Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Cosmic Commando]

I think my response to that post is sorta split into two different lines of thinking:

1. I think the theme park market has evolved in the last 47 years. When the very idea of a theme park was novel, that was enough for almost everyone... just the "what", not so much the "how" or "why". The guest experience itself was satisfaction enough. As we've seen giant mountains spring up over the years and entire theme parks being built, I think the audience has matured over the years to a point where more of us care about the "how" and "why". A similar concept is thrown around (vaguely and randomly) in the sports world with the idea of a "smart" audience who gets the rules and appreciate little plays versus maybe an expansion market audience who is at the arena/stadium more for the spectacle of it all.

2. The world in general is a little different now than in 1965 . I think Disney has simply adapted their marketing to the Internet/cable TV age. That Disneyland TV show probably aired once or twice. Now, there is just so much more space to fill on the airwaves; there is a huge demand for content and it gets repeated over and over. That's without even mentioning the petabytes of information and video available 24/7 online. We have an unparalleled amount of choice in media today. I don't feel like Disney is beating us over the head, because in the end we all choose to consume the information. The little preview section of the guidebook probably had a piece of concept art and maybe a paragraph about each attraction. If you don't want to know more than that, why keep reading? It's like a person who doesn't want movie spoilers reading every news article about said movie.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Too much information

All your thoughts are great and insightful! Well done. Thanks!
If the fans weren't hungry for every tidbit, they would not put it out there. I'm guilty as I'm telling you guys stuff. The internet is spoiler central anyway. Just thought it was an interesting point, in that how much backstage kills the magic?

The darker side of the issue is this.

Are they "manufacturing" hidden fan trivia as marketing, or it is still the designers secret motive to bury stuff just for you? In my day, we buried all kinds of stuff the company never knew about and the fans were the only ones to "get it". Actually, there are still things I did that I'm not talking about that can be found because they'd rip it out. None of it was to market to fans although they were "Easter Eggs". It's like the way the studios deliberately manufacture bloopers and outtakes now for the DVDs.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Are they "manufacturing" hidden fan trivia as marketing, or it is still the designers secret motive to bury stuff just for you? In my day, we buried all kinds of stuff the company never knew about and the fans were the only ones to "get it". Actually, there are still things I did that I'm not talking about that can be found because they'd rip it out. None of it was to market to fans although they were "Easter Eggs". It's like the way the studios deliberately manufacture bloopers and outtakes now for the DVDs.

I think a lot of it is now being manufactured. When you can sell t-shirts with phrases from spiels, there is obviously a market for this little "inside" items. There are books sold to point out these references and Hidden Mickeys, which are now even pointed out on the official blog. These little details, that famous "Disney Difference," are no longer layers being filled to make the design more real, they are now something separate to sell.

I think Buena Vista Street is a prime example of this taking place. Almost all of the names are derived from Disney history. Names of the now Disney Legends do not populate the other parks because they are Disney Legends, but because they were the people working at the time. A shop or two named for some Disney history reference would be one thing, but almost the entire land is getting this treatment. We cannot have a Weis' Wares because it is no longer just giving a shop a name after the man heading the overall project. It is something that would be promoted and sold on the blog as if he were a Disney Legend.

I guess in some ways this is a result of the information age, but in others I think it is also a reflection of Disney's attitude towards themed entertainment. Disney's California Adventure was in many ways the anti-theme park. It knew it was fake and you were in on the joke. Disney still seems to see the idea of creating worlds that view themselves as real as something silly. Carsland may well be the exception, but most of the "Disneyfication" of the park was not in creating immersive worlds that viewed themselves as real, but in adding brands (Disney History has definitely become a brand to be marketed and sold) and ornamentation. If you do not see yourself as creating a world then you are not going to point out the aspects that reinforce this idea, like the meticulous research and detail that has actually gone into creating Los Angeles of the 1920s and 1930s, you point out what makes it "Disney," the names and details that have been put in so that this project can be shown and sold as "Disney" complete with "Disney" references.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

All your thoughts are great and insightful! Well done. Thanks!
If the fans weren't hungry for every tidbit, they would not put it out there. I'm guilty as I'm telling you guys stuff. The internet is spoiler central anyway. Just thought it was an interesting point, in that how much backstage kills the magic?

The darker side of the issue is this.

Are they "manufacturing" hidden fan trivia as marketing, or it is still the designers secret motive to bury stuff just for you? In my day, we buried all kinds of stuff the company never knew about and the fans were the only ones to "get it". Actually, there are still things I did that I'm not talking about that can be found because they'd rip it out. None of it was to market to fans although they were "Easter Eggs". It's like the way the studios deliberately manufacture bloopers and outtakes now for the DVDs.

It's almost certain that the little "details" are being manufactured to some degree. Given the reason that all of these little things appeared in the first place (inside jokes among the imagineers working long hours together) still exists, I wonder if there is one layer of detail that gets "leaked" out and another layer of jokes and references that the imagineers design to keep to themselves.

 

[RandySavage]

Eddie, are you familiar with the Palace of the Lost City hotel in Sun City, South Africa? Although it was built in 1992, I just came across it recently. I'm always interested in studying the very best in themed design, and The Palace might beat out TokyoDisneySea's MiraCosta and a handful of others (mostly by Disney) as the most impressive themed resort hotel on the planet.

Are there other hidden gems of themed design out there in the world (outside Disney) that have impressed you (of which some of us might not be aware)?

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs11/PRE/i/2006/177/d/e/Palace_of_the_Lost_City_2_by_Wirls.jpg
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs28/i/2008/103/9/b/Palace_of_the_Lost_City_2_by_luethy.jpg
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/084/d/8/Gateway_to_the_Lost_City_by_MrCoolAttitude.jpg

 

[HMF]

I think a lot of it is now being manufactured. When you can sell t-shirts with phrases from spiels, there is obviously a market for this little "inside" items. There are books sold to point out these references and Hidden Mickeys, which are now even pointed out on the official blog. These little details, that famous "Disney Difference," are no longer layers being filled to make the design more real, they are now something separate to sell.

I think Buena Vista Street is a prime example of this taking place. Almost all of the names are derived from Disney history. Names of the now Disney Legends do not populate the other parks because they are Disney Legends, but because they were the people working at the time. A shop or two named for some Disney history reference would be one thing, but almost the entire land is getting this treatment. We cannot have a Weis' Wares because it is no longer just giving a shop a name after the man heading the overall project. It is something that would be promoted and sold on the blog as if he were a Disney Legend.

I guess in some ways this is a result of the information age, but in others I think it is also a reflection of Disney's attitude towards themed entertainment. Disney's California Adventure was in many ways the anti-theme park. It knew it was fake and you were in on the joke. Disney still seems to see the idea of creating worlds that view themselves as real as something silly. Carsland may well be the exception, but most of the "Disneyfication" of the park was not in creating immersive worlds that viewed themselves as real, but in adding brands (Disney History has definitely become a brand to be marketed and sold) and ornamentation. If you do not see yourself as creating a world then you are not going to point out the aspects that reinforce this idea, like the meticulous research and detail that has actually gone into creating Los Angeles of the 1920s and 1930s, you point out what makes it "Disney," the names and details that have been put in so that this project can be shown and sold as "Disney" complete with "Disney" references.

Fiddler, Fifer & Practical Cafe', really? the fact that it's a tribute does not make it a good name.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Wwat&g

Are there other hidden gems of themed design out there in the world (outside Disney) that have impressed you (of which some of us might not be aware)?
]

I saw a presentation by WWAT&G, the Newport Beach firm that designed this stunning Resort back in 92. They have designed many of the finest (4 Seasons, Ritz Carlton) Hotels and Resorts in the world. You should see their portfolio. Here's a video of how they started.

http://www.watg.com/index.cfm/page/01131B01-3048-7B3D-C58BFEAB68A3C3A7

http://www.watg.com/index.cfm/page/shangri-la-villingili-resort-spa-maldives/

I think they do the best hotels and I'm sure you'll see some jaw droppers. They did the Venetian and other big Vegas hotels as well.

Some of my favorites are themed hotels from the past, like the "Old Faithful Inn" in Yellowstone, "The Madonna Inn" in San Luis Obispo, "The Mission Inn" in Riverside, and the Scottish themed "Tam O' Shanter" Restaurant in LA (Walt's Favorite). This one in Morocco comes to mind as well.

http://www.mamounia.com/uk/index.php

or this Ice Hotel.
http://www.icehotel.com/uk/ICEHOTEL/

Here's a collection of pretty insane experiences.
http://weburbanist.com/themed-castle-and-art-hotels/

 

[RandySavage]

^Thanks for the links. Your inclusion of the early 20th or older resorts like Old Faithful, Mamounia and the others raises the interesting question of what the term "theme-ing" means & includes.

For example, both Caesar's Palace Las Vegas and the New York Stock Exchange emulate classical architecture, but I'd only consider the former themed. Maybe it's just semantics.

What I find so impressive about the Lost City is that it feels like those more authentic, older places you mentioned - committed from foundation to rafters to its invented style. Whereas most other themed hotels of recent decades (like Aulani, Atlantis, all the Vegas strip ones, Venetian Macau) have nicely done lobbies & public areas, they are dominated by dressed-up mid-rise, post-modern guest-room wings & towers. I can only think of a handful of recent large hotels that carry their ambitious and well-executed themed design through the entire structure's architecture and most of those have been by Disney (e.g. MiraCosta, Wilderness Lodge, Grand Californian, etc.).

 

[Missing20K]

I saw a presentation by WWAT&G, the Newport Beach firm that designed this stunning Resort back in 92. They have designed many of the finest (4 Seasons, Ritz Carlton) Hotels and Resorts in the world. You should see their portfolio. Here's a video of how they started.

http://www.watg.com/index.cfm/page/01131B01-3048-7B3D-C58BFEAB68A3C3A7

http://www.watg.com/index.cfm/page/shangri-la-villingili-resort-spa-maldives/

I think they do the best hotels and I'm sure you'll see some jaw droppers. They did the Venetian and other big Vegas hotels as well.

Some of my favorites are themed hotels from the past, like the "Old Faithful Inn" in Yellowstone, "The Madonna Inn" in San Luis Obispo, "The Mission Inn" in Riverside, and the Scottish themed "Tam O' Shanter" Restaurant in LA (Walt's Favorite). This one in Morocco comes to mind as well.

http://www.mamounia.com/uk/index.php

or this Ice Hotel.
http://www.icehotel.com/uk/ICEHOTEL/

Here's a collection of pretty insane experiences.
http://weburbanist.com/themed-castle-and-art-hotels/

WATG does some really amazing work. I love how they blur the line between architecture and themed immersive experiences. I think there is a lot that architects could learn from "experience" designers about evoking emotions from a user purely from the design and manipulation of space, but also how themed entertainment designers use smell, sound and taste to create the desired user reaction.

In their best work, I especially enjoy how WATG doesn't just build boxes and slap the appropriate "themed" skin on a building, but actually let the program and the constraints of the program help to dictate the design, at least to the extent the client requesting a "themed" environment will let them.

An open question to end this rare post. What are the ethics of themed environment design? Is it ok to utilize "generic" stylistic conventions if the end user is willingly submitting to suspend their disbelief? What I mean here is that if one builds a huge timber framed hotel (i.e. Wilderness Lodge) they will almost instantly, with not much other "theming", think of forestry, the national parks, etc. There have been discussions about if Pixar is emotionally manipulative in their movies (and whether this is right/wrong/indifferent) and I wonder if themed environment designers could be accused of something similar. On some level, almost all designers are manipulating emotions, spaces, encounters, in order to get the desired user reaction. My question concerns about when the user is aware or unaware of the designers intentions, and whether or not that awareness changes the design and the ethics of the design. /rant

 

[dagobert]

Here's a collection of pretty insane experiences.
http://weburbanist.com/themed-castle-and-art-hotels/

Thanks for the links, Mr. Sotto!

When you go to the Smallest Hotel Rooms on that website above, you can see the canal tube hotel. That hotel was located in my home city Linz. In 2010 Linz was the European Capital of Culture and for that event those "hotel rooms" were built in the Danube Park. Later they were relocated to a park in a small village called Ottensheim/Danube, a neighbouring village to where I grew up.

http://www.dasparkhotel.net/press/info/323_ber_kurzdokus.pdf

http://www.dasparkhotel.net/infrastructure/gaestefolder_e.pdf

http://www.dasparkhotel.net/location/index.php?lang=EN

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thanks for the links, Mr. Sotto!

When you go to the Smallest Hotel Rooms on that website above, you can see the canal tube hotel. That hotel was located in my home city Linz. In 2010 Linz was the European Capital of Culture and for that event those "hotel rooms" were built in the Danube Park. Later they were relocated to a park in a small village called Ottensheim/Danube, a neighbouring village to where I grew up.

http://www.dasparkhotel.net/press/info/323_ber_kurzdokus.pdf

http://www.dasparkhotel.net/infrastructure/gaestefolder_e.pdf

http://www.dasparkhotel.net/location/index.php?lang=EN

Given all of that tubular concrete they must have been pretty cold when the heater was off. I'm a bit claustrophobic, so I think I'll stay nearby. Thanks for sharing that with us. You live in an interesting place.

 

[Keppyslinger]

Conception Work

Hello Mr. Soto,
I have a some of questions about Concept art work.
My first is where does it all start? Does someone ask for images on a theme that then inspires creation ("Draw me images inspired by Hollywood."), or is it more need based ("I want to see your conception of a Hollywood Studios diner.")

I imagine that for every piece of concept art that is approved a bunch is discarded. What is done with those pieces?

Lastly, I was curious about the process that leads up to the release of "concept art" to the public. Is the work generated with the intention of being delivered publicly or is it a case where eventually it passes through so many hands it just becomes available to the public?

Thanks for your time!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Hello Mr. Soto,
I have a some of questions about Concept art work.
My first is where does it all start? Does someone ask for images on a theme that then inspires creation ("Draw me images inspired by Hollywood."), or is it more need based ("I want to see your conception of a Hollywood Studios diner.")

I imagine that for every piece of concept art that is approved a bunch is discarded. What is done with those pieces?

Lastly, I was curious about the process that leads up to the release of "concept art" to the public. Is the work generated with the intention of being delivered publicly or is it a case where eventually it passes through so many hands it just becomes available to the public?

Thanks for your time!

You can suggest an idea with a sketch in a brainstorming meeting, but usually you are assigned to deal with a project. I've drawn things up and shown them to management to pitch an idea, but that happens less than having an assignment from the parks. The assignment can be vague (What is the next Disneyland?) or more literal (Design a new Churro Cart for Tomorrowland). Sometimes you do a sketch to present to the group or express your idea, or just to visualize a work in progress. I draw fast and would sketch something in a meeting and try for a reaction. It used to be that really rough concept sketches got tossed, but anymore there is an art library and the art is labeled, scanned and filed. Some concept art is "marketing" art, in that it is produced once the concept is more finalized and is what you end up seeing in the magazine or the preview center. more finished and higher quality. That art has to be approved. It sells the attraction. Storyboard or continuity sketches are usually used in the creation of the show.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

What is Theme?

I'd say Theme Design is the art of designing an alternate representational reality that obeys the logic of what it seeks to represent as a seamless thread. Themed environments seek to eliminate any contradictions to that defined ethic and this extends to all sensory aspects. Most themed environments hope to immerse you in another time or place, usually familiar or one you desire to visit. Themed environments seek to convince the visitor that they are a part of that reality, not just viewing it.

Styled Environments (Disney Stores vs. Disneyland) also obey a visual logic and continuity but do not seek to transport you to a time or place that is representational, they are just immersing you in their alternate environment. Frank Geary's Disney Hall is a richly styled environment that has a strong visual vocabulary and ethic although it is not transportive to another time and place. It's usually representative of itself, not another existing place. Rivera Restaurant follows a strict visual theme, but is representational of itself although it borrows elements from culture abstractly, so it's not themed to a specific latin american country, but represents the culture.

 

[Missing20K]

I'd say Theme Design is the art of designing an alternate representational reality that obeys the logic of what it seeks to represent as a seamless thread. Themed environments seek to eliminate any contradictions to that defined ethic and this extends to all sensory aspects. Most themed environments hope to immerse you in another time or place, usually familiar or one you desire to visit. Themed environments seek to convince the visitor that they are a part of that reality, not just viewing it.

How do the visitors expectations change how one might design? Currently, is it becoming more difficult to design these environments as people become more and more conditioned to theme parks and themed environments? Do they need to be ever more "immersive" for people to suspend disbelief?

Styled Environments (Disney Stores vs. Disneyland) also obey a visual logic and continuity but do not seek to transport you to a time or place that is representational, they are just immersing you in their alternate environment. Frank Geary's Disney Hall is a richly styled environment that has a strong visual vocabulary and ethic although it is not transportive to another time and place. It's usually representative of itself, not another existing place. Rivera Restaurant follows a strict visual theme, but is representational of itself although it borrows elements from culture abstractly, so it's not themed to a specific latin american country, but represents the culture.

Do you consider Rivera's design post-modern then? In that you took multiple, seemingly disparate pieces of multiple cultures and abstractly put them together in self-referencing manner. Rivera, and for that matter, the Aston Martin dealership, seem to exist entirely in and of themselves. As though they had a mind of their own and created and designed their own space themselves. They are phenomenolgical in the best sense and are a designed environment version of the "Hermeneutic circle" and very Gestalt. The parts and pieces are not understood without viewing the whole and vice versa.

I really wish more of your current designs were made public. I feel there is much to learn from you. Just out of curiosity, have you done any teaching at colleges/universities?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

How do the visitors expectations change how one might design? Currently, is it becoming more difficult to design these environments as people become more and more conditioned to theme parks and themed environments? Do they need to be ever more "immersive" for people to suspend disbelief?
Do you consider Rivera's design post-modern then? In that you took multiple, seemingly disparate pieces of multiple cultures and abstractly put them together in self-referencing manner. Rivera, and for that matter, the Aston Martin dealership, seem to exist entirely in and of themselves. As though they had a mind of their own and created and designed their own space themselves. They are phenomenolgical in the best sense and are a designed environment version of the "Hermeneutic circle" and very Gestalt. The parts and pieces are not understood without viewing the whole and vice versa.

I really wish more of your current designs were made public. I feel there is much to learn from you. Just out of curiosity, have you done any teaching at colleges/universities?

Rivera could be seen that way. It is mostly inspired by Mayan forms, but expressed as a 70's inspired graphic narrative. Rivera also draws from the building it's in as there is a Bauhaus style concrete structure that bisects the space. Aston is a retro modern space inspired by the many lairs found in Bond films and is pretty much it's own unique world. Seamless worlds need the detail to support the whole, and as you point out, the visitor constantly looks to the details to suspend disbelief. Once to are used to the environment you look for more to keep you in the spell. When the world is well defined, it's very satisfying. ("Look, they even did the manhole covers, etc.") So these spaces do exist as "worlds".

I do get hired from time to time to give lectures on "Experiential Design" and have done so for many large corporations and colleges. I've never formally taught it as a class. I'd rather do it!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

To add to that, what I speak about mostly is how these designed "experiences" are actually emotional systems. And yes, to answer your question they are designed expressly to emotionally manipulate.

When we experience something, our senses are involved and it goes far beyond architecture. We are constantly retaining all of these things through our senses, so to be a convincing theme designer you want to be aware of that in design. When you design a themed experience, your senses also play a part in making the reality convincing. Imagine the opposite. Van Halen in the Main Street music loop, the smell of Steak from the Candy Palace, excess heat in the dank Pirate Caves, or a hollow knock on a granite boulder, all betray the entire reality in one small stroke. All of those sensory elements are part of a bigger "System of Experience" and must be considered at the outset as how they are cumulative. My belief is when you tune it all, it's incredibly powerful. how often do we hear people on the boards missing the diesel smell of the Submarine Ride? When it's gone, we notice. I will add in the case of Rivera that the flavors of the food play into it was well. (The marble tabletop matches the graphics on the food http://gallery.me.com/boss_angeles#100025/cautionred&bgcolor=black). The dishes themselves are graphically themed to the space. You can say that part of the childlike appeal of Disneyland is all the juvenile foods like Ice Cream, Popcorn, Lollipops, etc.

One of the first things I do when taking on an assignment is to make the Background Music Track of the final project and play it to myself constantly. I let the music lead me into and keep me inside the idea. I'm already living in the finished project emotionally when I'm working. I did this on Rivera and gave copies to the investors and told them this is what it will feel like. When the restaurant opened a year later we played the very same music and it felt incredible as it was now the reality and just as I imagined it. The investors were thrilled as it was better than they thought but emotionally aligned. It was tuned.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

If you want to hear the "A Night at Rivera" playlist I'm talking about, it's posted on iTunes. This link will trigger iTunes if you have it downloaded. We get lots of email on the eclectic music choices and where to get it. Just a sampler. Enjoy.

http://c.itunes.apple.com/us/imix/a-night-at-rivera/id346484869

 

[flynnibus]

To add to that, what I speak about mostly is how these designed "experiences" are actually emotional systems. And yes, to answer your question they are designed expressly to emotionally manipulate.

See that is something I think so many people miss. And why I think so many efforts that are intricately detailed.. and the fans go 'ZOMG look at this theming!!' and the place still is hollow and falls flat. I think too many people think 'theme = details' and if you just load up on details your task is done. Instead of looking at from 'what does this detail' suggest and how does it steer or impact the guest.

I think too many people look at 'the details fit the time/place and so its themed perfect'. IMHO, theme is not just as detail conflict or non-conflict and but looking at what is INCLUDED and how it plays the supporting role to set the stage, set the tone, or drive the guest's experience emotionally.

It that THEATER in the design that I think so many people miss.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

See that is something I think so many people miss. And why I think so many efforts that are intricately detailed.. and the fans go 'ZOMG look at this theming!!' and the place still is hollow and falls flat. I think too many people think 'theme = details' and if you just load up on details your task is done. Instead of looking at from 'what does this detail' suggest and how does it steer or impact the guest.

I think too many people look at 'the details fit the time/place and so its themed perfect'. IMHO, theme is not just as detail conflict or non-conflict and but looking at what is INCLUDED and how it plays the supporting role to set the stage, set the tone, or drive the guest's experience emotionally.

It that THEATER in the design that I think so many people miss.

Well said. So true, as they don't have music and scents on the blueprints. The details are part of a cumulative system and should be in balance with each other and all driven from the central theme or emotional premise. Music can be a detail as the background to create a feeling, or a tempo driven narrative as it is in Small World. This is why I have to clearly know the result of what we want guest to feel before we design anything. Details don't help something that's bankrupt to begin with. The bigger picture is most important. What are we trying to leave them with? Where are we taking them? I ask myself, "What is the "wow"?" and then work backwards into all of those elements big and small that will contribute to that emotion. If the experience system is an "engine" is it firing on all cylinders, and where is it driving us?