DVC point reallocation in 2022

[ParentsOf4]

Disney is reallocating DVC points in 2022, making the fall more expensive than prior years, and making the summer less expensive than in prior years.

Detailed point chart are available on the DVC website.

The following is quoted from the DVC website:

After a thorough analysis of Member travel patterns and Resort demand, the 2022 Disney Vacation Club Vacation Points Charts were adjusted to continue to encourage travel throughout the year with the goal of improving availability.

The 2022 Vacation Points Charts will again feature 7 seasons with modified travel options. Similar to the 2021 reallocation, travel periods with greater demand will require more Points and travel periods with less demand will require fewer Points. For example, Members can enjoy stays for fewer Points than the year before when traveling during the summer period. On the other hand, Members who wish to travel in certain weeks in October, November and December will require more Points than the year before.

The 2022 changes only affect Disney Vacation Club Resorts at Walt Disney World Resort. They do not impact Disney’s Vero Beach Resort, Disney’s Hilton Head Island Resort, The Villas at Disney’s Grand Californian Hotel & Spa and Aulani, Disney Vacation Club Villas.

 

[correcaminos]

Was just coming to post. Am on mobile but they are here https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/vacation-planning/points-charts/

 

[Mousse']

Long time BCV member, and I've been watching for years as they mess with us... Just so FRUSTRATING! Overselling some areas making it impossible to be spontaneous any more, taking away perks from non-direct buyers (theoretically devaluing resale), literally packing the parks so there is no off season, etc... And now with the points shifting killing the time of year we love!

I know in the contracts they basically can do anything they want, BUT I'd bet my points way back when they said the charts would never move. Effectively with these changes they've made DVC even less attractive, as there's now way I'm doing Disney in the summer! Am the only one who hates this stuff?!?! ok... rant over...

And I have really no right to be a total a$$ as I recognize we could sell now for double the money we paid and yup as a stockholder that value has sored, but we loved Disney from 97'-15' and I'm still holding out hope it may come back. Is that a pipe-dream and is it time to sell due to the loss of joy it once provided? Somebody please talk me off the ledge or give me a push.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

Long time BCV member, and I've been watching for years as they mess with us... Just so FRUSTRATING! Overselling some areas making it impossible to be spontaneous any more, taking away perks from non-direct buyers (theoretically devaluing resale), literally packing the parks so there is no off season, etc... And now with the points shifting killing the time of year we love!

Since you have obviously been going to WDW for many years, you should know how to be spontaneous on any trip. Yes, you may have to make a few ADRs or eventually FP again, but that isn't necessary to having a great trip. We stay for 9 days at least 2 or 3 times every year, and make maybe 3 ADRs the entire trip. We would make a few FP for a few must do's, but other than that, we play it all by ear. If we don't get to ride a particular attraction, that's ok, as we know we'll be back soon.
The shifting points really didn't add that much. For a week in a 1 bedroom at BCV in October, it went from 232 to 253. Yes, it went up, but not a crazy amount. If you go in September (like we usually do), the points haven't changed at all. The first 2 weeks of December (one of our other favorite times), one of DVCs busiest time, also didn't change at all.
As far as resale, there has been no change in how much people are selling their contracts for, and in some cases, it has gone up, even with the restrictions.

I know in the contracts they basically can do anything they want, BUT I'd bet my points way back when they said the charts would never move. Effectively with these changes they've made DVC even less attractive, as there's now way I'm doing Disney in the summer! Am the only one who hates this stuff?!?! ok... rant over...

Hmm, been an owner for well over a decade, and we were never told that the points were set in stone. I'm pretty sure our guide at the time said that they can change as needed. Not sure how they've made it less attractive to you. Can you be more specific?

And I have really no right to be a total a$$ as I recognize we could sell now for double the money we paid and yup as a stockholder that value has sored, but we loved Disney from 97'-15' and I'm still holding out hope it may come back. Is that a pipe-dream and is it time to sell due to the loss of joy it once provided? Somebody please talk me off the ledge or give me a push.

The loss of joy is purely a personal matter. We still find joy in every trip. We were there in March when COVID first hit, and were forced to make some changes. We were supposed to be on a cruise, but it was cancelled the night before we were to sail. So we added a few days to our stay (all non-park days as we had let our APs expire, since we had 2 cruises scheduled with WDW stays before and after each one), and then made a reservation at HH for a few days for the trip home. We've done several non-park visits and have still had awesome vacations. YMMV on what you consider to be important to your stay at WDW.

 

[correcaminos]

Long time BCV member, and I've been watching for years as they mess with us... Just so FRUSTRATING! Overselling some areas making it impossible to be spontaneous any more, taking away perks from non-direct buyers (theoretically devaluing resale), literally packing the parks so there is no off season, etc... And now with the points shifting killing the time of year we love!

I know in the contracts they basically can do anything they want, BUT I'd bet my points way back when they said the charts would never move. Effectively with these changes they've made DVC even less attractive, as there's now way I'm doing Disney in the summer! Am the only one who hates this stuff?!?! ok... rant over...

And I have really no right to be a total a$$ as I recognize we could sell now for double the money we paid and yup as a stockholder that value has sored, but we loved Disney from 97'-15' and I'm still holding out hope it may come back. Is that a pipe-dream and is it time to sell due to the loss of joy it once provided? Somebody please talk me off the ledge or give me a push.

The contracts do not say they can do anything they want. I'm sorry to be blunt, but that's just not true. Some people are doing better with reallocations and others worse. Over the history of reallocating, we have been on both the losing as well as the gaining ends. This time we happen to come ahead, but still.

Not sure how long you've owned but nothing is new here. I won't tell someone not to sell if they aren't happy though

 

[Phonedave]

Long time BCV member, and I've been watching for years as they mess with us... Just so FRUSTRATING! Overselling some areas making it impossible to be spontaneous any more, taking away perks from non-direct buyers (theoretically devaluing resale), literally packing the parks so there is no off season, etc... And now with the points shifting killing the time of year we love!

I know in the contracts they basically can do anything they want, BUT I'd bet my points way back when they said the charts would never move. Effectively with these changes they've made DVC even less attractive, as there's now way I'm doing Disney in the summer! Am the only one who hates this stuff?!?! ok... rant over...

And I have really no right to be a total a$$ as I recognize we could sell now for double the money we paid and yup as a stockholder that value has sored, but we loved Disney from 97'-15' and I'm still holding out hope it may come back. Is that a pipe-dream and is it time to sell due to the loss of joy it once provided? Somebody please talk me off the ledge or give me a push.

DVC cannot oversell an area. If you add up all of the points for all of the rooms for all of the days at a given resort then that is to total number of points that can be sold - period. DVC cannot just create more points to sell out of thin air. They either have to acquire them via ROFR or build more rooms

They cannot "do whatever they want" but they can reallocate points - as was explained to me multiple times when I bought my first contract over 10 years ago. And it has been communicated to me multiple times thereafte, and has happened multiple times.

While you used to be able to be more spontaneous, DVC has always been marketed by DVC and explained by others, as something that best suits people who go on longer vacations that they plan in advance.

What has happened is that a lot of people are trying to maximize points by jamming families into a studio, so DVC has shifted the point cost of studios to try and counter this. They are also adjusting points because they have more people trying to book in the fall months. It is simple supply / demand / cost. Supply is fixed, there is a set number of rooms. They have to adjust cost to drive demand to make it meet supply.

I also miss the way WDW used to be -my first trip as an adult was 1996 - so same time frame as you. WDW has changed a lot, and it no longer has the draw for me that it once had. I still like DVC, but WDW has lost some of its appeal. We now go less than we used to, dine at TS restaurants a LOT less, and buy less days of park admissions. We now spend more time relaxing by the pool, going to Disney Springs, and may have to think about playing some of the golf courses.

We still find value in our DVC ownership, even with the changes in WDW, but if it is not enjoyable for you, then it may be time for you to unload it it.

 

[nickys]

Overselling some areas making it impossible to be spontaneous any more,

They cannot oversell. I assume you are referring to the Poly and CCV where the points sold against the bungalows and cabins put pressure on the availability of the other rooms. Whilst I can understand the frustration it is not overselling and any potential new owner there should know the score by now if they do their homework. I don’t understand how this affects spontaneity though.

, literally packing the parks so there is no off season, etc

This is Disney’s doing and thee is nothing that DVD can do about it. But DVC peak times are different to WDW’s.

I know in the contracts they basically can do anything they want,

No they can’t. The point chart must balance out. Now I must admit I, like many others, thought that points had to balance for each room type across the year. It seems with the new charts this is not necessarily the case, especially for Riviera. But unless members are willing mount a legal challenge then maybe we have to accept we were wrong.

Effectively with these changes they've made DVC even less attractive

To you, perhaps. It depends when you preferred to go previously. Early December was unaffected this time at least.

However, since you are clearly annoyed then maybe you should at least investigate what you might get by selling. Unless this was just a rant, in which case in a couple of months you’ll probably be bookings another trip.

 

[nickys]

For background, Disney is not allowed to increase the total DVC points allocated per unit. But in DVC parlance, a unit is a 2-Bedroom Villa (or its equivalent).

Sorry, but this is incorrect for a start. It is true that they cannot increase the total DVC points per unit.

But a unit is not simply any 2-bed lock-off Villa. A unit is specifically defined when a resort is built and DVD start declaring units for sale. It can be a block of a studios, a 3-bed villa, one building at OKW or SSR or any other combination of rooms. But each unit of a resort is clearly defined and documented in the documents of that resort.

Think about it for a moment. How can there be any units at the Poly if a unit is a 2-bed villa?

That whole analysis was argued and legally challenged when the lock-off premium came to the fore a couple of years ago with “Pointsgate”. And clearly whatever site you’ve just read it on is perpetuating the fallacy that a unit is a 2-bed.

Now the lock-off premium is absolutely a “thing”. Put simply, it costs more points to rent the studio and the 1-bed than it does to rent the 2-bed. But when you start a debate with a fallacy, your argument loses it’s impact and will ultimately fail - just like those discussions between DVD and some legal people on behalf of a few members.

 

[nickys]

Please note that I also stated "or its equivalent", which is the language used in Disney's annual reports.

For example, quoting from the 2019 annual report:

DVC offers ownership interests in 15 resort facilities located at the Walt Disney World Resort; Disneyland Resort; Aulani; Vero Beach, Florida; and Hilton Head Island, South Carolina. Available units are offered for sale under a vacation ownership plan and are operated as hotel rooms when not occupied by vacation club members. The Company’s vacation club units range from deluxe studios to three-bedroom grand villas. Unit counts in this document are presented in terms of two-bedroom equivalents. DVC had approximately 4,000 vacation club units as of September 28, 2019 and is scheduled to open an additional 300 units at Disney’s Riviera Resort at Walt Disney World Resort in December 2019. The Company has also announced plans to build Reflections - A Disney Lakeside Lodge, which will include vacation club units.​

Well that isn’t the same as the “units” defined in the POS. They are describing what most people would call a Villa - hence “they range from deluxe studios to 3-bed villas”.

If you take a look at your documents when you bought, it will tell you own a fraction of “unit xyz”. And the plans of the resort will show the units. The unit I own a share of is a group of rooms at Bay Lake that comprises studios, 1 and 2-beds, across a couple of floors. Those are the legal term of “unit” which is what the regulations are referring to.

 

[Mousse']

Long time BCV member, and I've been watching for years as they mess with us...

Just adding on a bit:
On the oversell, Disney has so much X per guest. Everybody’s got their own mix of “X”. It can be square footage to move around in, quickness from lobby to room time, getting reservations at your favorite restaurants, places to buy a beer, parking spots, characters for meet and greets, etc... Back in the “good old days“ I was reminiscing about, the number of guests was smaller so these “happiness resources” had to be shared with fewer people. You as a guest got more happiness and fewer aggravations.

Now while they did expand the happy with more restaurants, buses, better processes, new lands al a Star Wars at MGM, etc... (there’s a flashback term that dates me.... I‘ll never call it Hollywood Studios) they increased their number of guests much faster. And I think the number of guests has soared as they keep building more and more and more rooms. Hence you get “less happy“ on a visit, AND realization of that reduction itself increases your unhappiness. (And that’s just if you‘re like me looking for the happy. I absolutely recognize the fact that I’m immeasurably lucky that cost never played into it for me).

When we first joined we could get a reservation for the times we loved (1st week of Feb and Halloween) maybe two or three months out and sometimes later. I don’t ever remember having to worry about not being able to get a room. Now it seems you‘re lucky if you can get one at 7 months at a place you want to stay. (Please don’t say “there’s always Key West and Saratoga Springs“). So while the arguments that DVC can’t be oversold based on legal and timeshare contacts concepts may be true, DVC and on-property in general absolutely has been oversold, killing the amount of “Happy” per guest (...and/or per dollar for many).

A side question relevant to the lock off conversation: Have they monkeyed around with the room-type mix in a way that would effect the points usage? Or how about the ratios of member vs “holdback”/rental rooms?


PS: thank you to all the great responders. Good food for thought.

 

[nickys]

Just adding on a bit:
On the oversell, Disney has so much X per guest. Everybody’s got their own mix of “X”. It can be square footage to move around in, quickness from lobby to room time, getting reservations at your favorite restaurants, places to buy a beer, parking spots, characters for meet and greets, etc... Back in the “good old days“ I was reminiscing about, the number of guests was smaller so these “happiness resources” had to be shared with fewer people. You as a guest got more happiness and fewer aggravations.

Now while they did expand the happy with more restaurants, buses, better processes, new lands al a Star Wars at MGM, etc... (there’s a flashback term that dates me.... I‘ll never call it Hollywood Studios) they increased their number of guests much faster. And I think the number of guests has soared as they keep building more and more and more rooms. Hence you get “less happy“ on a visit, AND realization of that reduction itself increases your unhappiness. (And that’s just if you‘re like me looking for the happy. I absolutely recognize the fact that I’m immeasurably lucky that cost never played into it for me).

When we first joined we could get a reservation for the times we loved (1st week of Feb and Halloween) maybe two or three months out and sometimes later. I don’t ever remember having to worry about not being able to get a room. Now it seems you‘re lucky if you can get one at 7 months at a place you want to stay. (Please don’t say “there’s always Key West and Saratoga Springs“). So while the arguments that DVC can’t be oversold based on legal and timeshare contacts concepts may be true, DVC and on-property in general absolutely has been oversold, killing the amount of “Happy” per guest (...and/or per dollar for many).

A side question relevant to the lock off conversation: Have they monkeyed around with the room-type mix in a way that would effect the points usage? Or how about the ratios of member vs “holdback”/rental rooms?


PS: thank you to all the great responders. Good food for thought.

Onsite guests account for a minority of WDW park guests. The increase in park guests isn’t solely being driven by those staying onsite. Thus your “over-selling” definition doesn’t really apply to resort rooms and DVC membership.Whilst the number of hotel rooms, including DVC, has been increased massively, they are simply trying to capture more of the visitors into staying onsite vs offsite.

DVD (or BVTC) own 2-3% of the points at each resort. They can use those points any way they want, so for a whole bunch of studios or 2 GVs (they tend not to use them for GVs afaik). Obviously at Riviera right now they still own far more than that and will do until it is all declared for sale.

The bungalows at the Poly don’t have as much impact as you might think, because there are so many studios there. The cabins at CCV do have a massive impact because there are fewer studios. So members who only have enough points for a studio have to book right at 11 months (and often need to walk).

In general I think the lower minimum buy-in direct has had a big impact on demand for studios particularly. And then you have people who add on a small number of points and later on sell the contract to a new member who now has even fewer points in total than a new direct buyer.

Fixed weeks at the newer resorts also have an impact because they take rooms out of the availability pool.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

When we first joined we could get a reservation for the times we loved (1st week of Feb and Halloween) maybe two or three months out and sometimes later. I don’t ever remember having to worry about not being able to get a room. Now it seems you‘re lucky if you can get one at 7 months at a place you want to stay. (Please don’t say “there’s always Key West and Saratoga Springs“). So while the arguments that DVC can’t be oversold based on legal and timeshare contacts concepts may be true, DVC and on-property in general absolutely has been oversold, killing the amount of “Happy” per guest (...and/or per dollar for many).

Well, I don't know whether it is due to COVID or not, but you can book either a Studio or 1 Bedroom at every single DVC resort, with the one exception of VGF for Jan 30 thru Feb 7 right now - barely a month out. You haven't mentioned how large your typical party is, so didn't check for 2 bedrooms.

Yes, when we first joined we could easily get a reservation at 2-3 months out for most resorts, but we just recognize that those days are gone, and we go with the flow. We always book SSR at the 11 month mark, to be sure we have a reservation for the week that we want, and then change at 7 months. To date, the only resort we haven't been able to book is CCV. While we haven't stayed at Riviera as of yet, we can see availability for the times we want to go, so we know we'll get there eventually - especially once DVD declares more rooms for DVC members to book. So the "Happy" is still definitely there for us.

I will agree that because they have added more DVC resorts, resulting in many more owners, that certain resorts can be hard to book at less than 7 months depending on the season. Just the nature of the beast. We go every year for Food&Wine, and while we own at SSR (and love it, BTW), we have booked BWV 3 times in the last 4 years. The one year we didn't book BWV, we booked a 1 bedroom at BCV. All at exactly the 7 month mark. I admit that we may not be the best guest to compare to, since our kids are grown and married, it's just the 2 of us for the majority of our trips. And even with just the 2 of us, we book a 1 bedroom for the majority of the trips as well, as we love the extra room and amenities. It does help that we have plenty of points to do this, and I recognize that most probably aren't as lucky.

 

[Mousse']

Well, I don't know whether it is due to COVID or not, but you can book either a Studio or 1 Bedroom at every single DVC resort, with the one exception of VGF for Jan 30 thru Feb 7 right now - barely a month out. You haven't mentioned how large your typical party is, so didn't check for 2 bedrooms.

Yes, when we first joined we could easily get a reservation at 2-3 months out for most resorts, but we just recognize that those days are gone, and we go with the flow. We always book SSR at the 11 month mark, to be sure we have a reservation for the week that we want, and then change at 7 months. To date, the only resort we haven't been able to book is CCV. While we haven't stayed at Riviera as of yet, we can see availability for the times we want to go, so we know we'll get there eventually - especially once DVD declares more rooms for DVC members to book. So the "Happy" is still definitely there for us.

I will agree that because they have added more DVC resorts, resulting in many more owners, that certain resorts can be hard to book at less than 7 months depending on the season. Just the nature of the beast. We go every year for Food&Wine, and while we own at SSR (and love it, BTW), we have booked BWV 3 times in the last 4 years. The one year we didn't book BWV, we booked a 1 bedroom at BCV. All at exactly the 7 month mark. I admit that we may not be the best guest to compare to, since our kids are grown and married, it's just the 2 of us for the majority of our trips. And even with just the 2 of us, we book a 1 bedroom for the majority of the trips as well, as we love the extra room and amenities. It does help that we have plenty of points to do this, and I recognize that most probably aren't as lucky.

Oops... No offense really intended on Saratoga Springs. I actually like it there and it’s pretty, but I‘m a zero-patience guy on some things and the buses destroy me.

And it sounds like we’re not dissimilar either as it’s just the Mrs and me and we’re the same way on the one bedrooms and Food and Wine. But we are shy on points (200). I suspect that may actually be a pain point I hadn‘t thought of, because with the shift we can’t “point-afford” to go when we want in a room we want, compounded by the being proactive in booking at 11, vs last minute. BUT, I like your tactic on 11 and move at 7.

Sincere thanks for the thoughts and info!

 

[Mousse']

Onsite guests account for a minority of WDW park guests. The increase in park guests isn’t solely being driven by those staying onsite. Thus your “over-selling” definition doesn’t really apply to resort rooms and DVC membership.Whilst the number of hotel rooms, including DVC, has been increased massively, they are simply trying to capture more of the visitors into staying onsite vs offsite.

DVD (or BVTC) own 2-3% of the points at each resort. They can use those points any way they want, so for a whole bunch of studios or 2 GVs (they tend not to use them for GVs afaik). Obviously at Riviera right now they still own far more than that and will do until it is all declared for sale.

The bungalows at the Poly don’t have as much impact as you might think, because there are so many studios there. The cabins at CCV do have a massive impact because there are fewer studios. So members who only have enough points for a studio have to book right at 11 months (and often need to walk).

In general I think the lower minimum buy-in direct has had a big impact on demand for studios particularly. And then you have people who add on a small number of points and later on sell the contract to a new member who now has even fewer points in total than a new direct buyer.

Fixed weeks at the newer resorts also have an impact because they take rooms out of the availability pool.

You clearly know your stuff! A few questions if I may:

1.) What you’ve said on the growth makes sense (getting more folks to stay on property), but what do you think is driving the increased overall attendance to the resort? It isn’t because it’s a less expensive experience (say 2005 vs 2019). And arguably price up, pleasure down yet still more people.

2.) Good info on the ownership - really only 2-3% on a mature resort? Wow... Do you think that could actually be the problem that there are two many points in the formula for a mature resort (i.e. The reason in the past it seemed better was because there were a lot of unsold points in the pool that went unused....

... running with that thought, now all the points for a given resort are in circulation to be used, the members at a resort and the foreign members (like BCV booking at the GFV) are “fighting“ to get the room they want when they want it. That is made worse by the most popular DVC locations all being mature. That effectively forces all the non-preplanners like me to not be able to use their points, making them seem less valuable. Compound that with the contrast in the memories vs current experience, having to ”settle” for some place you really don’t want to stay or spend a ton of points for overkill (like a treehouse or Water Bungallo .... really loved them both but they burned A LOT of points for two people on a short stay), leaving you likely where I am now... Very sorry if this obvious, but it kind of just became clear to me, IF I’m even getting it right.

Is that why DVC is messing around with the Riviera members not being able to book in the older DVCs? (Not invested or educated on this so pardon me if I’m saying something totally wrong). Is there hope to “solve“ this “situation“ for people like me?

Moral of the story:
- If you’re not a long term planner, the system has a lot less tolerance for you now that it’s more mature
- Growth in general has changed the Disney experience quite a bit, and it likely isn’t coming back
(I’m not firm on the not coming back as I’m not sure on the why on all the growth...)


(...sounds like I should sell and just do resort stays every few years. I’ll likely wait until post-COVID hoping the value will go up... that’s a sad but, time rolls on)

[You and LuvtheGoof have been awesome and patient, so sincere thanks and don’t forget to take your “good-person, gold star” ]

 

[LuvtheGoof]

Oops... No offense really intended on Saratoga Springs. I actually like it there and it’s pretty, but I‘m a zero-patience guy on some things and the buses destroy me.

And it sounds like we’re not dissimilar either as it’s just the Mrs and me and we’re the same way on the one bedrooms and Food and Wine. But we are shy on points (200). I suspect that may actually be a pain point I hadn‘t thought of, because with the shift we can’t “point-afford” to go when we want in a room we want, compounded by the being proactive in booking at 11, vs last minute. BUT, I like your tactic on 11 and move at 7.

Sincere thanks for the thoughts and info!

No offense taken at all about Saratoga. We understand it's not everyone's cup of tea. We love it due to being quiet and a bit out of the way after a park day. We always stay in the Grandstand section, since it is the first one for bus pick up and drop off to the parks. There is also a nice back path to the West Side of DS that we like taking. Takes less than 10 minutes to walk there.

We also want to stay at every DVC resort at some point. We have our first stay at BLT in a few months. It's definitely not our cup of tea at all, but we will stay there once to add it to the list. We only have a few left. VB will probably be the last (we have already stayed at VGC and Aulani). We are lucky with several hundred points that we don't have any issue with running out, but we do have to stay in a Studio when we know that a more expensive trip is coming up, and we need more for that stay.

 

[correcaminos]

Onsite guests account for a minority of WDW park guests. The increase in park guests isn’t solely being driven by those staying onsite. Thus your “over-selling” definition doesn’t really apply to resort rooms and DVC membership.Whilst the number of hotel rooms, including DVC, has been increased massively, they are simply trying to capture more of the visitors into staying onsite vs offsite.

DVD (or BVTC) own 2-3% of the points at each resort. They can use those points any way they want, so for a whole bunch of studios or 2 GVs (they tend not to use them for GVs afaik). Obviously at Riviera right now they still own far more than that and will do until it is all declared for sale.

The bungalows at the Poly don’t have as much impact as you might think, because there are so many studios there. The cabins at CCV do have a massive impact because there are fewer studios. So members who only have enough points for a studio have to book right at 11 months (and often need to walk).

In general I think the lower minimum buy-in direct has had a big impact on demand for studios particularly. And then you have people who add on a small number of points and later on sell the contract to a new member who now has even fewer points in total than a new direct buyer.

Fixed weeks at the newer resorts also have an impact because they take rooms out of the availability pool.

You said it all perfectly and echos my thoughts on changes in booking.

I will say I am seeing tighter than usual booking for summer. I assume this is due to excessive points and hope for more normal with vaccines.

 

[correcaminos]

You clearly know your stuff! A few questions if I may:

1.) What you’ve said on the growth makes sense (getting more folks to stay on property), but what do you think is driving the increased overall attendance to the resort? It isn’t because it’s a less expensive experience (say 2005 vs 2019). And arguably price up, pleasure down yet still more people.

2.) Good info on the ownership - really only 2-3% on a mature resort? Wow... Do you think that could actually be the problem that there are two many points in the formula for a mature resort (i.e. The reason in the past it seemed better was because there were a lot of unsold points in the pool that went unused....

... running with that thought, now all the points for a given resort are in circulation to be used, the members at a resort and the foreign members (like BCV booking at the GFV) are “fighting“ to get the room they want when they want it. That is made worse by the most popular DVC locations all being mature. That effectively forces all the non-preplanners like me to not be able to use their points, making them seem less valuable. Compound that with the contrast in the memories vs current experience, having to ”settle” for some place you really don’t want to stay or spend a ton of points for overkill (like a treehouse or Water Bungallo .... really loved them both but they burned A LOT of points for two people on a short stay), leaving you likely where I am now... Very sorry if this obvious, but it kind of just became clear to me, IF I’m even getting it right.

Is that why DVC is messing around with the Riviera members not being able to book in the older DVCs? (Not invested or educated on this so pardon me if I’m saying something totally wrong). Is there hope to “solve“ this “situation“ for people like me?

Moral of the story:
- If you’re not a long term planner, the system has a lot less tolerance for you now that it’s more mature
- Growth in general has changed the Disney experience quite a bit, and it likely isn’t coming back
(I’m not firm on the not coming back as I’m not sure on the why on all the growth...)


(...sounds like I should sell and just do resort stays every few years. I’ll likely wait until post-COVID hoping the value will go up... that’s a sad but, time rolls on)

[You and LuvtheGoof have been awesome and patient, so sincere thanks and don’t forget to take your “good-person, gold star” ]

The 2-3% is timeshare law. It's been that way since day 1

The Riviera restrictions are incentives to buy direct. Nothing more.

Increased attendance is marketing and making people think they have to go. With the keeping up with the Joneses mentality it now seems to be a must do for all.

 

[nickys]

You clearly know your stuff! A few questions if I may:

1.) What you’ve said on the growth makes sense (getting more folks to stay on property), but what do you think is driving the increased overall attendance to the resort? It isn’t because it’s a less expensive experience (say 2005 vs 2019). And arguably price up, pleasure down yet still more people.

2.) Good info on the ownership - really only 2-3% on a mature resort? Wow... Do you think that could actually be the problem that there are two many points in the formula for a mature resort (i.e. The reason in the past it seemed better was because there were a lot of unsold points in the pool that went unused....

... running with that thought, now all the points for a given resort are in circulation to be used, the members at a resort and the foreign members (like BCV booking at the GFV) are “fighting“ to get the room they want when they want it. That is made worse by the most popular DVC locations all being mature. That effectively forces all the non-preplanners like me to not be able to use their points, making them seem less valuable. Compound that with the contrast in the memories vs current experience, having to ”settle” for some place you really don’t want to stay or spend a ton of points for overkill (like a treehouse or Water Bungallo .... really loved them both but they burned A LOT of points for two people on a short stay), leaving you likely where I am now... Very sorry if this obvious, but it kind of just became clear to me, IF I’m even getting it right.

Is that why DVC is messing around with the Riviera members not being able to book in the older DVCs? (Not invested or educated on this so pardon me if I’m saying something totally wrong). Is there hope to “solve“ this “situation“ for people like me?

Moral of the story:
- If you’re not a long term planner, the system has a lot less tolerance for you now that it’s more mature
- Growth in general has changed the Disney experience quite a bit, and it likely isn’t coming back
(I’m not firm on the not coming back as I’m not sure on the why on all the growth...)


(...sounds like I should sell and just do resort stays every few years. I’ll likely wait until post-COVID hoping the value will go up... that’s a sad but, time rolls on)

[You and LuvtheGoof have been awesome and patient, so sincere thanks and don’t forget to take your “good-person, gold star” ]

Points are sold to allow every room to be booked pretty much year round. Occupancy is around 95% at DVC resorts. So owning points doesn’t guarantee you the room you want, when you want. New resorts don’t change that if you meant DVC resorts.

What may have made an impact is the growth in the rental market. Where previously people who couldn’t go may well have just let their points go to waste, now more owners are aware they can rent a reservation to someone else, with brokers available to do the leg work for them if they wish.

For example we should have been there now, four years after our last trip. Covid put an end to that and for the last couple of years I’ve rented out many of my points and gifted others to friends. Fingers crossed we can come back next year. Whereas in the early days of our membership we lost a couple of years worth of points and later used RCI between our WDW trips.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Well, I don't know whether it is due to COVID or not, but you can book either a Studio or 1 Bedroom at every single DVC resort, with the one exception of VGF for Jan 30 thru Feb 7 right now - barely a month out. You haven't mentioned how large your typical party is, so didn't check for 2 bedrooms.

Yes, when we first joined we could easily get a reservation at 2-3 months out for most resorts, but we just recognize that those days are gone, and we go with the flow. We always book SSR at the 11 month mark, to be sure we have a reservation for the week that we want, and then change at 7 months. To date, the only resort we haven't been able to book is CCV. While we haven't stayed at Riviera as of yet, we can see availability for the times we want to go, so we know we'll get there eventually - especially once DVD declares more rooms for DVC members to book. So the "Happy" is still definitely there for us.

I will agree that because they have added more DVC resorts, resulting in many more owners, that certain resorts can be hard to book at less than 7 months depending on the season. Just the nature of the beast. We go every year for Food&Wine, and while we own at SSR (and love it, BTW), we have booked BWV 3 times in the last 4 years. The one year we didn't book BWV, we booked a 1 bedroom at BCV. All at exactly the 7 month mark. I admit that we may not be the best guest to compare to, since our kids are grown and married, it's just the 2 of us for the majority of our trips. And even with just the 2 of us, we book a 1 bedroom for the majority of the trips as well, as we love the extra room and amenities. It does help that we have plenty of points to do this, and I recognize that most probably aren't as lucky.

That’s definitely COVID. You can routinely book last minute right now: these are stays people booked thinking, “surely we will be back to normal by X date!” When it becomes clear things aren’t back to normal and there are mandatory quarantines, people push off their trips again.

 

[Phonedave]

Well, I don't know whether it is due to COVID or not, but you can book either a Studio or 1 Bedroom at every single DVC resort, with the one exception of VGF for Jan 30 thru Feb 7 right now - barely a month out. You haven't mentioned how large your typical party is, so didn't check for 2 bedrooms.

Yes, when we first joined we could easily get a reservation at 2-3 months out for most resorts, but we just recognize that those days are gone, and we go with the flow. We always book SSR at the 11 month mark, to be sure we have a reservation for the week that we want, and then change at 7 months. To date, the only resort we haven't been able to book is CCV. While we haven't stayed at Riviera as of yet, we can see availability for the times we want to go, so we know we'll get there eventually - especially once DVD declares more rooms for DVC members to book. So the "Happy" is still definitely there for us.

I will agree that because they have added more DVC resorts, resulting in many more owners, that certain resorts can be hard to book at less than 7 months depending on the season. Just the nature of the beast. We go every year for Food&Wine, and while we own at SSR (and love it, BTW), we have booked BWV 3 times in the last 4 years. The one year we didn't book BWV, we booked a 1 bedroom at BCV. All at exactly the 7 month mark. I admit that we may not be the best guest to compare to, since our kids are grown and married, it's just the 2 of us for the majority of our trips. And even with just the 2 of us, we book a 1 bedroom for the majority of the trips as well, as we love the extra room and amenities. It does help that we have plenty of points to do this, and I recognize that most probably aren't as lucky.

I am not as lucky as you in getting EPCOT resorts during F&W with my SSR contract, but I suspect that it is because I am always trying to book during "Jersey Week" which is a madhouse anyway. Unfortunately, since my wife is a teacher, we are stuck with those dates.

I have always been abele to get into SSR at that time though. Sometimes we get into EPCOT, sometimes not.