Electric Vehicle charging at Walt Disney World

[flynnibus]

My 15 year old civic still averages 35 mpg... and only cost about 17k. I don't think I need a volt/leaf

If I needed a high mpg commuter.. I'd probably buy a diesel. get 40+mph with no compromises.

 

[ford91exploder]

You are hitting on a topic that is near and dear to me so bear with me a little on this. First, on the impact of de-regulation: Your electric bill consists of charges for the commodity electricity and the line charges for delivering the power. The line charges are still coming from a regulated utility and are based on approval of the public utility commission. Nothing changed with line charges in deregulation. The commodity electricity can now be purchased from other suppliers besides the legacy monopoly utility. De-regulation also means that wholesale electricity is now produced by independent producers instead of from plants owned and operated by the monopoly utility. When you say power is $0.22 per KW that must be the all in delivered price not just the commodity. You can buy electricity from a supplier for as little as $0.08 per KW. It's hard to quantify whether de-regulation itself resulted in higher prices. Prices are higher now than before de-regulation but you would have to look at the cost of the fuel used to generate the electricity. New England is pretty heavily dependent on natural gas as fuel for power plants. Before de-regulation CT had a number of old, dirty coal and oil burning power plants which produced cheap electricity and tons of pollution which were affectionately known as the sooty six. Through efforts of environmental groups and local politicians the sooty six have all been either shut down completely or repowered with nat gas. This was a huge win for your lungs but a big hit in your wallet. Your friends out in CA know all about the cost of having clean, environmentally friendly power. My point is that if we kept the monopoly utility model and shuttered the same plants would electricity prices have gone up? The answer is most definitely yes. So while it's easy to blame de-regulation for higher prices you have to see the complete story to understand why prices are up. In a simple example lets say you have an Exxon station down the street from you and you are paying $4 a gallon for gas. The station closes and six months later reopens as a Shell station and is charging $3.50 a gallon for gas. Through simple observation you could conclude that Shell gasoline is much cheaper than Exxon. However, in those 6 months the price of crude oil dropped significantly worldwide. Without that extra information your original conclusion would not be correct.

Yes power prices would have gone up regardless however when the generating assets were sold to investors new debt was created and the investors need to make a profit as well, So if we had not deregulated power prices would probably increased 50-75% instead of the current 100-200% increase.

No question the 'sooty six' needed to go bye-bye (I have relatives in area so I am familiar with them) but they also could have been refitted with advanced scrubbers which would have reduced pollution levels to par with gas fired plants which are cheap to build but expensive to operate especially now since NG is now $36 per million therms right now in the ISO NE system.

With a regulated utility long term economic viability for state is the deciding factor yes a advanced coal or nuclear plant might be 10x the initial cost of a gas fired plant but power prices will be predictable over the lifetime of plant.

With the current Wall St investor model it's how do I make a quick buck at the expense of everyone else, for an extreme example ENRON manipulating closures so SPOT CA electricity price was up to SIXTY FIVE CENTS/KWH

Wall St got the gold mine Industry and consumers got the shaft.

 

[ford91exploder]

My 15 year old civic still averages 35 mpg... and only cost about 17k. I don't think I need a volt/leaf

If I needed a high mpg commuter.. I'd probably buy a diesel. get 40+mph with no compromises.

My DIesel Rabbit first car I bought when I got out of school got 50 MPG all the time, It rusted out or I would STILL have it.

 

[GoofGoof]

From this months electric bill I am paying 28 cents per KWH delivered with 18 cents being facilities charge so 10 cents per Kwh for electricity only, As to shopping our state does not have competitive suppliers for residential customers so we get stuck with whatever the PUC authorizes (ie who pays biggest bribe).

It's almost at the point where running my Natural Gas generator makes more sense than buying from the grid but even in the country neighbors would hate me as it's an industrial Kohler 20RZ.

The Leaf will only achieve those mileage ratings when in a temperate climate, If you need to engage either the heating or air conditioning systems range will drop by 1/2 to 2/3'rds, Friend of mine has a Leaf in Dallas and range is about 35 miles on a full charge when he needs A/C.

Ouch. $0.18 for delivery charges is steep. I pay about $0.07 in PA. Where do you live? On an island off of Maine or somewhere really remote? I was thinking more like CT or MA rates which are deregulated markets with retail choice.

 

[GoofGoof]

Yes power prices would have gone up regardless however when the generating assets were sold to investors new debt was created and the investors need to make a profit as well, So if we had not deregulated power prices would probably increased 50-75% instead of the current 100-200% increase.

No question the 'sooty six' needed to go bye-bye (I have relatives in area so I am familiar with them) but they also could have been refitted with advanced scrubbers which would have reduced pollution levels to par with gas fired plants which are cheap to build but expensive to operate especially now since NG is now $36 per million therms right now in the ISO NE system.

With a regulated utility long term economic viability for state is the deciding factor yes a advanced coal or nuclear plant might be 10x the initial cost of a gas fired plant but power prices will be predictable over the lifetime of plant.

With the current Wall St investor model it's how do I make a quick buck at the expense of everyone else, for an extreme example ENRON manipulating closures so SPOT CA electricity price was up to SIXTY FIVE CENTS/KWH

Wall St got the gold mine Industry and consumers got the shaft.

There are efficiencies to be gained from not having a regulated utility involved in the development and construction of new power plants. In the utility model all cost overruns go directly back to the rate payers so there is no incentive to be efficient or save money. Now if a merchant energy producer builds a new plant and there is a cost overrun they eat the extra costs and their shareholders, not the ratepayers suffer. To bring it back to Disney it's like WDI being the sole source of developing and building new attractions. If you opened the process up to other players they could have built FLE for half what Disney spent. Trust me, the utility mentality is not conducive to innovation or change. The monopoly utilities were dinosaurs that were filled with complacentcy and in a lot of cases political corruption. Lots of people just punching a time clock waiting for their pensions to vest to retire. Since they were pseudo government agencies politics often got in the way of good business decisions.

 

[GoofGoof]

My 15 year old civic still averages 35 mpg... and only cost about 17k. I don't think I need a volt/leaf

If I needed a high mpg commuter.. I'd probably buy a diesel. get 40+mph with no compromises.

I drive an 11 year old accord which gets about 27 mpg and has 255,000 miles on it. I am not jumping in and buying an electric vehicle yet either, but the costs are starting to come in line with a standard sedan and more and more people are concerned about being greener. They are no longer just toys for the rich.

 

[flynnibus]

I drive an 11 year old accord which gets about 27 mpg and has 255,000 miles on it. I am not jumping in and buying an electric vehicle yet either, but the costs are starting to come in line with a standard sedan and more and more people are concerned about being greener. They are no longer just toys for the rich.

They are still 'feel good' cars unless you are at the high end like fiske or tesla.

I'm still a firm believer that the way to change the chicken and egg stalemate is to stop trying to build the 'omni-car' first... but rather build out the infrastructure for a specific application and build cars for that application.

Like specific commuter cities/targets... and commuter vehicles that kick @Q$% for that. Yes, not everyone has more than one car... but that is also in large part because we try to build cars that do 'everything'. Specialized applications would be cheaper.. making them more accessible.

Once you hit critical mass on those commuter veins... then other applications will pick up and become more viable because the infrastructure is already built out.

It works for things like transportation systems that can move to CNG because they don't need to build for 'every possible scenaro' but build for their specific targeted areas. Rinse.. lather.. repeat

 

[Virtual Toad]

My 15 year old civic still averages 35 mpg... and only cost about 17k. I don't think I need a volt/leaf

If I needed a high mpg commuter.. I'd probably buy a diesel. get 40+mph with no compromises.

It's not easy to give up a Honda. Loved my old 5-speed Civic back in the day, and even had a mini moment of panic and remorse when I sold my 14-year old CR-V, though with major engine repairs on the horizon it was time to move on. But after driving the Volt, my wife's Accord (previously the quiet car in the house) feels like a belching, lurching beast and the CR-V felt a lot like riding in one of the safari vehicles at AK. With the Volt (even on the highway with the gas engine running), I can chat quietly with my sons in the back seat and I can actually arrive at my destination feeling refreshed. EV mode is an absolute dream and I like that I have the ability to choose which mode to drive in. I've never been left needing more acceleration (a must along US19 here in Pinellas) and it's plenty roomy enough for our family of 4.

I did test drive a new CR-V prior to buying the Volt and it just felt... uninspired. The interior felt cheaper than my 1999 CR-V and it just seemed like it didn't offer anything "new."

BTW, not judging, genuinely curious, what compromises do you think you would have to make with a Volt?

 

[flynnibus]

It's not easy to give up a Honda.

They finally turned my wife off after our Odyssey had so many transmission failures. Her family owned nothing but honda/acura for 30+ years and now they've splintered The van was our 5th honda.. the civic has out lived it (but mainly because it sat for years w/o much driving. It's 15 years old and only has about 72k on it )

I've never been left needing more acceleration (a must along US19 here in Pinellas) and it's plenty roomy enough for our family of 4.

I did test drive a new CR-V prior to buying the Volt and it just felt... uninspired. The interior felt cheaper than my 1999 CR-V and it just seemed like it didn't offer anything "new."

Honda has gone bland in the interior options and tech options. Not that you need flashy, but the range of capabilities is subpar. As for needing my acceleration... well my daily driver has 410+ HP.. I'm used to a little more than the volt

The civic is the winter beater and will be the car my kids learn to drive in.

BTW, not judging, genuinely curious, what compromises do you think you would have to make with a Volt?

1) The ROI is weak.. even with subsidies. 5-7 years is not great deal.. that means for most people they might break even before they sell the car.
2) looks/styling - the volt is ugly as are most of chevy's thoughts on a mid-size sedan
3) I don't need a mid-sized car in my stable

I have my sports car, my wife's truck, and my civic winter beater.

The only car the volt could even contend for is the civic winter beater... and why would I buy a 30+k car for my beater?

 

[GoofGoof]

They are still 'feel good' cars unless you are at the high end like fiske or tesla.

I'm still a firm believer that the way to change the chicken and egg stalemate is to stop trying to build the 'omni-car' first... but rather build out the infrastructure for a specific application and build cars for that application.

Like specific commuter cities/targets... and commuter vehicles that kick @Q$% for that. Yes, not everyone has more than one car... but that is also in large part because we try to build cars that do 'everything'. Specialized applications would be cheaper.. making them more accessible.

Once you hit critical mass on those commuter veins... then other applications will pick up and become more viable because the infrastructure is already built out.

It works for things like transportation systems that can move to CNG because they don't need to build for 'every possible scenaro' but build for their specific targeted areas. Rinse.. lather.. repeat

This is exactly the model currently being employed. There are certain cities and areas that are ripe for these cars. For instance Nissan partnered with EVGo in the Houston/Dallas/Austin triangle. At first glance it seems insane to target big oil in their home town and we all know how Texans love their big trucks, but these are large cities with virtually no mass transit. Everyone drives to work and a lot of people park in garages. Many people have a 2nd commuter car that is just used to get to and from work. It's easy to offer chargers in parking garages for people to charge while they are at work. With EVGo they are planning a network of Freedom charging stations which will allow Leaf owners (and most other electric cars too) the ability to travel anywhere between and around these 3 large cities without range anxiety. The network of chargers are being built through partnerships with local supermarket chains and stores like Walgreens and Best Buy. You can quick charge the car at one of these locations. CA is another market where the stations are being built out first. Once the urban centers are targeted and there is enough demand the infrastructure will expand to smaller towns. This combined with battery efficiency which is improving each year will allow for the electric car to become a part of mainstream America.

 

[flynnibus]

This is exactly the model currently being employed [...]

In a splintered way.. what you describe is what I've been advocating as the solution.. it just has not been done in a wholistic approach.

Example this very thread... people saying they want EV chargers at WDW of all places as a way of advancing the industry. Balony.. Put that effort instead into the employee side of WDW and the commuter veins of the area.

I'm not saying my vision isn't being used in real world.. I just think it's not being done in a concerted enough way to reach critical mass. Look at the car industry.. every single car is getting bigger and bigger. The C-segment in the US is minute... and the social acceptance of commuter vehicles is still largely missing. Cars like the SmartCar are ridiculed because they see it not as full sized car - it never wanted to be! It shouldn't have to deal with tractor trailers if it were put in a motorcycle/HOV lane, etc.

It's my personal opinion... that the road to electrical dominate will come with the idea of specialized vehicles and acceptance of those in major urban areas.

 

[GoofGoof]

In a splintered way.. what you describe is what I've been advocating as the solution.. it just has not been done in a wholistic approach.

Example this very thread... people saying they want EV chargers at WDW of all places as a way of advancing the industry. Balony.. Put that effort instead into the employee side of WDW and the commuter veins of the area.

I'm not saying my vision isn't being used in real world.. I just think it's not being done in a concerted enough way to reach critical mass. Look at the car industry.. every single car is getting bigger and bigger. The C-segment in the US is minute... and the social acceptance of commuter vehicles is still largely missing. Cars like the SmartCar are ridiculed because they see it not as full sized car - it never wanted to be! It shouldn't have to deal with tractor trailers if it were put in a motorcycle/HOV lane, etc.

It's my personal opinion... that the road to electrical dominate will come with the idea of specialized vehicles and acceptance of those in major urban areas.

That makes sense. It's largely about changing people's minds about electric cars and breaking down the stereotypes that exist. I think having electric cars available to rent caters to the "feel good" people, but it is also an advertising tool. If someone tries an electric car on a whim on vacation and likes it they might go back home and consider buying one. It's like an extended test drive. This approach has limited potential since I think most people would be too concerned with the extra effort needed to charge the car.

To your point on targeting the employees I think that's the way to go. I work at a company that offers free charging plus a match to the tax incentive as a way to encourage employees to go electric. We have 3 chargers right now which are almost always full as I think we are up to about a dozen electric vehicle drivers. I know companies like Google are running similar programs. If the owners of the charging stations partner with companies it's a good path to adding drivers and in a lot of cases have a partner to share the cost. For companies that generate electricity the electric car has as much or more potential to revolutionize demand as air conditioning did back in the day. There is much to be gained so it makes sense for them to want to encourage as many people to go electric as they can. Oh yeah, it's green too.

 

[OppChg]

Put that effort instead into the employee side of WDW and the commuter veins of the area.

I agree with this statement 100%.

Or to use an analogy, "public" charging (like for customer as WDW) is the top stone of a pyramid, with the base being charging at home (mostly regualt ourlets). AFter this base, The Workplace Charging is that 2nd largest middle section. That's where greater priority and resources should go over public Level 2 charging, fast charging, etc.

But unlike a real pyramid, all sections can and should be "built" out simulataneously to accelerate adopter and consumer exposure and acceptance. And Disney has now PUBLICLY indicated it is a partner of the Drive Electric Orlando initiative. So what does that mean?

All we are asking is that they put their "money" where there mouth is, otherwise it's just a cheap shot at greenwashing without having to spend a dime or make any effort at all really.

PS ford91exploder: My Volt goes 40 to 50+ miles on ~13kWh of electricity year round in New England...That's like paying $1.30 a gallon for gas @ 25 mpg (at my ~18 cents a kWh). Your "100 kWh" calculations are wacky.

 

[GoofGoof]

I agree with this statement 100%.

Or to use an analogy, "public" charging (like for customer as WDW) is the top stone of a pyramid, with the base being charging at home (mostly regualt ourlets). AFter this base, The Workplace Charging is that 2nd largest middle section. That's where greater priority and resources should go over public Level 2 charging, fast charging, etc.

But unlike a real pyramid, all sections can and should be "built" out simulataneously to accelerate adopter and consumer exposure and acceptance. And Disney has now PUBLICLY indicated it is a partner of the Drive Electric Orlando initiative. So what does that mean?

All we are asking is that they put their "money" where there mouth is, otherwise it's just a cheap shot at greenwashing without having to spend a dime or make any efforty.

PS ford91exploder: My Volt goes 40-50+ miles on ~13kWh of electricity year round in New England...That's like paying $1.30 a gallon for gas @ 25 mpg (at my ~18 cents a kWh). Your "100 kWh" calculations are whack.

In typical TDO fashion they are waiting for someone to offer to install the chargers for free. They are much better at putting someone else's money where their mouth is. It will probably happen soon too. Tens of millions of people funnel through the gates of WDW every year that's a sweet honeypot of free advertising. I wouldn't be surprised if someone agreed to pay Disney for the right to install chargers at WDW and give the power away for free.

 

[Virtual Toad]

They finally turned my wife off after our Odyssey had so many transmission failures. Her family owned nothing but honda/acura for 30+ years and now they've splintered The van was our 5th honda.. the civic has out lived it (but mainly because it sat for years w/o much driving. It's 15 years old and only has about 72k on it )



Honda has gone bland in the interior options and tech options. Not that you need flashy, but the range of capabilities is subpar. As for needing my acceleration... well my daily driver has 410+ HP.. I'm used to a little more than the volt

The civic is the winter beater and will be the car my kids learn to drive in.



1) The ROI is weak.. even with subsidies. 5-7 years is not great deal.. that means for most people they might break even before they sell the car.
2) looks/styling - the volt is ugly as are most of chevy's thoughts on a mid-size sedan
3) I don't need a mid-sized car in my stable

I have my sports car, my wife's truck, and my civic winter beater.

The only car the volt could even contend for is the civic winter beater... and why would I buy a 30+k car for my beater?

Car buying is an insanely personal thing, and a lot of it comes down to commuting habits, budget and timing. We'd pretty much decided on another CR-V until we entered the test drive phase. Honda using Michael Bolton in their commercials pretty much sums up the excitement factor of owning a new Honda right now

As a tech guy, you'd probably enjoy driving the Volt, at least from an engineering perspective.

 

[ford91exploder]

Ouch. $0.18 for delivery charges is steep. I pay about $0.07 in PA. Where do you live? On an island off of Maine or somewhere really remote? I was thinking more like CT or MA rates which are deregulated markets with retail choice.

No central NH, NH has the highest energy rates in the nation, part of that was NH Yankee went bankrupt due to mismanagement and the bankruptcy court built ALL the investor losses into a 'Stranded Facilities Charge' which was good for 50 years - we only have 30 to go to pay that sucker off. that accounts for about a third of the delivery charge.

You were saying how investor operated generation is the most economical... Oh by the way NH gets none of the cheap nuclear power MA/CT gets it all... We get the emergency management costs etc but none of the benefits.

 

[flynnibus]

As a tech guy, you'd probably enjoy driving the Volt, at least from an engineering perspective.

Yeah, my other IT friends geek over their Prius' and other toys. A coworker overseas got the Tesla S which looks neat.

Personally.. I like the thundering herd of my 5.0 coyote motor more Plus, Ford Sync (not my ford touch) has got to be the best voice/media/nav integration I've used yet. Too bad Ford went and screwed it up.. the generation in my pony is near perfect IMO.

 

[ford91exploder]

I agree with this statement 100%.

Or to use an analogy, "public" charging (like for customer as WDW) is the top stone of a pyramid, with the base being charging at home (mostly regualt ourlets). AFter this base, The Workplace Charging is that 2nd largest middle section. That's where greater priority and resources should go over public Level 2 charging, fast charging, etc.

But unlike a real pyramid, all sections can and should be "built" out simulataneously to accelerate adopter and consumer exposure and acceptance. And Disney has now PUBLICLY indicated it is a partner of the Drive Electric Orlando initiative. So what does that mean?

All we are asking is that they put their "money" where there mouth is, otherwise it's just a cheap shot at greenwashing without having to spend a dime or make any effort at all really.

PS ford91exploder: My Volt goes 40 to 50+ miles on ~13kWh of electricity year round in New England...That's like paying $1.30 a gallon for gas @ 25 mpg (at my ~18 cents a kWh). Your "100 kWh" calculations are wacky.

Unless you have a perpetual motion machine attached the physics do not work, Gallon of gas has 33KWH of energy, And I work with a LOT of people who have Nissan Leaf and Tesla Roadsters and even in the SF Bay area the LEAF is only good for 35-40 miles on a full charge during summer. Our Tesla people say they use 50 KWh one way and with a 75KWH battery in the roadster and thats about a 45 mile trip with AC.

I know you like your car but without an electrical subsidy which NH residents do not get for ANYTHING it's not going to work.

 

[ford91exploder]

Yeah, my other IT friends geek over their Prius' and other toys. A coworker overseas got the Tesla S which looks neat.

Personally.. I like the thundering herd of my 5.0 coyote motor more Plus, Ford Sync (not my ford touch) has got to be the best voice/media/nav integration I've used yet. Too bad Ford went and screwed it up.. the generation in my pony is near perfect IMO.

I'd have to agree on the 5.0 motor in the pony car is far more fun, But the Escape hybrid with 4x4 and 32 MPG average is not bad when you have unplowed roads and you NEED to be somewhere not a lot of FUN bu VERY practical.

The diesel in the F250 is not bad either press down on accelerator and road moves back... there is no substitute for torque and displacement.

 

[DManRightHere]

Solar is very close to reality in CA at DLR. The market is ripe for a major solar installation. In Florida it's a little less appealing. Florida is still a fully regulated market so the monopoly utilities have no incentive to push solar. The price of electricity in the Southeast is still relatively low due to coal and nuclear plants and the close proximity to the gulf to buy cheap nat gas. If WDW was to make a big splash in solar it would probably be more like one of the NFL solar deals where a 3rd party comes in and installs and owns the panels and WDW just enters a long term agreement to buy the power produced from them. Then there is no maintenance or upkeep and you have a locked in cost for green power. They could most likely get a "market friendly" deal like the NFL teams who installed solar at their stadiums did since it also becomes a great source of free advertising for the energy company that installs and owns the panels. Could be a package deal where they sign on as an advertiser, maybe a new sponsor for an EPCOT pavilion or electric cars for the Speedway.

Solar powered electric speedway cars! Yes! I can see this visually appealing for tomorrowland as well.