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Energy storage

Lensman

Premium Member
Original Poster
Right. That is why hydrogen is looked at as a type of battery, a way to store the energy which should be produced more cleanly. It's a very clean battery.
Nuclear power can be used to create hydrogen. Essentially creating a 100% clean loop that is nearly limitless.

Some routes can be driverless (sort of like monorails work but trackless) Some can be flex routes with human drivers to meet shifting demand. IE special events.
@MisterPenguin, @jt04, and @DisneyCane, I thought you'd be interested in this new energy storage project I recently read about:

This initiative will develop 1,000 megawatts of long-duration energy storage using four cutting-edge technologies:
* hydrogen
* compressed air energy storage
* large-scale flow batteries
* solid oxide fuel cells

The site is located adjacent to the Intermountain Power Project a nexus of power infrastructure including a soon-to-be-shuttered 2 GW coal-fired Intermountain Power Plant and nearby generation from 305 MW of wind and 600 MW of solar. Most critically, the IPP switchyard connects to the Path 27 500 kV high voltage DC line to Adelanto, CA capable of transmitting 2,400 MW to Los Angeles, Anaheim, Riverside, Pasadena, Glendale and Burbank.

AP article said:
Initially developing enough energy storage to completely serve the needs of 150,000 households for an entire year
I'm not sure if this figure is correct but, if true, it means that this project will store 150,000 x 10 MWh = 1,500 GWh of power which is 100 times the current amount of electricity storage currently deployed worldwide. This is enough to power all Los Angeles County residential customers for a month or all of Los Angeles County for a week.

They should really put an Alternate National Military Command Center nearby. In fact, we should all start thinking about buying a house out there and building a bomb shelter. Lol
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
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@MisterPenguin, @jt04, and @DisneyCane, I thought you'd be interested in this new energy storage project I recently read about:

This initiative will develop 1,000 megawatts of long-duration energy storage using four cutting-edge technologies:
* hydrogen
* compressed air energy storage
* large-scale flow batteries
* solid oxide fuel cells

The site is located adjacent to the Intermountain Power Project a nexus of power infrastructure including a soon-to-be-shuttered 2 GW coal-fired Intermountain Power Plant and nearby generation from 305 MW of wind and 600 MW of solar. Most critically, the IPP switchyard connects to the Path 27 500 kV high voltage DC line to Adelanto, CA capable of transmitting 2,400 MW to Los Angeles, Anaheim, Riverside, Pasadena, Glendale and Burbank.


I'm not sure if this figure is correct but, if true, it means that this project will store 150,000 x 10 MWh = 1,500 GWh of power which is 100 times the current amount of electricity storage currently deployed worldwide. This is enough to power all Los Angeles County residential customers for a month or all of Los Angeles County for a week.

They should really put an Alternate National Military Command Center nearby. In fact, we should all start thinking about buying a house out there and building a bomb shelter. Lol
Very interesting. Thanks for the links! I hope it works out because this is the type of innovation needed in order to realistically get to a 50% or more nationwide share of renewables in an economical manner.

I assume the quote about "serving the needs" doesn't mean actually storing all that energy. It probably means that the storage capacity will allow 150,000 homes to be powered by renewable energy 24/7/365.
 

Lensman

Premium Member
Original Poster
I've been doing some back-of-the-envelope calculations and some research.

The Chevron Phillips Clemens Terminal in Brazoria, TX, stores about a billion cubic feet of hydrogen in an underground salt cavern. This translates into between 5,000 and 20,000 GWh of electricity at efficiencies between 60% and 85% and pressures of between 100 bar and 200 bar. I don't think that facility operates at those pressures, but I haven't been able to find detailed information on it other than the cavern size.

Air Liquide has comissioned the construction of an even larger storage cavern in Beaumont, TX. They're going to use it to store 30 days of hydrogen that they produce from natural gas.

Anyway, the bottom line is that they seem to intend to use giant underground salt caverns to store enough hydrogen to provide 1,000 MW of power for 62 days. Whoa!
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
I've been doing some back-of-the-envelope calculations and some research.

The Chevron Phillips Clemens Terminal in Brazoria, TX, stores about a billion cubic feet of hydrogen in an underground salt cavern. This translates into between 5,000 and 20,000 GWh of electricity at efficiencies between 60% and 85% and pressures of between 100 bar and 200 bar. I don't think that facility operates at those pressures, but I haven't been able to find detailed information on it other than the cavern size.

Air Liquide has comissioned the construction of an even larger storage cavern in Beaumont, TX. They're going to use it to store 30 days of hydrogen that they produce from natural gas.

Anyway, the bottom line is that they seem to intend to use giant underground salt caverns to store enough hydrogen to provide 1,000 MW of power for 62 days. Whoa!
It is good to know (and thank you for doing the research) that all of this "alternative to battery" storage technology is being developed and deployed. Long term it will be extremely helpful for areas to purchase surplus renewable energy from other areas and store it. That way, if there is a lot of wind in the Midwest and they've already filled their storage, New York city can buy the surplus and store it, etc.

Storage is the key for wind and solar long term since the sun only shines during the day and the wind doesn't blow all of the time. Plus as a very long term (probably not in my lifetime) 100% renewable world, storage is a necessity for peak demand. Otherwise you would need many more solar panels or wind turbines and have them throw away their production except when it is needed for peaks.
 

Lensman

Premium Member
Original Poster
I found a more definitive article:

Some quotes:
article said:
MHPS, meanwhile, is looking to build facilities to convert renewable power from Western power markets into renewable hydrogen, which would then be combusted at a 600-MW JAC-series combined cycle power plant it plans to build with a partner above ground at ACES. ACES will also be outfitted to harness CAES stored at the caverns, and MHPS plans to supplement the facility with solid oxide fuel cells and large-scale flow batteries, to ensure it can store energy 24/7, 365-day and flexibly dispatch as much as 1,000 MW at grid-scale to balance variability from renewables that are increasingly flooding Western markets.
article said:
The size of the salt dome “means the amount of storage is virtually unlimited and ultimately constrained by the market demand and technologies that create the power,” the company said.
article said:
Browning on Thursday told POWER that the storage capacity would be 24-7. “So if you wanted to convert that to megawatt-hours, you would multiply that by 365 in 24 hours to turn 1,000 MW of capacity into how much storage there is,” he said. MHPS clarified that Browning “was giving an example of a technology that could provide a large amount of instantaneous power.” The 600-MW combined cycle plant powered by renewable hydrogen “could be larger and could provide the full 1,000 MW,”
Remarkably, the project overall is even more interesting and answers more questions than I thought. So the old IPP coal plant I referred to earlier is scheduled for decommissioning and was supposed to be replaced with a combined cycle gas turbine plant. I don't know whether that's still happening, or whether it's essentially been replaced by this project which will build a MHPS combined cycle gas turbine plant that will run off a combination of natural gas and hydrogen, with an eye toward eventually running on 100% hydrogen.

I don't know whether the turbines are built to only burn a fixed ratio or whether there is a range of gas mixtures it can handle, but at any rate it does provide an interesting future for combined cycle gas power plants - that they could be turned into part of a future energy storage infrastructure. This is pretty interesting given that they are currently the most economical baseload power generators in the United States and as of 2018 the largest, at 264 GW capacity.

Interesting stuff!
 
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