FastPass+ Most Certainly Not Coming Back As It Was

[Goofyernmost]

You also don't want to do something that will potentially double the cost of a family's entire trip.

Trying to get more money from less people is a very tricky business model-especially for something that is designed for families.

@G00fyDad you're spot on! The Boo Bash comparison makes no sense. The folks that go to Boo Bash are a specific crowd that know what they are doing and doing it for one night. The fraction of people attending that event is tiny compared to how many go the rest of the year. Riding on rides is not an event. It is part of the trip itself.

Once people realize and see the lines getting to 1-2 hours and having to make a choice between that or spending an extra $3000 or more on their trip, things are going to get very wonky very fast.

They will not see that. What they will see is if Disney can limit the number of FP's, or whatever they decide to name it, the lines will never be that long again. Sometimes when we are not required to focus on fantasy, we can find that the simplest of setups usually work the best. Charging for it will serve to cut down on FP lines. Sure some will be happy to pay it, but not everyone and the fewer that do the happier the general public will be. And everyone is happy. Disney with additional income they never had before, those that can afford it and just cannot be in line with the peasants will have something to brag about and the average guest that is working on a budget and are frustrated with standing in stagnant lines will move along quickly. Sort of a win, win, win!

 

[Goofyernmost]

Not sure it’s line cutting, it’s not waiting.

Which is a lot like... It's not stealing, it's liberating it. Liberating is much more noble.

 

[flynnibus]

So... where is this massive fallout from all the other theme parks that use the system?? I haven't seen a populist revolt at Universal which charges $300+ for peak express passes.

Because while that's on the menu - it's not really what most people actually buy. Most of those users are 'free' users.. and those that do buy, aren't doing it for 3-4 days like they would expect to do with FP at Disney.

It really is comparing apples and oranges. The express pass bolt on at UNI is really for the people desperate to pay... they aren't targeting a high attach rate.

FP on the other hand was a product aiming for 100% attach rate. These two things are not alike.

Plus, UNI really didn't have an established history of free use like FP does. Different beasts and different expectations from consumers.

 

[Brian Noble]

UNI really didn't have an established history of free use like FP does

I think they did, if we go back far enough. I dimly recall in-park kiosks where you could get in a single virtual queue at a time, free for anyone, sort of like the old paper FPs. That was a *long* time ago---around the same time that Cedar Point had the "timed handstamps" that were, likewise, free (you could get up to two of them, one for each hand!) Both operators switched to a paid version around the same time IIRC, though CP might have been a year or three later. I never used Universal's version, but I (dimly) remember reading about it. I did use CP's.

Edited to add: this is how Cedar Point's worked. It was only in use for a few years, tops before they switched to a paid version. http://experiencethepoint.com/info/freeway.asp

 

[havoc315]

Because while that's on the menu - it's not really what most people actually buy. Most of those users are 'free' users.. and those that do buy, aren't doing it for 3-4 days like they would expect to do with FP at Disney.

Tada!!!! That's the whole point! That's what will happen at WDW!!!

You seem to be under some assumption that just because Disney used to offer a FP system that was for "everyone," that the new system will be for "everyone." But things change.
Guess what -- Guests are no longer buying books of tickets anymore either.

It really is comparing apples and oranges. The express pass bolt on at UNI is really for the people desperate to pay... they aren't targeting a high attach rate.

Again --- That's the whole point! A $150-$300 FP wouldn't be aiming for a "high attach rate" -- It would be looking for adoption by a small percentage of guests!!!

FP on the other hand was a product aiming for 100% attach rate. These two things are not alike.

Let's emphasize the KEY word. It WAS aiming for 100% attach rate. If they go with something more like the Universal model, they will be looking for a 5-10% attach rate.

Plus, UNI really didn't have an established history of free use like FP does. Different beasts and different expectations from consumers.

Which is why the pandemic has given Disney the perfect opportunity to reset expectations. Current expectations is not "free FP" -- Current expectations is NO FP.

You may as well say, "Disney can't get rid of DME--- people expect it!" "Disney can't get rid of EMH -- people expect it!"
It's pretty obvious, Disney isn't making plans based on pre-2019 expectations.

 

[CosmicRays]

Because while that's on the menu - it's not really what most people actually buy. Most of those users are 'free' users.. and those that do buy, aren't doing it for 3-4 days like they would expect to do with FP at Disney.

It really is comparing apples and oranges. The express pass bolt on at UNI is really for the people desperate to pay... they aren't targeting a high attach rate.

FP on the other hand was a product aiming for 100% attach rate. These two things are not alike.

Plus, UNI really didn't have an established history of free use like FP does. Different beasts and different expectations from consumers.

Seems like Disney wouldn't want a 100 % attach rate to their FP. More people waiting longer means more revenue from drinks, snacks, souvenirs because those people stay in the park longer. Unless they know that people zip through their FP to get to the extra revenue.

 

[UNCgolf]

Tada!!!! That's the whole point! That's what will happen at WDW!!!

You seem to be under some assumption that just because Disney used to offer a FP system that was for "everyone," that the new system will be for "everyone." But things change.
Guess what -- Guests are no longer buying books of tickets anymore either.



Again --- That's the whole point! A $150-$300 FP wouldn't be aiming for a "high attach rate" -- It would be looking for adoption by a small percentage of guests!!!



Let's emphasize the KEY word. It WAS aiming for 100% attach rate. If they go with something more like the Universal model, they will be looking for a 5-10% attach rate.






Which is why the pandemic has given Disney the perfect opportunity to reset expectations. Current expectations is not "free FP" -- Current expectations is NO FP.

You may as well say, "Disney can't get rid of DME--- people expect it!" "Disney can't get rid of EMH -- people expect it!"
It's pretty obvious, Disney isn't making plans based on pre-2019 expectations.

It doesn't sound like Disney is going to offer anything like Universal Express Pass, though. It sounds like they'll be offering one time FastPasses for a handful of rides rather than something you can use on any ride as much as you want (or even on one ride as much as you want). The pricing for that will be interesting.

 

[flynnibus]

I think they did, if we go back far enough.

Hence the wording... 'established history' Customer base really doesn't have an attachment to it.

 

[flynnibus]

Seems like Disney wouldn't want a 100 % attach rate to their FP. More people waiting longer means more revenue from drinks, snacks, souvenirs because those people stay in the park longer. Unless they know that people zip through their FP to get to the extra revenue.

Nah - that's correct, but applying the wrong strategy. Disney wants lines for that very reason - extending your stay and not being expected to have more rides. (avoiding 'done by noon!' scenario). But don't lump 'FP use' to mean zero lines. Disney throttled your FP usage and wasn't available everywhere for everything... well, before the FP+ nonsense.

 

[Naplesgolfer]

Disney almost has to have FastPass in some form, paid or free. They just don't have the ride capacity to support the attendance. The board was sold Fastpass+ as "You don't have to build more rides just do this ,it's cheaper". No one knows what 2019 park levels would be like all standby. I bet it wouldn't make most people happy. Those 3 fast passes and rope drop were the relief from the pain for most guests. ( not speaking of the refresh crowd)

 

[flynnibus]

Tada!!!! That's the whole point! That's what will happen at WDW!!!

You seem to be under some assumption that just because Disney used to offer a FP system that was for "everyone," that the new system will be for "everyone." But things change.

No - I was addressing your point of approx: 'why some complaint wasn't happening' -- it has nothing to do with Disney, and everything to do with the actual product at UNI. Comparing response to FP expectations is simply wrong because they aren't the same. You are using the highlight of your mistake to show support for your conclusion. That's not how it works.

Your postulate on attach rate for a new program maybe correct - but the point above doesn't support that nor are the two even related. It was a garbage statement.

And I agree that a premium paid offer isn't aiming for the same attach rate as legacy FP - but thats not why there isn't an uproar about UNI's offer.

Let's emphasize the KEY word. It WAS aiming for 100% attach rate.

Yes, I choose my words for a reason.

 

[WDWTrojan]

Disney almost has to have FastPass in some form, paid or free. They just don't have the ride capacity to support the attendance. The board was sold Fastpass+ as "You don't have to build more rides just do this ,it's cheaper". No one knows what 2019 park levels would be like all standby. I bet it wouldn't make most people happy. Those 3 fast passes and rope drop were the relief from the pain for most guests. ( not speaking of the refresh crowd)

Bear in mind that they have made it clear they don’t really want to go back to 2019 #s. Chapek has been clear the guest experience is better when the parks aren’t wall to wall and they hit a limit of revenue generation as places can only serve so many people.

 

[Jedijax719]

If the new FP idea costs $100-$300 per person per day, how much would that really affect a ride line that would be 1 hour standby when the old FP system was in place?

Are we talking a 50% reduction in wait time? Maybe even 33% reduction in wait time?

And if the price is so high that there is a very small % of people using it (less than the old FP), then I'd think standby lines would probably be longer. Sure, they might move quicker, but they'd be quite a bit longer. Thus, they'd balance out and be the same length at best.

 

[Naplesgolfer]

Bear in mind that they have made it clear they don’t really want to go back to 2019 #s. Chapek has been clear the guest experience is better when the parks aren’t wall to wall and they hit a limit of revenue generation as places can only serve so many people.

I don't trust their restraint past a year or 2. So if Magic Phase 1 closed at 70,000 it's 63,000 now? Won't make all that much difference.

 

[havoc315]

It doesn't sound like Disney is going to offer anything like Universal Express Pass, though. It sounds like they'll be offering one time FastPasses for a handful of rides rather than something you can use on any ride as much as you want (or even on one ride as much as you want). The pricing for that will be interesting.

If Marni is right, that seems to be the case.
If "Lightning Pass" rumors are true...

I wonder if it's all up in the air still. Disney isn't big on keeping secrets until the last minute. They announced the discontinuation of EMH and replacement with Early Entry months and months in advance.
The plan was FP+ was announced more than a year before it was implemented.
Disney Genie was announced long ago and still hasn't come to fruition.

I suspect once Disney decides what they plan on doing, it will be announced as they continue to develop it.
This isn't going to be, "we have a whole new FP system and it starts next week" scenario.

And until they announce some thing, I'm guessing it's all still up in the air.

 

[havoc315]

No - I was addressing your point of approx: 'why some complaint wasn't happening' -- it has nothing to do with Disney, and everything to do with the actual product at UNI. Comparing response to FP expectations is simply wrong because they aren't the same. You are using the highlight of your mistake to show support for your conclusion. That's not how it works.

If they offer the exact same product, with the exact same expectations, exact same attachment rate, exact same pricing... Then guess what --- Then it is the same!

 

[Naplesgolfer]

If Marni is right, that seems to be the case.
If "Lightning Pass" rumors are true...

I wonder if it's all up in the air still. Disney isn't big on keeping secrets until the last minute. They announced the discontinuation of EMH and replacement with Early Entry months and months in advance.
The plan was FP+ was announced more than a year before it was implemented.
Disney Genie was announced long ago and still hasn't come to fruition.

I suspect once Disney decides what they plan on doing, it will be announced as they continue to develop it.
This isn't going to be, "we have a whole new FP system and it starts next week" scenario.

And until they announce some thing, I'm guessing it's all still up in the air.

Len Testa say's there is a big group developing and programing " Genie". He recently said they have ad's up to hire more.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

One aspect....a paid FP = more efficient park touring, and time is money.

By that I mean there's a trade-off. Suppose someone really wants to hit their 25 favorite rides (as a random number).

Without FP, covering those 25 rides takes maybe 4 days at a cost of $100/day. (again, random number)

With extra paid FP, each day costs $150, but the same park goer could perhaps cover their 25 favorite rides in just 3 days.

So while they are paying more per day, their time is more efficient.

The answer isn't just cost, but how each person values the each hour of time they have. Some employees can't take a full week of vacation all at once, so they'd happily make the most efficient use of every vacation minute.

It is a little like paying for a taxi over taking a free bus. The taxi costs extra but saves time.

 

[havoc315]

Len Testa say's there is a big group developing and programing " Genie". He recently said they have ad's up to hire more.

That's my point... Disney doesn't have a history of waiting for something to be fully developed and launch-ready before announcement.

Genie was announced over 2 years ago, IIRC.

And now they are getting busy actually programming it.

Next step, they will show off what features to expect -- But that will still be months before an actual full roll-out.

In other words... I don't expect any new system before the 10/1 anniversary. And truthfully, I doubt we see anything before early 2022.

 

[Naplesgolfer]

Does someone know the ride capacity per hour in each park ? If you add up the total ride capacity times the hours the park is open and then divide by the known attendance ( adjust for 10-15 % for some unknown number of re-rides)you will see Disney is boxed in by the math. The math determines what they can chose to do while maximizing revenue and not blowing up Park op's and driving guests away.