it a little first to see which rides you can do. My first day was spent walking around both parks and don't only a couple things. I can not sit properly in a rollercoaster style seat or do rollercoasters so a lot of the Harry Potter rides I couldn't do. Islands of Adventure was very frustrating. My second and third days were much better. I did a lot more and stayed late.

I totally understand why people don't complain about Universal's AAP but she Disney over DAS. Disney has made one fatal flaw with their disability plan. They assume FP+ covers most needs but having a schedule set weeks before you enter the park and unable to change is simmering the disabled tend to have problems with. You just don't know when your disability will get in the way and you have to change your plan. Either because an autistic child is having a bad day and prone to meltdowns or the physical condition of your medical issues flare. Part of my problems are severe back spasms that cause so much pain I cannot function at all. We're talking fetal position, trying not to vomit or cry. I can get control of it with medication and time but the last thing I can handle is having that problem while stuck in a crowd for an hour.

GAC have the disabled flexibility to enjoy their days around their limitations. DAS took most of that flexibility away. FP+ offers no flexibility.

 

[BroganMc]

Simply they can't make the decision based on your ability to provide proof - so there is no reason to ask. Taking in info would muddy complaints and infer it is steering decisions.

There are exceptions but that's the basic foundation

Problem is the definition of disabled was broadened so much over the last 20 years the law needs revisiting or else we will just be opening the door to so much fraud there's no help for the group we intended to aid.

I understand the reason for providing services for those with hidden disabilities but not requiring some sort of proof begs for abuse. So does a company tolerate some abuse to help the ones they want?

When DAS was implemented Oct 2013 I had lots of discussions with CMs who expected they'd be cutting out who they thought were cheaters (I.e. those without mobility or visible disabilities) and more able to help me. All were shocked to learn my actual experience. I was the subject of several manager meetings that week.

What I'd like to see Disney so is raise that minimum threshold for Return Times to 30 mins (the industry standard) and allow DAS scheduling along with FP+ (on the MDE app). If I had been able to do that I probably would have ridden Soarin today. As it was by the time we walked around the countries I was done for the day.

I did rude the Mexico boat ride. That did include a bit of a line and a wait for the ADA boat. An extra 5 mins. Just to be clear, that doesn't bother me. What does is an extra 20+ min wait and/or being crammed in with pedestrians who don't give me breathing room or consideration. You just don't comprehend how many people hit you as they step over you to get somewhere then say they didn't see you.

 

[flynnibus]

Problem is the definition of disabled was broadened so much over the last 20 years the law needs revisiting or else we will just be opening the door to so much fraud there's no help for the group we intended to aid.

Actually the courts had been interpreting the ADA with a stricter, higher standard... but Congress wanted the opposite, which lead to the Amended version of the ADA being passed in 2009 to ensure the wider interpretation of the law. So.. don't try to infer or hang this on the general idea of wider diagnosis of mental disabilities, etc.. Congress intended, and even updated the law to ensure, the broad protections in the law.

 

[gljvd]

Blame the doctors who vouch for those people. I have disabled placard, I have PAD and very little blood flow to my extremeties. sometime I can walk well sometimes, most times I can't. I always have to lean on a shopping cart when shopping even if I am only picking up one item. But if someone watched me walk into a store they would swear that I was milking the system. My problem gets a little worse each year. I say this to say you can't judge someones disability or lack thereof by looking.

You also apparently can't judge someone's disability by asking for proof of it. So for every person like you who has a legit problem there can be a person who doesn't.

I have a few dishonest people in my extended family that abuse the system. One of them claims to have a bad knee and has a handicap plate and when he goes to Disney he abuses the system. He can't wait on line he claims. However I play soccer with him almost every weekend.

 

[Matt_Black]

However I play soccer with him almost every weekend.

That's not necessarily a great indicator. Prince apparently has to walk everywhere with canes, walkers, or braces, and yet you'd never realize that when you see him jamming on stage.

 

[BroganMc]

Actually the courts had been interpreting the ADA with a stricter, higher standard... but Congress wanted the opposite, which lead to the Amended version of the ADA being passed in 2009 to ensure the wider interpretation of the law. So.. don't try to infer or hang this on the general idea of wider diagnosis of mental disabilities, etc.. Congress intended, and even updated the law to ensure, the broad protections in the law.

Huh? It didn't matter who broadened the definition for my argument. It's that in broadening the definition of disabled you are allowing a system where too many people qualify for services. Eventually you have an unsustainable system. It's akin to Congress declaring every US Citizen qualifies for Medicare. Eventually you can't cover that many people without depleting your available resources to nothing.

So you have two choices here. Either make everything you provide usable to every type of person (every attraction is a show with sign language and no strobing lights) or limit the type of accessibility you provide to the specific disability. Have wheelchair line for the ADA vehicles, a line for transfers, a line for cognitive issues, a line for the blind, a line for deaf, a line for everyone else, etc.

The old GAC program tried to create these virtual lines with various stamps. Getting rid of that and designing a system only around one type of disability was their mistake.

Just don't make the mistake of assuming it was done to curb abuse at WDW. That was the party line excuse given, but the truth is GAC conflicted with their planned MyMagic+ roll out. Disney assumed by letting the disabled schedule a ride like everyone else they were fulfilling their service requirements. They underestimated how few resources they had to provide. If you can not schedule or reschedule a ride during your park visit (because there aren't enough rides to cover demand) then that program has no flexibility which the disabled (and all patrons) need.

The reason DAS will be abused now is because it provides one open ended return anytime after FP. That's very attractive when there are rides with uneven ridiculous demand. Disney needs to build more attractions to balance demand. At the very least they can eliminate tiers and one park restrictions. Let people schedule TSM for the morning and Buzz for the evening. If they're going to create a system that covers everyone, they cannot have any attraction book up completely at 60 days out. Everything has to be available the day of.

Universal covers this by offering Express Passes for sale to every park guest and dumped to hotel guests. With their AAP they can also offer additional services to patrons with extra needs.

 

[flynnibus]

Huh? It didn't matter who broadened the definition for my argument

It does matter, because there is no 'broadening' as you imply.. it is in fact a reiteration of 'this is the actual intention to include these people'. Prior, these people were NOT given the protection, hence the law's creation.

The only broadening was the very notion that the disabled should be protected in the first place. The disabled were simply a minority - not a niche.

It's that in broadening the definition of disabled you are allowing a system where too many people qualify for services. Eventually you have an unsustainable system. It's akin to Congress declaring every US Citizen qualifies for Medicare. Eventually you can't cover that many people without depleting your available resources to nothing.

I agree that in principle the aspirations are unobtainable.. but it's not because we've broadened the defintion - the original intent was too grand.

So you have two choices here. Either make everything you provide usable to every type of person (every attraction is a show with sign language and no strobing lights) or limit the type of accessibility you provide to the specific disability. Have wheelchair line for the ADA vehicles, a line for transfers, a line for cognitive issues, a line for the blind, a line for deaf, a line for everyone else, etc.

Sorry, that is a very unimaginative, dismissive view that thinks 'this is the only way'.

The old GAC program tried to create these virtual lines with various stamps. Getting rid of that and designing a system only around one type of disability was their mistake.

The old GAC did not create separate lines or queues... the original system tried to actually accommodate the specific type of physical disability with a specific solution (as the law intends). The problem was instead of providing specific accommodations, Disney got lazy and just turned more and more to the 'one size fits all'... which created a lucrative carrot many couldn't refrain from cheating to get.

Just don't make the mistake of assuming it was done to curb abuse at WDW. That was the party line excuse given, but the truth is GAC conflicted with their planned MyMagic+ roll out

I don't think it was about abuse at WDW - but it was another uncontrollable beast and it was wildly being abused at DLR. It was a beast that had to be tamed. The unrestricted nature of it does cause conflicts with modeling, but I imagine it was more that the solution would be even MORE abused when the FP model was changed because it becomes even MORE attractive. Not that it conflicted with FP+, but simply that FP+ would take the abuse problem and amplify it until everyone was carrying a GAC because it was the way to get FP+++ It would have created an even greater surge of abuse.

 

[gljvd]

That's not necessarily a great indicator. Prince apparently has to walk everywhere with canes, walkers, or braces, and yet you'd never realize that when you see him jamming on stage.

Prince is in pretty bad shape and you can tell in his newer performances . Look at one of his newer videos like breakfast can wait. He doesn't dance at all. They actually never show anything but his face . THe most I've seen him move is on the aresenio hall show and even then it be small spurts of movement.

As for my cousin don't worry. He does everything. Sky diving , skiing , he runs every day (we are training for the Disney half marathon right now actually. So we run 4 days a week together. Trust me , he has no real knee problem. He got the handicap stuff from his frat brother that's a dr.

 

[Mouse_Trap]

What I'd like to see Disney so is raise that minimum threshold for Return Times to 30 mins (the industry standard) and allow DAS scheduling along with FP+ (on the MDE app). If I had been able to do that I probably would have ridden Soarin today. As it was by the time we walked around the countries I was done for the day.

I'm not sure who sets this 'industry standard', but I don't see why 30 minutes would be more appropriate than the current time (10 minutes). If anything it would just encourage abuse because the perceived advantage would be far greater.

I don't see how this affected you in riding Soarin, if you'd wanted to ride wouldn't you have just hung around nearby for the maximum of the 20 minutes it would have been before you entered the line?

I totally understand why people don't complain about Universal's AAP but she Disney over DAS. Disney has made one fatal flaw with their disability plan. They assume FP+ covers most needs but having a schedule set weeks before you enter the park and unable to change is simmering the disabled tend to have problems with. You just don't know when your disability will get in the way and you have to change your plan. Either because an autistic child is having a bad day and prone to meltdowns or the physical condition of your medical issues flare. Part of my problems are severe back spasms that cause so much pain I cannot function at all. We're talking fetal position, trying not to vomit or cry. I can get control of it with medication and time but the last thing I can handle is having that problem while stuck in a crowd for an hour.

GAC have the disabled flexibility to enjoy their days around their limitations. DAS took most of that flexibility away. FP+ offers no flexibility.

The issues you describe are the people likely to get DAS though. DAS isn't FP+, you don't schedule a DAC 60 days in advance, you turn up an reserve a return time on the rides you choose - as and when you choose them. It's also very flexible in that there is no limit to its availability/usage.

Your back condition sounds awful, I'm glad I don't suffer that - however if the pain is that bad "fetal position, trying not to vomit or cry", then I can't imagine wanting to be in a theme park, period no matter having a GAC, DAS or FP+ in hand.

 

[angiebelle]

I'm not sure who sets this 'industry standard', but I don't see why 30 minutes would be more appropriate than the current time (10 minutes). If anything it would just encourage abuse because the perceived advantage would be far greater.

I don't see how this affected you in riding Soarin, if you'd wanted to ride wouldn't you have just hung around nearby for the maximum of the 20 minutes it would have been before you entered the line?



The issues you describe are the people likely to get DAS though. DAS isn't FP+, you don't schedule a DAC 60 days in advance, you turn up an reserve a return time on the rides you choose - as and when you choose them. It's also very flexible in that there is no limit to its availability/usage.

Your back condition sounds awful, I'm glad I don't suffer that - however if the pain is that bad "fetal position, trying not to vomit or cry", then I can't imagine wanting to be in a theme park, period no matter having a GAC, DAS or FP+ in hand.

I have this type of back pain at times. There is no telling when it will happen. Should I never leave my house?

 

[BroganMc]

I'm not sure who sets this 'industry standard', but I don't see why 30 minutes would be more appropriate than the current time (10 minutes). If anything it would just encourage abuse because the perceived advantage would be far greater.

I don't see how this affected you in riding Soarin, if you'd wanted to ride wouldn't you have just hung around nearby for the maximum of the 20 minutes it would have been before you entered the line?



The issues you describe are the people likely to get DAS though. DAS isn't FP+, you don't schedule a DAC 60 days in advance, you turn up an reserve a return time on the rides you choose - as and when you choose them. It's also very flexible in that there is no limit to its availability/usage.

Your back condition sounds awful, I'm glad I don't suffer that - however if the pain is that bad "fetal position, trying not to vomit or cry", then I can't imagine wanting to be in a theme park, period no matter having a GAC, DAS or FP+ in hand.

When you have a physical disability you have two choices in life: let it dominate your life and do nothing at all or learn how to manage it so you can participate as much as possible in life. Managing involves many coping strategies from taking medication (I always carry a supply of pain meds and the things I need to take them), to adapting your schedule of activities to just grinning and bearing the pain. You'd almost never guess u was in misery because I'm very good at smiling and pretending I'm fine, especially with strangers. Only my close family knows how bad it is.

The difference with Universal is because there were more things avaliable for me in that 30 minute window I was able to do more when my body was behaving.

This week I am in Disney. Today I tried to get a FP+ for Toy Story. None available. Got to the park and got a return time of 85 mins. That was right before my Beauty FP+. So we opted to go occupy ourselves elsewhere. Nearest attraction with a shorter Standby was Great Movie Ride. App said 15 mins. By the time we got there Standby was up to 20. So I got in line with everyone else and started the timer on my phone to see how long we really waited. 25 mins in the queue. No room for my wheelchair in the vehicle so I waked for the next. Now we're at 30 mins and guess what? My body started acting up just as we boarded. Is it a wonder I didn't enjoy myself?

Had I been at Universal I would have been on and off that rude before my body went south.

Fortunately I was able to get things under control again in the next half hour before lining up for Beauty.

This is why I saw Disney fails when it comes to assisting what others like to call the"truly" disabled. The only flexibility available now is for one DAS Return Time a day. Everything else must be scheduled and often passed because the disability got in the way.

Understand?

 

[jgz1]

My oldest has Down Syndrome and Autism. In 2010 we were at WDW with him and his service dog and used the old system. It worked very well and I have to say the Cast Members bent over backwards to help us.

Last October we went again (without the dog) and found with some planning the new system worked just as well or better. I spent a lot of time running around signing up rides but used in conjunction with Fast Pass, Lunch Parade's, shows, shopping you can get a lot done. We did have my son in a wheelchair as well as he cannot walk great distances. Again the Cast Members did an amazing job.

We were disappointed when the old system was cancelled but the CS rep at Hollywood Studios did a great job explaining the new system and strategies to get us going.

It is too bad some people abused the system but with some effort the new one is just as good.

 

[Matt_Black]

My oldest has Down Syndrome and Autism. In 2010 we were at WDW with him and his service dog and used the old system. It worked very well and I have to say the Cast Members bent over backwards to help us.

Last October we went again (without the dog) and found with some planning the new system worked just as well or better. I spent a lot of time running around signing up rides but used in conjunction with Fast Pass, Lunch Parade's, shows, shopping you can get a lot done. We did have my son in a wheelchair as well as he cannot walk great distances. Again the Cast Members did an amazing job.

We were disappointed when the old system was cancelled but the CS rep at Hollywood Studios did a great job explaining the new system and strategies to get us going.

It is too bad some people abused the system but with some effort the new one is just as good.

Glad to hear that you had a positive experience, and that the Cast Members, as always, performed in an exemplary fashion.

 

[Tom Morrow]

One of the things that often gets repeatedly incorrectly on the discussion about this subject are the actual numbers of usage and abuse Disney found at WDW vs DL for GAC. At the time of the switch in 2013, it was reported Disney surveyed how many requests for GAC GR relations received at all parks compared to guests entering the parks over a 6 month period. DL had 30% usage/requests and WDW (across all 4 parks) had 1%. Even if half of that one percent were "abusers" that number is not significant enough to warrant a problem.

I don't believe any numbers were ever officially released, but your information on WDW's numbers is incorrect. Maybe WDW didn't quite ever reach DLR's levels, but GACs accounted for as high as 1/5th of everyone riding major WDW attractions. I know this for a fact. I know people that directly physically counted the GAC usage. I know that GR used to hand out absolutely absurd amounts of GACs daily. And even if that daily number only accounted for, let's say, 5% of families, those cards would remain active for a long time, no questions asked.

 

[SoupBone]

I don't believe any numbers were ever officially released, but your information on WDW's numbers is incorrect. Maybe WDW didn't quite ever reach DLR's levels, but GACs accounted for as high as 1/5th of everyone riding major WDW attractions. I know this for a fact. I know people that directly physically counted the GAC usage. I know that GR used to hand out absolutely absurd amounts of GACs daily. And even if that daily number only accounted for, let's say, 5% of families, those cards would remain active for a long time, no questions asked.

Thank you. I remember someone posting numbers similar to these. It might have even been you. Anyone thinking that abuse wasn't rampant is delusional. It's unfortunate for both sides in this argument, and the only reason we're having this discussion.

 

[George]

I like to take advantage of the system, but to avoid guilt I make myself incredibly sick. In particular, since I claim to suffer from "Explosive Diarrhea Syndrome (the less common EDS)" I tend to eat some chicken parm that I've let sit out in the Orlando sun for 8-9 days before I enter the park. Believe me, I really need the ability to cut to the front of the line!

 

[StarWarsGirl]

I think the disability passes are fair for people with real physical disabilities. And if someone can't mentally handle a certain situation then it's almost abuse to put them in the middle of that situation.

I think you need to go through and read posts like this...

Every autistic child is different and many don't need a ton of accommodations, but many do, this is not entitlement its reality for many of these families. My child is on the spectrum and thanks to lots of early intervention and therapy and yes medication when he was younger, he is in high school honors classes, is a star scout with no accommodations, and should be able to go to college. But it doesn't change the fact that getting there was a difficult journey and he is still as autistic as he was when he was six and attacked his mom with a fork because he did not how to deal with being told he could not do something (hence the meds for a few years). But once he was ready we got him off the meds and he has learned to cope and deal with all as much as he can.
But there are many families with kids on the much more severe end who are just trying to get through the day let alone thinking about college, and those kids have no idea what entitlement even is.

And this...

It's a place families go to have fun, and many need the assistance of programs like this and don't see it as teaching their child to wait for handouts.

And this...

Both of those are true statements. For someone raising a child with disabilities, fun is a perk where you can find it. But the primary reason behind everything we do is improving the life of our children through our daily lives. If I did not have a son with autism, I'd still go to WDW. But it would be less often, the manner in which I tour the parks would be much different, and I would definitely vacation elsewhere more frequently. But I use my limited budget on WDW and WDW alone, because I know the valuable impacts it has on my sons behaviors and abilities.

And this

Actually, for some, Disney can be quite therapeutic and the stimulation is good for them. My younger brother actually comes back from WDW in better shape than he was in before he left.

I agree that for some, the parents should think twice before going to WDW. But for many, it's quite beneficial and not at all torture for them. They have fun.

Also this...

With the accommodations that WDW has in place between the DAS and FP we enjoy going to the parks. My son complains about going there but when we get there he has a blast with everything around him.

And this
http://www.mickeymomtravel.com/Blog/DAS/Default.aspx

Clearly, not abuse

 

[Melron]

I guess my point is that there are any number of times that people with autistic kids are required to wait. Even if you are given priority boarding status, there still is a waiting time for the plane to arrive.

As a mother of an autistic child just to help, it isn't the waiting that causes meltdowns it is the close proximity of lots of people, and or the noise levels as some autistic children/adults cannot distinguish between foreground and background noise, so imagine being in a supermarket with the tills bleeping the tannoys going people talking and all of this at the same level hence why you will see some that wear ear defenders that cancel out noise. I do not agree with the suing for discrimination, as in my view anything is better than nothing, we have been to disney five times, however this is the first time with an autistic child that can now ride every ride, that you can't put in a stroller etc, it is completly possible but requires a certain amount of planning, and those plans can be changed at a moments notice, and our son does enjoy theme parks it is not the case that we take him just because everyone else wants to go, and in all fairness why should he miss out

 

[flynnibus]

As a mother of an autistic child just to help, it isn't the waiting that causes meltdowns it is the close proximity of lots of people, and or the noise levels as some autistic children/adults cannot distinguish between foreground and background noise, so imagine being in a supermarket with the tills bleeping the tannoys going people talking and all of this at the same level hence why you will see some that wear ear defenders that cancel out noise

In those cases where a person can not tolerate being in open, chaotic places with lots of noise and commotion... then in those cases the person should avoid those spots. It is not 'reasonable accommodation' to give people a private version of a public space such as a theme park. Allow them to do what they need to do to minimize the impact.. sure.. (headphones, etc). Give them an isolated experience to avoid crowds in general? No.. not reasonable.