Do FastPasses create longer waits or do they not have any affect at all?

[TrojanUSC]

why is it silly to pay for your food up front and make it super convenient while at WDW. It also helps me not spend the money I have for eating. If I didn't have the dining plan I might spend the money on something else.

Because you pay the maximum meal price per meal and are forced to use every entitlement. Want a salad instead of a steak at that sit-down meal? You're making a charitable donation to Disney. Want to skip breakfast and sleep in? Another donation. Don't want multiple snacks a day? More donation.

They are strong-arming you into paying for the most expensive item on every menu and not giving you a chance to get your money back if you skip a couple meals.

For the life of me I can't figure out why someone wouldn't just budget what they think to spend on F&B and put it on Disney gift cards or in a special account... that way whatever you have left doesn't turn into a pumpkin at midnight on checkout day.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Anyone who has ever worked a popular attraction (and cares about their job enough to pay attention/question things) will tell you that, without a doubt, Fastpass artificially inflates the standby line drastically.

Basically, the average guest needs to utilize Fastpass, when it is in use, to experience the same number of attractions as they would if Fastpass was not in use.

A small percentage of guests can experience slightly more by being Fastpass "power users", AKA knowing the system well and how to game it. But this also involves a lot of extra work and knowledge.

 

[phillip9698]

why is it silly to pay for your food up front and make it super convenient while at WDW. It also helps me not spend the money I have for eating. If I didn't have the dining plan I might spend the money on something else.

You are paying a lot extra for the convenience. Disney is pricing it in such a way that you are pre-paying for the most expensive items at every meal. They know people will end up using those snack credits on stale rice crispy treats to take home instead of more costly items elsewhere in the park. Disney is banking on the fact that people aren't going to character breakfasts and buffets every morning followed by a steak for lunch and another steak for dinner for 6 days straight. But that's what they are charging you for.

 

[mergatroid]

Anyone who has ever worked a popular attraction (and cares about their job enough to pay attention/question things) will tell you that, without a doubt, Fastpass artificially inflates the standby line drastically.

Basically, the average guest needs to utilize Fastpass, when it is in use, to experience the same number of attractions as they would if Fastpass was not in use.

A small percentage of guests can experience slightly more by being Fastpass "power users", AKA knowing the system well and how to game it. But this also involves a lot of extra work and knowledge.

We used FP+ efficiently, but that's partly down to how we visit the parks. Going for 2-3 weeks at a time we make many visits but rarely for more than 4 hours a time. We also know which rides have workable standy by lines at which times, so for us FP+ really helped out as we knew how to use it and for which attractions.

 

[Goofyernmost]

With the no fastpass system the only trick you had to know was to watch which direction the massive crowds went. For example the big ride at MK in those days was Space Mountain. So after rope drop there was a mad dash to Tomorrowland (or to the right at the castle). So you would go to the left and ride one right after another in pretty rapid sequence until you got around to the Small World area and then the Space Mtn. crowd was working their way back. Then you would squeeze your way through that bottle neck without stopping and go to attractions past the bottle neck. Then you could later on, stroll back to the Small World, Peter Pan, HoP and Haunted mansion after the larger crowd has passed through. You still had queue lines to deal with but all were manageable and relatively quick.

 

[tl77]

There are only so many FP+ for each ride each day. When you go to book a FP+ you only get certain "available windows of time" to choose from... So No FP+ doesn't not make the wait times any longer than they would have been without it, if anything it limits the over all wait time.

The only thing Disney could do to reduce wait times is "Build More Rides/Attractions" in each park, but they don't bother to do that, they just invented the FP+ system as a kind of "band-aid" for the massively growing crowds of the past 20-30 years. The place is way more popular/crowded than it was in the 1980's, the number of resort hotels and DVC on property has grown in the past 30 years, but the parks haven't grown much at since then, if anything Epcot has lower capacity than it did in the 1980's with all the massive dark rides replaced by much lower capacity thrill rides.

Count how many rides Disneyland park has vs Magic Kingdom park... Or list all the times that things were announced but never happened in WDW because one of the new oerseas parks failed to make money... remember "The Disney Decade" that didn't happen in the 1990's? ...those are the real problem with "wait times" at WDW

 

[Tom Morrow]

There are only so many FP+ for each ride each day. When you go to book a FP+ you only get certain "available windows of time" to choose from... So No FP+ doesn't not make the wait times any longer than they would have been without it, if anything it limits the over all wait time.

Disney distributes enough Fastpasses to account for 80% of every attraction's hourly capacity. When you use Fastpass, you are actually using the line that the majority of riders are using. Think of how fast the Fastpass lines go compared to the standby lines. When there is only one line, it moves even faster than that.

You also can't make the argument that "everyone in the Fastpass line would just be in the standby line", because Fastpass allows for a continuously rolling percentage of the hourly capacity to ride before you when you queue up in a standby line than would be physically possible with only one line.

For instance, let's take Expedition Everest, which can handle just about 2,000 riders per hour. Let's say there's only one line, 2,000 people are waiting in it, and no Fastpass or reservation system. Someone arriving and joining the queue will wait about one hour. However, when you take that same line of 2,000 people and add in a second line that continuously accepts a rolling 80% of 2,000, even when most of these people arrived at the attraction after you, you are now waiting for much, much longer. It's also worth noting that the Expedition Everest queue can't even hold 2,000 people because it was designed knowing that most riders would be entering through the Fastpass queue.

 

[Disstevefan1]

Right up there with: “Does the dining plan save you any money?”

For the record, No the dining plan does not save you any money

 

[Disstevefan1]

Copied from other thread: This is quite possibly the most fascinating debate I have watched unfold in a WDW forum. I for one, am an avid FP+ user and can agree with others who have stated that it has afforded me the ability to ride every ride I want, every trip, without ever waiting more than 20 minutes for anything (I did wait an hour for BTM once but it was my first trip and I didnt know any better yet). This being said, I understand that my experience is not typical and even though anyone could do it, the majority of people don't because they either do not know that this is possible or are not interested in the research/planning that is involved. That is ok, they are allowed to want their Disney World experience to be the way that they want to enjoy it. The question of whether FP+ increases standby wait times (i believe) is irrelevant, the only pertinent question should be either overall wait time (including standby + FP rides) per day, or alternatively, the avg total number of rides experienced by a guest normalized by typical daily total wait time. The mathematics modeling is impossible, as far as I know, to have anything resembling a full picture, simply because there is not enough data available to the public. Way too many assumptions need to be made that render any answer easily manipulated to the desired outcome. However, there is much that can be accomplished with theory which I strongly believe is at the heart of why Disney developed the fastpass+ system as they have (but they also have the concrete data to back it up with full analysis). I believe that standby wait times do increase with fastpass+ but likely only marginally due to the effects discussed here already. It is 100% objective fact that the rate of standby persons let into the ride is drastically reduced in the presence of fastpass, I do not know the exact numbers but recall touringplans data suggesting somewhere in the range of 4-7 FP / 1 standby. On its face, this would seemingly increase the standby wait time 4-7x, it does not. It does not because the pool of standby persons is dramatically decreased... and more importantly, if participating in fastpass+, a number of the people in that standby line are essentially in two lines concurrently... the problem is we cannot say conclusively how much this difference is. I understand that Disney's goal was two-fold. Guest experience has shown that a golden number of attractions per day needs to be experienced in order to be satisfied, I believe it is somewhere in the realm of 7-8. Also, standby lines are the only place in the entire WDW bubble that a guest is not available to spend money. Theoretically, FP+ solves both of these. Similarly, the virtual queue system utilized by ROTR has been implemented explicitly for this reason. Personally, I do not like this system because I feel that a guest that pays what they pay, wanting to experience this, should have the option to wait as long as they are personally willing in order to ride it... which would mean I likely wouldn't ride it lol. In the current system, its left only to chance. But from disney's perspective, it frees people up so that they are not stuck in a queue for hours where they cannot spend more money. Personally, if they move to FP$ at the prices rumored (100-300 per guest per day)... I will be devastated but will absolutely continue going to my happy place; I just expect to modify my expectations and maybe take the opportunity to experience other parts of what makes disney special. I can see splurging here or there for some extra access maybe on one day but it depends... they may be pricing me out- if at 100 i might do a day but definitely not at 300... family of 4 here! I do not believe that with highly reduced FP+, or none at all, that we will see wait times comparable to what has been present in the parks lately with reduced capacity. I also cant imagine how Disney could pull this off... many weeks of the year we see wild standby wait times (certainly inflated due to FP+) but I cant imagine guest satisfaction of waiting extraordinarily long lines for everything because they lack instant access to anything. I believe it would be a disaster. I believe Disney wants to have a system that maximizes guest experience while optimizing flow through the park and time free to spend money elsewhere... I believe that FP+ is the best available option right now. Could it be better? Probably, and I hope that this is where Disney going with any FP+ return and/or genie implementation. WDW is different, it is not Universal, cedar point, or six flags. We have always payed for FP+, look at your ticket prices! I see close to zero chance they move to fully paid. I think traditional FP+ will be brought back as it was at least for time being but also wouldn't be surprised too much if they come back with a hybrid system. A hybrid system could allow most peoples experience to essentially not change at all... they did 3 FP before and still do 3 FP now... while the super users (like me) will not have the same experience, well get 3 like everyone else and the rest of the fastpasses we typically blow through will be replaced with paying guests...

I can’t read this if it’s not broken into paragraphs

 

[G00fyDad]

For the record, No the dining plan does not save you any money

It does if it's free.

 

[Doug Means]

You are paying a lot extra for the convenience. Disney is pricing it in such a way that you are pre-paying for the most expensive items at every meal. They know people will end up using those snack credits on stale rice crispy treats to take home instead of more costly items elsewhere in the park. Disney is banking on the fact that people aren't going to character breakfasts and buffets every morning followed by a steak for lunch and another steak for dinner for 6 days straight. But that's what they are charging you for.

i understand what you are saying. My family has done WDW twice where we budgeted the money and planned ahead without the dining plan, and we have done it 3 times with the lowest plan once, and the medium plan twice. Basically for us, the money came out to pretty much the same. So, that being said, for us, the convenience of paying ahead and planning for the best for what we can get, it is nice for us.

 

[Doug Means]

Because you pay the maximum meal price per meal and are forced to use every entitlement. Want a salad instead of a steak at that sit-down meal? You're making a charitable donation to Disney. Want to skip breakfast and sleep in? Another donation. Don't want multiple snacks a day? More donation.

They are strong-arming you into paying for the most expensive item on every menu and not giving you a chance to get your money back if you skip a couple meals.

For the life of me I can't figure out why someone wouldn't just budget what they think to spend on F&B and put it on Disney gift cards or in a special account... that way whatever you have left doesn't turn into a pumpkin at midnight on checkout day.

i understand what you are saying. My family has done WDW twice where we budgeted the money and planned ahead without the dining plan, and we have done it 3 times with the lowest plan once, and the medium plan twice. Basically for us, the money came out to pretty much the same. So, that being said, for us, the convenience of paying ahead and planning for the best for what we can get, it is nice for us. Disney has not strong armed us for sure.

 

[Walt Disney1955]

I think the fastpass is good solely for the people with the fastpass.

Here is my theory. Lines were long back in the day too, but I get the feeling they at least moved quicker. In other words there seemed to be a more steady movement happening regularly in the line ups. With a fastpass it seems as if the line comes to a standstill for the people without a fastpass. So I really don't think it changes much at all. You might get into some rides a lot quicker with a fastpass, but the rides without a fastpass you don't get in as fast as you would normally because.............................you have to wait for the people with fastpasses.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I think the fastpass is good solely for the people with the fastpass.

Here is my theory. Lines were long back in the day too, but I get the feeling they at least moved quicker. In other words there seemed to be a more steady movement happening regularly in the line ups. With a fastpass it seems as if the line comes to a standstill for the people without a fastpass. So I really don't think it changes much at all. You might get into some rides a lot quicker with a fastpass, but the rides without a fastpass you don't get in as fast as you would normally because.............................you have to wait for the people with fastpasses.

That wasn't a feeling that was a fact. If you stepped into a 100 person queue that had a capacity of one hundred people per hour, you would be on that ride in an hour barring a breakdown. If you were the 100th person line and along side it was a FP line and after you got in the standby line, fifty people showed up in the FP line and went in ahead of you, your time in that 100 person line just when to 1.5 hours. It isn't even complicated math. It is more like "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction".

 

[rreading]

It's also worth noting that the Expedition Everest queue can't even hold 2,000 people because it was designed knowing that most riders would be entering through the Fastpass queue.

This was totally evident this June. Everest’s line carried almost to Nemo. Smuggler’s Run and Kilimanjaro Safaris lines went backstage to find space. Maybe the stores were less crowded but looking for the back of the line was a royal pain and the queues spilling everywhere was a nuisance.

To me, a balance makes sense. Why do they need to offer 80% of the ride capacity to FP?

 

[el_super]

However, when you take that same line of 2,000 people and add in a second line that continuously accepts a rolling 80% of 2,000, even when most of these people arrived at the attraction after you, you are now waiting for much, much longer. It's also worth noting that the Expedition Everest queue can't even hold 2,000 people because it was designed knowing that most riders would be entering through the Fastpass queue.

Yeah but this is only a small part of the whole Fastpass argument. It's just as easy to say that those 1,600 people got their fastpasses months before the other 400, and that Fastpass is just implementing a different flavor of the same first-come, first-served concept that has been in place for decades. Yeah that group of 400 people will have a longer wait than the 1600 that had Fastpass, but for all intents and purposes, they were there first.

The real "problems" with Fastpass happen, when people use a Fastpass for Everest, ride with a minimal 5-10 minute wait, and then jump back in line for a second ride because the line is only 45 minutes. People get two rides for the price of one essentially, and where the demand to ride Everest may have just been enough for one ride per person, now its enough for two. That's putting extra demand on the attractions.

When Fastpass was being thought up back in the 90s, the idea that people would still want to wait 40 to 60 minutes for a ride was not really being considered. The idea was that people would use the freedom gained by Fastpass to visit shops and restaurants and otherwise de-stress from being in line... not jump back into another line. Because visitors militantly see # of attractions as the deciding value factor in the day, they will continue to push for more rides completed.

That's why all the lines everywhere else end up creeping up. Fastpass fundamentally altered the demand profile for attractions (in a way that mostly favors Disney).

To me, a balance makes sense. Why do they need to offer 80% of the ride capacity to FP?

If Disney had their way, they would make attractions 100% Fastpass and tell you which attractions to ride in which order. Spreading out capacity to underutilized facilities is still the end-goal here. The number of people in which line isn't really consequential at the end of the day.

Of course, you could talk about how Fastpass demand is strong enough that people will book them MONTHS in advance, or how the general culture of tiering attractions has caused an artificial scarcity of major attractions.... The bigger issues of Fastpass are harder to discuss because we don't have the numbers or experience to really quantify those problems.

 

[G00fyDad]

I'm so glad that fastpass doesn't exist right now otherwise there'd be extremely long wait times at Disney attractions.

(Right now)

 

[Disstevefan1]

It does if it's free.

I guess technically, if you strategically order the most expensive food, and a lot of it, and don’t skip a meal, then, on paper, I guess It’s possible it makes up for paying rack price for the room.

I think the “free dining plan” is really there so WDW can dumb down all the menus and raise the prices, so when you are not on the free dining, they can really make the money.

 

[G00fyDad]

I guess technically, if you strategically order the most expensive food, and a lot of it, and don’t skip a meal, then, on paper, I guess It’s possible it makes up for paying rack price for the room.

I think the “free dining plan” is really there so WDW can dumb down all the menus and raise the prices, so when you are not on the free dining, they can really make the money.

Why do people always say that? The price for my package doesn't change. I booked the package more than a year out at $X and the one time I did get free dining my package still cost $X. I didn't have to eat a ton of food. We already go to one table service everyday anyway as well as one quick service. We usually eat breakfast in the room so the dining plan typically would have balanced out anyway. I've only paid for the dining plan once and I've gotten it free once. When I got it for free it just took away the cost I had to set aside for food. Disney didn't raise the price of my package because I got the dining plan for free. Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

 

[Disstevefan1]

Why do people always say that? The price for my package doesn't change. I booked the package more than a year out at $X and the one time I did get free dining my package still cost $X. I didn't have to eat a ton of food. We already go to one table service everyday anyway as well as one quick service. We usually eat breakfast in the room so the dining plan typically would have balanced out anyway. I've only paid for the dining plan once and I've gotten it free once. When I got it for free it just took away the cost I had to set aside for food. Disney didn't raise the price of my package because I got the dining plan for free. Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

I always thought you had to pay a non discounted room rate to get free dining. In your case, you already booked (at whatever room rate) then got free dining. That’s excellent and for you literally free. I did not know it worked that way. I stand corrected. Thanks for the info.