Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Next Big Thing]

Eddie asked earlier about futurism. I'd like to see Disney really push the envelope. Forget Asimo. How about a synthetic, bipedal robot with realistic facial features and, oh yeah, realistic enough movements to dance on stage?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcZJqiUrbnI

Others are doing it - why couldn't Disney be the theme park leader in this kind of thing?

Damn, that is cool! I'd love to see something like that at a Disney park!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie asked earlier about futurism. I'd like to see Disney really push the envelope. Forget Asimo. How about a synthetic, bipedal robot with realistic facial features and, oh yeah, realistic enough movements to dance on stage?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcZJqiUrbnI

Others are doing it - why couldn't Disney be the theme park leader in this kind of thing?

WOW! AGREE! Now that's Furby-san! Or even something like this video. Check this anime concert out. That is what Coke Terrace needs to be. To me Tomorrowland 2030 is open in Japan right now. Tokyo Is one big Tomorrowland. T'land can be so cool. The "ElecTronica" thing in DCA hints at the energy of what Tomorrowland should and could be. Toss in the Japanese robots and virtual concerts and it's pretty compelling. Why the Tron overlay is over in DCA is beyond me when they have a huge DOA Tomorrowland with excess capacity in DL right now. Thanks for the great post Kevin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYn2-vVsI8U

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Admittedly, I haven't read through the whole thread (and I apologize if you've already discussed this), but I was wondering if you can comment on WDI's thoughts/concerns/approach to the strollers and motorized carts. I know it's a continual heated topic on these boards (the increased use) and I know that at times, internal Disney discussions have considered the need to widen choke points and improve traffic flow.

Is this the kind of situation where WDI has just shrugged its shoulders and said "It's not going away, but there's not much we can do about it" or is there any hope that people can be weened off these devices?

I'm not involved in the day to day stuff like that so I don't know the current plan if there is one. I can say that I was one of the few people to see the Segway when it was in development and test it for WDI. It was still top secret, only known as "Fred and Ginger". We rode them at the inventor's home and were impressed. The inventor, Dean Kamen wanted to have it be a mode of transport for EPCOT on a big scale and we advised against it for the reasons you cite. It was better as a demonstration, than a thousand or more of them in the crowds and parked in front of the shows. Motorized chairs are a hazard to some and they are hard to design for. DL is hardest because it has the most pinch points.

 

[DisneyMusician2]

Eddie, we've all been keeping such careful track of the expansions in MK and the rumors, but is Disney going to do something truly innovative at the parks? I feel like the expansion looks great, but the technology is nothing new.

Disney used to be about cutting edge, and it has been until recently. 'Cutting edge' seems to mean all video screens now. DO you see some newer tech coming down the pike?

 

[COProgressFan]

Eddie, we've all been keeping such careful track of the expansions in MK and the rumors, but is Disney going to do something truly innovative at the parks? I feel like the expansion looks great, but the technology is nothing new.

Disney used to be about cutting edge, and it has been until recently. 'Cutting edge' seems to mean all video screens now. DO you see some newer tech coming down the pike?

Good question -- I agree that the new expansion looks nice enough, but I wonder if there will be anything that makes guests really think -- "Wow, that was amazing!" or "How did they do that!" such as a major effect, or ride system, etc. Disney seems to give us exactly what people seem to expect (omnimover, etc.) rather than exceeding expectations. I suppose it all comes down to cost. But can you imagine the reaction to Mermaid if it had a trackless system a la Tokyo's Pooh?

 

[Fable McCloud]

The thing they need is people in awe, not seeing what they expect.

When HM first started, people were still grasping how they made the ghosts. Even though I know how stuff is done...I'm still in awe.

Give us some more of that Disney!!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The thing they need is people in awe, not seeing what they expect.

When HM first started, people were still grasping how they made the ghosts. Even though I know how stuff is done...I'm still in awe.

Give us some more of that Disney!!

We all want more and rightly so. But here is some perspective, if I may.

The audience of 1969 was not force fed a flood of effects driven movies and 3D cartoons to raise their expectations. The guest of today expects things to just happen as seen in those movies. It is truly harder to exceed expectations as they are set impossibly high. The movies have pretty much made anything look possible and in 3D. Their attraction counterparts cannot replicate those sensations as gravity and building codes prevent most invasive thrills. You can't get too loud, too violent in motion, too scary, too anything as someone will sue you. I know this sounds like a weak excuse, but there is some truth to this.

Having said that, "awe" is another thing entirely. As an experiential designer, I'm addicted to finding the kinds of technologies and even simple tricks that will take an audience to that emotion. No matter what happens it is still my mission (because it is what drives me personally). I try not to take on projects that are derivative. There has to be something "breakthrough" about them at some level. Something for me to learn. Most Imagineers are this way. I'm always creatively restless.

Usually, it is the mastery of many technologies and sensory elements (environment, story, music, technology, ride vehicle, sensory effects, color, etc) in such a close harmony that the result is the cumulative "wow". Indy has the MB vehicle in tight harmony with the environment and effects. the vehicle was the key technology. If you are conscious of all of these things and use them like a "conductor of an orchestra", then you might have something. It's all in the tuning and knowing which instrument pushes which emotional "button". Today, I find that all too often we sense no musical "rests", it's a glut of visuals with little pause for emphasis or to build to a climax (the minute of dark tunnel in POTC that powerfully reveals the Pirate Ship is a good example of a visual "rest"). The conductor is key to extracting emotional value from emphasizing each instrument they control in moderation and knowing where they want to take you. Each element does not have to be a wow or that unique, but the sum of them does.

But there are "real world" pitfalls too that contradict or distract from your show. Visual "Hecklers" in the audience. An illuminated EXIT sign in the middle of it all, six pages of legal warnings on a western "wanted" poster, wading through a sea of strollers, having the narrator pause to tell the whole story again in spanish, a sponsor message that distracts from the theme, or a modern elevator with a ramp in a period setting...etc. could topple that "moment" you are building up to to if you are not careful. (Just a few examples of "must haves" that can break the thematic "spell").

To me, (and most Imagineers) "doing the impossible" is what you live for.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, we've all been keeping such careful track of the expansions in MK and the rumors, but is Disney going to do something truly innovative at the parks? I feel like the expansion looks great, but the technology is nothing new.

Disney used to be about cutting edge, and it has been until recently. 'Cutting edge' seems to mean all video screens now. DO you see some newer tech coming down the pike?

Every day there is something new and WDI has invested heavily in these kinds of things. The HM has been updated with new effects to improve some of the old illusions, but i know you are looking for the bigger impact kind of breakthroughs. they are out there for sure, but it's finding the right application for them that takes time. Some of them are not durable to operate all day, or for example, the "3D without glasses" illusions cannot be viewed from all angles, so they are limited in one way or another. The "Next Gen" program is one way they are layering in technology. I'm not sure what they will employ, but they are aware of the latest stuff as they invent some of it. It's never enough to just repeat yourself or just do something "average". It's funny that Michael Eisner used to say that alot. He'd look at something and say it's "just average" and ask "where is the wow?" (he asked this on Disneyland Paris, so we gave it to him). We all want the next "wow".

You asked what I have seen, and the areas that interest me are virtual characters that can be represented in full dimension in the real world. The anime concert video I posted in the response to Kevin Yee interests me and so does his dancing robot. I think it's a starting point to something great. Imagine being able to do a character parade where they didn't look like rubberheads, but looked real in 3D and performed on their floats. If you saw Peter Pan flying over his float that would be magic.

 

[DisneyMusician2]

Every day there is something new and WDI has invested heavily in these kinds of things. It's finding the right application for them that takes time. The "Next Gen" program is one way of addressing this. I'm not sure what they will employ, but I can assure you they are aware of the latest stuff as they invent some of it. It's never enough to just repeat yourself or just do something average. It's funny that Michael Eisner used to say that alot. He'd look at something and say it's just average and ask "where is the wow?" (he asked this on Disneyland Paris, so we gave it to him). We all want the "wow".

The last "Wow" I experienced was my first Soarin' trip, but that wasn't really an attraction designed for the Orlando parks. The Yeti used to be amazing, but we all know where that has gone.

The much discussed trackless ride system would really be something to see, though. Until I see the finished product in the expansion I can't comment on the level of effects and storytelling, but I remain optimistic it will be at least solid if not "Wow".

 

[HMF]

To me, (and most Imagineers) "doing the impossible" is what you live for.

"It's kind of fun to do the impossible" -Walt Disney

 

[RandySavage]

On my last trip to a Disney park, the thing that left the biggest impression on me was Maharajah Jungle Trek. I was blown away by the "place-making" detail. Now that I think about it, what I find most compelling is this kind of environmental transportation - such as the queue at Indiana Jones Adventure or standing in the middle of Mysterious Island at DisneySea.

Eddie makes a strong point about the rapid advances in quick mediums like film, video games, etc., can leave a theme park company (that have to construct physical buildings) in the dust.

The good news is that environmental experiences are relatively low-tech - and it's a niche that Disney can continue to dominate (not many other companies have the funding or artistic/technical expertise to create huge mountains of realistic rockwork). In this way, Disney is remains the leader in Virtual Reality. I think we are still many, many decades away from a technological way of fooling the mind that we are exploring the jungles of India (think Star Trek Holodeck). Until such a (distant) time, building it the old-fashioned way will remain the most compelling VR experience.

To dovetail these two topics (creating wow-factor & Fantasyland expansion), I think this is where the new Magic Kingdom expansion has an opportunity to bring that wow-factor: not necessarily in the technological advancements of the rides, but by applying layers & layers of minute and beautiful detail in the landscaping, the water features, the rockwork, the architecture... to make a visitor feel that they have stepped into the world of fairy tales.

For an exec to establish long term value (earn repeat visitation), raising the bar on the great Fantasylands in Anaheim & Paris through the creation of a "Fantasy Forest" outside the castle walls - this seems like a refreshingly far-sighted and intelligent move on Disney's part.

 

[ChrisFL]

Tokyo is Tomorrowland....agreed 100%. It's one thng to talk about stuff in Tokyo being much better/cooler/more advanced than here in the U.S...but then you visit there and some things are just INSANE. The parking garages that take your car automatically from the ground floor and place them up high for parking. The robots that do all kinds of stuff.

I always found it ironic that Disney let Epcot fall so far behind the message of technology, just when the rest of the world was starting to really grab hold of it. Being a technology geek is so commonplace now vs. 1982 it's not even funny.

I've said it before on these boards that Disney really should focus on Epcot having more things like CES and E3 type conventions, Epcot should still be synonomous with all things cutting-edge to play with. Yes, it takes work, yes it takes replacing minor exhibits more often than Disney is ever used to. I mean, a group of PS2 games to play... 2-3 years after the PS3 comes out?? What's cutting edge about that? :fork:

I'm a big fan of Dean Kamen and am a bit surprised that more of his inventions aren't showcased besides the Segway. I fully realize why Disney didn't want the average guest to have them, but I think they've made good use in the parking areas, early morning tours and for management to use.

 

[ChrisFL]

We all want more and rightly so. But here is some perspective, if I may.

The audience of 1969 was not force fed a flood of effects driven movies and 3D cartoons to raise their expectations. The guest of today expects things to just happen as seen in those movies. It is truly harder to exceed expectations as they are set impossibly high. The movies have pretty much made anything look possible and in 3D. Their attraction counterparts cannot replicate those sensations as gravity and building codes prevent most invasive thrills. You can't get too loud, too violent in motion, too scary, too anything as someone will sue you. I know this sounds like a weak excuse, but there is some truth to this.

Having said that, "awe" is another thing entirely. As an experiential designer, I'm addicted to finding the kinds of technologies and even simple tricks that will take an audience to that emotion. No matter what happens it is still my mission (because it is what drives me personally). I try not to take on projects that are derivative. There has to be something "breakthrough" about them at some level. Something for me to learn. Most Imagineers are this way. I'm always creatively restless.

Usually, it is the mastery of many technologies and sensory elements (environment, story, music, technology, ride vehicle, sensory effects, color, etc) in such a close harmony that the result is the cumulative "wow". Indy has the MB vehicle in tight harmony with the environment and effects. the vehicle was the key technology. If you are conscious of all of these things and use them like a "conductor of an orchestra", then you might have something. It's all in the tuning and knowing which instrument pushes which emotional "button". Today, I find that all too often we sense no musical "rests", it's a glut of visuals with little pause for emphasis or to build to a climax (the minute of dark tunnel in POTC that powerfully reveals the Pirate Ship is a good example of a visual "rest"). The conductor is key to extracting emotional value from emphasizing each instrument they control in moderation and knowing where they want to take you. Each element does not have to be a wow or that unique, but the sum of them does.

But there are "real world" pitfalls too that contradict or distract from your show. Visual "Hecklers" in the audience. An illuminated EXIT sign in the middle of it all, six pages of legal warnings on a western "wanted" poster, wading through a sea of strollers, having the narrator pause to tell the whole story again in spanish, a sponsor message that distracts from the theme, or a modern elevator with a ramp in a period setting...etc. could topple that "moment" you are building up to to if you are not careful. (Just a few examples of "must haves" that can break the thematic "spell").

To me, (and most Imagineers) "doing the impossible" is what you live for.

Great post. I believe it's easy to compare theme park attractions to movies in this sense...what we get in modern movies vs. what we got in classic movies is similar to what people think they want in theme parks.

Take a look at reviews of older movies, often you'll hear people complain about "slow pacing" and "a long, drawn out story". For better or for worse, our instant gratification comes at a price, we can't focus on one thing for too long. We're all getting attention deficit disorder if we don't get something right away.

Having said that, I agree about elements of causing "awe" can be quite a big variety. Every person might have unique ideas about what gives them that feeling.

I get that feeling in the oddest of places and times. What bothers me is when I try to think of a recent attraction that awed me...I think of Universal Studios...the Mummy ride. Why? The flame effect on the ceiling directly above you.

Sure that's only one tiny part of a big budget roller coaster/dark ride, but it's ONE element I remember most fondly, for it's sheer craziness. Without that element, I wouldn't be as happy with the ride.

That's not to say that recent Disney attractions haven't "wowed" me, but I'm not really finding any at WDW that I can think of.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Waxing on about nature.

Take a look at reviews of older movies, often you'll hear people complain about "slow pacing" and "a long, drawn out story". For better or for worse, our instant gratification comes at a price, we can't focus on one thing for too long. We're all getting attention deficit disorder if we don't get something right away.

Having said that, I agree about elements of causing "awe" can be quite a big variety. Every person might have unique ideas about what gives them that feeling.

I get that feeling in the oddest of places and times. What bothers me is when I try to think of a recent attraction that awed me...I think of Universal Studios...the Mummy ride. Why? The flame effect on the ceiling directly above you.

Sure that's only one tiny part of a big budget roller coaster/dark ride, but it's ONE element I remember most fondly, for it's sheer craziness. Without that element, I wouldn't be as happy with the ride.

That's not to say that recent Disney attractions haven't "wowed" me, but I'm not really finding any at WDW that I can think of.

To me, nature is the ultimate "wow" and the posts that discuss Disney's use of it as "awe" have hit on something, no?.

We call it "low tech", but in truth, nature is the highest technology there is! Man does nothing more than try and mimic it in one way after another. It is so marvelous and complex, yet simple and elegant. The closer we look, another world opens up before us, and the story does not shrink back but becomes more complex. To me, it is the greatest design of all and anything we do and congratulate ourselves over is likely a violation of divine patent infringement at some point. Trees fascinate me. We marvel at the abstract steel structure of the Matterhorn, but isn't it awesome that each tree has it's own dynamic structural blueprint built in it, that when faced with winds or terrain, it automatically compensates it's structure, grows differently and still maintains it's integrity? AWE! It is also a "factory" that grows pre-packaged food in silence. Tell Nabisco that. It provides free housing and food storage no two are alike. Man would make them all grow the same to save money and charge the birds rent. Nature is Imagineering and masterful design on crack. Put it into a system of grass, animals, waterfalls, and a few snow capped mountains and you got a show.
AK leverages all of that honor and love we attribute to those things and wraps it in a story. As was said before....a good idea.

We all know that guests sense the detail and beauty even if they don't understand it. When the natural world is leveraged into a great story, look at the wonder it adds. We sense there is a design and a purpose behind that too.

Something inside us responds to the "Swiss Family Treehouse", not just because of the adventure, but also of it's context. It would not be as compelling on the corner of Hollywood and Vine. We dream of living in harmony with our larger natural world and being closer to the animals and those simple pleasures. It's in our DNA to an extent. I think what Disney adds to nature is the "hope" that it could work, and that we could co exist with the natural world around us. The films in their own way give us lessons that we are a bit like the animals and they are like us. We want to work with, not against them. Tony's '98 Tomorrowland tried to head that direction (Montana Future) for a while. I'm not sure that the area made that clear or was the right arena to make that statement.

My favorite parts of DL and WDW are the places that are the most natural. The remote areas of the Rivers of America when it's quiet on the Mark Twain are truly magical. So are the Florida sunsets with the Castle in silhouette. WDW puts nature front and center, and the parks are nestled within that green blanket. I love that. The liberal amount of green at WDW reinforces the promise that any "Progress City" or any other development would be somehow in balance or subservient to the natural world it lived in as a neighbor. The animals are just as much a part of the future and residents as the people. Too much Urbanity to an extent lacks humility IMHO. Skyscrapers are magical but carry an ego. Man has a hard time improving on his surroundings and can do it in a balance. To me, WDW had that balance of development and natural beauty. The busses and traffic that infest WDW today just hurts that subliminal promise and remind us of the cities we left behind.

 

[jt04]

^ Great post. I believe this is why WDW ultimately needs a modern property wide people mover system that helps minimize road traffic.

Something like the PRT at Heathrow deployed at WDW is almost a necessity to keep all that makes WDW special preserved for the future.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

^ Great post. I believe this is why WDW ultimately needs a modern property wide people mover system that helps minimize road traffic.

Something like the PRT at Heathrow deployed at WDW is almost a necessity to keep all that makes WDW special preserved for the future.

Agree. It's probably huge $$$ but part of the vision.

 

[jt04]

Agree. It's probably huge $$$ but part of the vision.

Ultimately it could be a money saver.

I just found this! They are having a conference in San Jose this week and considering systems in California including a place you are very familiar with....

http://www.ultraprt.com/news/74/149/Oct-2010-Newsletter-Heathrow-Advances/

I keep imagining such a system with cars silently flying high through the pines of Fort Wilderness. Such a system could augment the current monorail system not replace it. I have looked at how it could be done and the logistics don't seem overwhelming at all in my opinion.

 

[Alektronic]

The one thing I would add to that idea, is that I'd build the private airstrip for the Virgin Galactic Spaceplane as part of the Hotel grounds, so those who fly on the plane spend time in a Richard Branson designed Hotel first. Guests can dine in a glass cube suspended in a white hangar looking down at the spaceplane like in a bond film. The jewel in the crown of the Progress City Resort, tied by Peoplemover to EPCOT. Disney needs to aim as high as possible to deliver EPCOT's promise with companies that are truly pioneering the future.

Maybe it will come to Orlando in the future. Richard Branson was just in Orlando and here is part of the interview.

We just met some of your "astronauts," your Virgin Galactic customers. How is that venture going?

Fantastically exciting. We did the drop, from the mother ship, dropped the spaceship two days ago; very successfully it glided safely back down to the Mojave Desert. In a week's time, we're unveiling the first spaceport, which is in New Mexico. We're only a few months away rom starting the whole spaceship program, taking people into space. I'm sure in future years, you know, we're going to need an East Coast base. Orlando is certainly a place we would seriously consider. I think it's part of your history, you're embued in it and there will be projects in the future years that we'll work with NASA on, that I think a mixture of NASA being an umbrella and working with private industry makes sense. And they've got brilliant people, we've got brilliant people, so I'm sure there are lots of things we can work together on in future years.

Here is a link to the full interview.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/busi...-with-branson-101810-20101017,0,2133514.story

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Ultimately it could be a money saver.

I just found this! They are having a conference in San Jose this week and considering systems in California including a place you are very familiar with....

http://www.ultraprt.com/news/74/149/Oct-2010-Newsletter-Heathrow-Advances/

I keep imagining such a system with cars silently flying high through the pines of Fort Wilderness. Such a system could augment the current monorail system not replace it. I have looked at how it could be done and the logistics don't seem overwhelming at all in my opinion.

That system is very nice. I'm sure it could be "romanced" into something really cool.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Maybe it will come to Orlando in the future. Richard Branson was just in Orlando and here is part of the interview.

We just met some of your "astronauts," your Virgin Galactic customers. How is that venture going?

Fantastically exciting. We did the drop, from the mother ship, dropped the spaceship two days ago; very successfully it glided safely back down to the Mojave Desert. In a week's time, we're unveiling the first spaceport, which is in New Mexico. We're only a few months away rom starting the whole spaceship program, taking people into space. I'm sure in future years, you know, we're going to need an East Coast base. Orlando is certainly a place we would seriously consider. I think it's part of your history, you're embued in it and there will be projects in the future years that we'll work with NASA on, that I think a mixture of NASA being an umbrella and working with private industry makes sense. And they've got brilliant people, we've got brilliant people, so I'm sure there are lots of things we can work together on in future years.

Here is a link to the full interview.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/busi...-with-branson-101810-20101017,0,2133514.story

Wow. Disney should jump on this before KSC does.